Issue 14: Architect Discussion
By
7thCynic,
Posted on: 2009-02-13 24:50 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
We are all gonna have to wait til Live Beta to find out I guess.
It is pretty useless getting all worked up, and having arguments in this thread, when we have absolutely no concrete information to guide our arguments.
(Myself included)
Black-Strike: lvl 50 AR/Dark Corruptor
Brutally Beautiful: lvl 50 BA/Inv Brute
Seared Earth: lvl 50 EC/EA Dominator
Yashi Onuku: lvl 50 Ninja Blade/Ninjitsu Stalker
Death-Widow: lvl 50 Night Widow
There's no point in waiting for Live Beta. I sincerely doubt it will change, or that they even care, but I would be remiss to myself if I didn't at least try.
Defeat badges were about my only real use for the MA. I have no ability to craft convincing stories, so I'll just make whatever needs to be made for whatever badges are attached to it and move on to the next thing to do.
Like I said, they are wasting a perfect opportunity to mitigate some of their past mistakes re: badges, for no apparent gain.
I don't have a really strong position on badge credit in architect missions, but I'm wary of 1) any reason being added to not do architect missions, and 2) another ifandbut exception to rules that I'll have to type out in Help channel to people confused by lack of badge progress.
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Ok Devs, can we get some sort of reasoning on why you are not allowing mobs to give badge credit in MA missions beyond, "Because we said so"?
Srsly.
It would be a perfect opportunity to legitimize certain badges, such as Hordelings/Hellfrosts/etc for Heroes, and Outcasts/Trolls/etc for Villains. And I believe there was a comment by Positron about the Cabal defeat badge for Villains (people defeating the summoned Amy pet getting the bar to show up) and how it would be disabled till something could "legitimize" earning it beyond farming that single pet.
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Well you have to remember these are the same Devs who just a few weeks ago tried to have the Reformed badge made unearnable by heroes via a stealth change until people had to 'respectfully suggest' that doing so would be an unreasonable bit of revisionism on their part. Fortunately the Devs agreed and "unchanged" their thoughts on that matter. Clearly the Devs' vision of badge earning in this game has been "colorful" to say the least. 
While I agree that the MA could make a few currently annoying badges easier to get it would also potentially make many other badges incredibly trivial to get. We all know that the instant the Devs ever allowed the MA missions to let us to get any defeat badge we wanted there'd be a whole slew of simple "shooting fish in a barrel" styled one-shot missions that would let anyone farm those badges in minutes.
Basically it'd be nice if there was an easier way to get the few badges you mentioned. But in order to make the rest of them not become a complete joke I have to reluctantly agree with the Devs' decision not allow MA missions to grant defeat badges. *shrugs*
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And I have to say, in the words of Garfield,
"Big fat hairy, DEAL".
So what if some become "trivially easy" to get. Unless the MA allows for the placement of individual mob types, i.e. "This is a lt, this is a minion, this is an underling", there is no real difference between farming a MA mission and street-sweeping cherry picking mob requirements.
And unless I've missed a memo, that kind of mob placement isn't going to be possible.
Edit - At level 50, getting a Troll boss badge, or a Pumicite badge for a Hero, or getting a Goldbricker badge or a Hordeling badge for a Villain is already "trivially easy". Making an artificial distinction that somehow the MA "trivially easy" is different than aforementioned "trivially easy" is just wishful thinking.
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As I have been told by a player that has played since beta, the Devs frown upon "farming" and that is why the MA more than likely will not count towards defeat badges. As was stated it would make most (well all) defeat badges trivial, the big fat hariy deal has nothing to do with it. It makes sense, because Devs (IMO) know their base and they know that a great many of us will exploit (or "break" the game if you will which goes against the EULA) the MA to get the defeat badges.
Does that answer your question, as to why MA more than likely will never be opened up to allow for defeat badges to be earned? Besides what would the point of doing the actual game content if all you did was MA missions??? That would literally be the end of the game.
You only fail if you give up. - Dana Scully
Time Jesum Transeuntum Et Non Riverentum - Nick Cave
We're not just destroyers, at the same time we can be saviors. - Allen Walker
is there going to be the ability to design co-op missions?
Political correctness is a stench in the nose of God. Yes, your God(s) also.
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How about we talk about MA and story arcs, and the possibilities of some really good homegrown writing. The last few pages of this thread just seem to be arguing about badges.
I for one am really excited about not only creating some good stories but experiencing the quality of work from others.
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I've already got a handful of different ideas that I should probably get to work on now rather than later. Right now, I'm most interested to see if people are planning to create their own contacts or if they're going to use existing contacts for most of their missions!
I haven't really thought of anything that I want to put on a specific contact yet.
J/ Wilde
Still hate the visit Winscott mission- make it dropable, have it give actual exp or remove it altogether. PS- Down knows who you are.
J/ Wilde/ / AIL - Celebrating five years!
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is there going to be the ability to design co-op missions?
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Now THAT is a great question! I'd LOVE that ability! 
"The One"
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
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As I have been told by a player that has played since beta, the Devs frown upon "farming" and that is why the MA more than likely will not count towards defeat badges. As was stated it would make most (well all) defeat badges trivial, the big fat hariy deal has nothing to do with it. It makes sense, because Devs (IMO) know their base and they know that a great many of us will exploit (or "break" the game if you will which goes against the EULA) the MA to get the defeat badges.
Does that answer your question, as to why MA more than likely will never be opened up to allow for defeat badges to be earned? Besides what would the point of doing the actual game content if all you did was MA missions??? That would literally be the end of the game.
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Frown upon farming? And yet, that's exactly what they encourage by putting in things like merits, purples that only drop from minions at level 50, Popular/Leader, etc.
Oh give me a break. "That would literally be the end of the game"? Overreact much? You're missing a "DooOOOOooOOmMM!!" in there.
What would be "exploitive" about it? Answer: nothing. That word gets thrown around WAY too much. There is no difference in farming a MA map and farming Gaussian's arc for Longbow for instance. And again, making the artificial distinction that somehow MA maps are better or worse than contact/paper/radio missions for doing the exact same thing is facetious.
As Rigel_Kent said, it's yet another ifandbut exception and a reason NOT to use something they are putting in an excessive amount of time to introduce.
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As I have been told by a player that has played since beta, the Devs frown upon "farming" and that is why the MA more than likely will not count towards defeat badges. As was stated it would make most (well all) defeat badges trivial, the big fat hariy deal has nothing to do with it. It makes sense, because Devs (IMO) know their base and they know that a great many of us will exploit (or "break" the game if you will which goes against the EULA) the MA to get the defeat badges.
Does that answer your question, as to why MA more than likely will never be opened up to allow for defeat badges to be earned? Besides what would the point of doing the actual game content if all you did was MA missions??? That would literally be the end of the game.
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Frown upon farming? And yet, that's exactly what they encourage by putting in things like merits, purples that only drop from minions at level 50, Popular/Leader, etc.
Oh give me a break. "That would literally be the end of the game"? Overreact much? You're missing a "DooOOOOooOOmMM!!" in there.
What would be "exploitive" about it? Answer: nothing. That word gets thrown around WAY too much. There is no difference in farming a MA map and farming Gaussian's arc for Longbow for instance. And again, making the artificial distinction that somehow MA maps are better or worse than contact/paper/radio missions for doing the exact same thing is facetious.
As Rigel_Kent said, it's yet another ifandbut exception and a reason NOT to use something they are putting in an excessive amount of time to introduce.
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LOL, many people play the game for stuff other than farming.
There will be plenty of folks who use it to build real story arcs that folks will want to play. Whether you can build a farm map or not will be irrelevant for many.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
If you think it's so easy to farm elsewhere, do so. We don't want the MA getting cluttered up with various "Go. Hunt. Kill Skulz for badge" maps. Some actual story or entertainment would be far more rewarding, imo.
Badges aren't supposed to be something you just wait in a spawn and farm the same mob for, over and over and over again. It's something of an accomplishment, of, over the span of so many levels, fighting this group so many times, you've killed X amount! Grats!
As opposed to "Go farm moar newb".
The devs will never make things easier, and most certainly never cater towords farmers. At least intentionally.
Check out Krieg Jaeger, and expand on your own character at Virtue verse!
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If you think it's so easy to farm elsewhere, do so. We don't want the MA getting cluttered up with various "Go. Hunt. Kill Skulz for badge" maps. Some actual story or entertainment would be far more rewarding, imo.
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Would you have the same opinion if they also remove Salvage/Merits/Enhancements/Recipes from MA missions? Because if you think "actual story or entertainment would be far more rewarding", then there should be no problem right? You just want the story, right? Anything else isn't necessary.
Better remove those rewards too, since, OMG people might *stage whisper* farm!
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Badges aren't supposed to be something you just wait in a spawn and farm the same mob for, over and over and over again. It's something of an accomplishment, of, over the span of so many levels, fighting this group so many times, you've killed X amount! Grats!
As opposed to "Go farm moar newb".
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Really. I never would've guessed. Wow, you've opened my eyes. I guess people don't farm a Master Illusionist for the badge for that. Or continually run circuits around the SE corner of Talos for BP masks. Or go to Monkey Island. Or sit in front of a mob for the damage badges.
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Would you have the same opinion if they also remove Salvage/Merits/Enhancements/Recipes from MA missions? Because if you think "actual story or entertainment would be far more rewarding", then there should be no problem right? You just want the story, right? Anything else isn't necessary.
Better remove those rewards too, since, OMG people might *stage whisper* farm!
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You are not comparing apples to apples here. Badges are not Drops. Salvage/Enhancements/Recipes are all critical parts of other in game features, such as Bases, the Black Market/Wentworth's, Slotting and building your toon, to list a few.
To make the MA in such a way that absolutely no rewards come from it is to launch a doomed to fail game feature. No one will waste their time if there are no rewards for doing it.
You have stated that you could care less about the MA except in how it can help you get Badges. Well, apparently you believe that it is not going to help you.
I agree with these others that the focus of the MA is Custom Playerbase Content. I look forward to all the Story Arcs peeps will write. I have several decent (I hope) story Arcs in mind myself. These are the Story Arcs I will play. If I load an Arc and it is obviously designed for the Farming of anything, I will opt out. If that function is available.
Do I Farm? Yes. But not Badges.
I try not to form quick opinions of other posters, and have only had one exchange with you. However, it appears that after several different people have offered valid arguments against your "Point of View" on the Badge deal, that you refuse to even consider any suggestion/argument/explanation but your own.
If you don't want to use the MA because it don't cater to your particular desires, then don't use it.
But please quit railing against folks on here that see Badges for what they are, and choose to concentrate on the Intended purpose of the MA.
Black-Strike: lvl 50 AR/Dark Corruptor
Brutally Beautiful: lvl 50 BA/Inv Brute
Seared Earth: lvl 50 EC/EA Dominator
Yashi Onuku: lvl 50 Ninja Blade/Ninjitsu Stalker
Death-Widow: lvl 50 Night Widow
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Would you have the same opinion if they also remove Salvage/Merits/Enhancements/Recipes from MA missions? Because if you think "actual story or entertainment would be far more rewarding", then there should be no problem right? You just want the story, right? Anything else isn't necessary.
Better remove those rewards too, since, OMG people might *stage whisper* farm!
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You are not comparing apples to apples here. Badges are not Drops. Salvage/Enhancements/Recipes are all critical parts of other in game features, such as Bases, the Black Market/Wentworth's, Slotting and building your toon, to list a few.
To make the MA in such a way that absolutely no rewards come from it is to launch a doomed to fail game feature. No one will waste their time if there are no rewards for doing it.
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So...it's alright for people get other rewards, such as Drops, which can affect how your character reacts and interacts with others, but it's not ok for something that does not affect other people to be included? Do you not see anything wrong with that?
And you better believe, there are going to be farm maps galore. <x> Faction of the Month in an open, outdoorsy type map with few obstructions.
Badges, whether you like it or not, are a critical game part for some. Do you know what's kept me playing? Badges and the forum. That's it. After close to five years, I've run the "official" content ad nauseum. Collecting those shinies are the only thing I have an interest in at this point.
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You have stated that you could care less about the MA except in how it can help you get Badges. Well, apparently you believe that it is not going to help you.
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That's right. There's nothing there for me.
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I agree with these others that the focus of the MA is Custom Playerbase Content. I look forward to all the Story Arcs peeps will write. I have several decent (I hope) story Arcs in mind myself. These are the Story Arcs I will play. If I load an Arc and it is obviously designed for the Farming of anything, I will opt out. If that function is available.
Do I Farm? Yes. But not Badges.
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So, you are ok with farming, just not for badges?
Bwah?
And do you not see the solution there? No one would be forcing you to "farm" a badge mission, but for those that want to, it's there.
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I try not to form quick opinions of other posters, and have only had one exchange with you. However, it appears that after several different people have offered valid arguments against your "Point of View" on the Badge deal, that you refuse to even consider any suggestion/argument/explanation but your own.
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That's just it though, they HAVEN'T offered refutation for pretty much any of my claims. All they've put, basically amounts to a fear of farming.
Let's see if I can list the "objections" to it:
1) Fear of farming
2) Clog the system with badge missions
3) Afraid people will get all the defeat badges in a couple hours thus invalidating people doing it the "hard" way
That's pretty much it. If I've missed any, I apologize.
Meanwhile, on the other side of the fence, there is:
1) Removal of the necessity for metagaming certain things
2) Opening up more titles to characters
3) Legitimizing certain badges
4) Potential for more unlockable weapons for characters on either side of the fence
5) Mitigating the effects of previous bad design decisions for some badges
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If you don't want to use the MA because it don't cater to your particular desires, then don't use it.
But please quit railing against folks on here that see Badges for what they are, and choose to concentrate on the Intended purpose of the MA.
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See badges for what they are? Sorry, but that's their interpretation. They are also assigning values to them that are not inherent to them.
The MA offers me essentially nothing. I have no ability to tell stories, I have no illusions that anything I make would be a Hall of Fame or Dev's Choice, so why should I waste my time? With this ONE thing, they are eliminating a section of people that would care to use something that has taken an excessive amount of time to build.
Why would they purposely say to a section of people, "You're not welcome here"?
Edit - But hey, I've said my piece. I'm done. I know it isn't going to change, and I know that because I'm for it, people will come out of the woodwork to shoot down the idea. Heaven forfend anyone actually agreeing with me.
Peace out.
Feel free to continue insulting me, people.
Every feature is not for everyone.
And devs certainly SHOULD NOT be making it easier for folks to find farming options INTENTIONALLY. That would just be idiocy in game design, when they can't deal with the CURRENT farming that's already in the game.
Glad you are not a designer. Your mmo would fail.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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The devs will never make things easier, and most certainly never cater towords farmers. At least intentionally.
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Incidentally the ability to turn off XP has been one of the best tools for the farmer/PLer in recent issues.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Hmmm so lets see (for example) setting a mission up that only has rikti monkeys in it to get the Zookeeper badge isnt an exploit? Besides are there not maps that can essentially be "farmed" already? The argument here is defeat badges, you have stated that you have run the game content "ad nauseum" does that also mean that you have gotten the vast majority of the defeat badges too?
Who's to say how the devs will have the MA setup? At this point it is all speculation and assumptions.
You only fail if you give up. - Dana Scully
Time Jesum Transeuntum Et Non Riverentum - Nick Cave
We're not just destroyers, at the same time we can be saviors. - Allen Walker
From what I read, you still get XP/Inf from MA missions so, MA will be great for making farms for low-mid level characters. Up until the point to where you'd want to start farming for recipe drops later on.
Freak farms at the [censored] when this hits live yo.
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You have stated that you could care less about the MA except in how it can help you get Badges. Well, apparently you believe that it is not going to help you.
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That's right. There's nothing there for me.
[/ QUOTE ]Have you considered that maybe MA will come with a boatload of new badges related to MA, as the devs so often like to do with a new issue release?
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Hmmm so lets see (for example) setting a mission up that only has rikti monkeys in it to get the Zookeeper badge isnt an exploit? Besides are there not maps that can essentially be "farmed" already? The argument here is defeat badges, you have stated that you have run the game content "ad nauseum" does that also mean that you have gotten the vast majority of the defeat badges too?
Who's to say how the devs will have the MA setup? At this point it is all speculation and assumptions.
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Yes, I've gotten the majority of the Defeat badges on my hero (602 total at this point). However, I'd like to get things like Goldbrickers, or Snakes, or the like on her. And would like things like Pumicites on my villain (the title would go quite well her concept as a /FA Brute).
Also, you are working from a flawed premise. Iirc, they stated that players would be unable to specify exactly what spawns show up. You wouldn't be able to go beyond "Spawn <x> faction at <y> point". Meaning normal spawning rules apply and things like placing all monkies or all fake nems would not be possible.
That really is my last comment. 
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You have stated that you could care less about the MA except in how it can help you get Badges. Well, apparently you believe that it is not going to help you.
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That's right. There's nothing there for me.
[/ QUOTE ]Have you considered that maybe MA will come with a boatload of new badges related to MA, as the devs so often like to do with a new issue release?
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I kinda hope not. There's enough badges already. Lets get the new mission/story content out, get the MA running and more fixes.
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If you think it's so easy to farm elsewhere, do so. We don't want the MA getting cluttered up with various "Go. Hunt. Kill Skulz for badge" maps. Some actual story or entertainment would be far more rewarding, imo.
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Would you have the same opinion if they also remove Salvage/Merits/Enhancements/Recipes from MA missions? Because if you think "actual story or entertainment would be far more rewarding", then there should be no problem right? You just want the story, right? Anything else isn't necessary.
Better remove those rewards too, since, OMG people might *stage whisper* farm!
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Badges aren't supposed to be something you just wait in a spawn and farm the same mob for, over and over and over again. It's something of an accomplishment, of, over the span of so many levels, fighting this group so many times, you've killed X amount! Grats!
As opposed to "Go farm moar newb".
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Really. I never would've guessed. Wow, you've opened my eyes. I guess people don't farm a Master Illusionist for the badge for that. Or continually run circuits around the SE corner of Talos for BP masks. Or go to Monkey Island. Or sit in front of a mob for the damage badges.
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But they have removed the other rewards besides xp for defeating individual mobs for the MA missions. The only attraction next to regular missions is to follow a cool story line. I think that will get old.
At least let us farm the "defeat X mobs" badges needed for accolades.
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind
OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!
You can already very easily get the maps of enemies needed by repeatedly using oroborous. With that in existence, I again so no need for the devs to make it easier to farm when they haven't put a lock down on the farming they don't like.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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You can already very easily get the maps of enemies needed by repeatedly using oroborous. With that in existence, I again so no need for the devs to make it easier to farm when they haven't put a lock down on the farming they don't like.
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the devs must love farming then, as someone stated a few posts up --- no xp gain = uber farming.
Political correctness is a stench in the nose of God. Yes, your God(s) also.
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If they don't spawn in "normal" Heroes CoT content (in the case of Coldblooded), why do you think they will spawn in MA Story Arcs designed by a Hero?
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Why wouldn't they? Flag them as being Villain-enabled spawns, allowing for the potential for them to be there.
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Apparently, the Devs had some reason for making this a hard Badge for a Hero to get.
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It's not a "hard" badge to get. It is an otherwise, simply unobtainable, badge to get outside of metagaming within a very specific time frame in order to obtain.
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It also means your argument is useless, since you couldn't get them to spawn even if you did get credit for killing them.
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And what about all the other badges that are one side or the other? I recall them saying that a Hero could make a mission with Legacy Chain or a Villain with Pumicites (for example). That the sides wouldn't be limited to the spawns on either side.
Could be wrong on that though. Memory is hazy.