Discussion: NCsoft NorCal Executives on IGN.com
By
Altoholic_Monkey,
Posted on: 2008-04-03 15:48 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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NC^2 has already stated that there is no second proccess and that all ads are controlled by them which means it comes from their servers. If any data is sent off to Double Fusion it'll be datamined from zone loads counting how many times adID X was requested. If you opt-out the client shouldn't be requesting the adIDs since it's not going to display them. What isn't likely to be gathered for data is if you actually see the ad on your screen, just that if you don't opt-out that you loaded a zone and which adIDs were requested at the time.
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No, here's where people assume they're saying one thing when they are saying something else. By "they" I mean the devs. They said they have control over what ads you will see; meaning if they don't want a WoW ad it ain't getting in. They have the right to refuse, and approve ads.
They did NOT say it's their servers. I listened to the interview with Positron and Brian Clayton, who is the NCsoft NorCal Studio Manager and Executive Producer. They said it's all client side and comes off Double Fusion's servers. Of course, Double Fusion can only send you ads that were approved by NCSoft, but the ads themselves aren't coming from NCSoft.
I Googled the Privacy Policy by Double Fusion and could only find something from 2006, but that policy said they can use cookies or beacons. That while some places considered your IP address to be "personal information" that by clicking the agree button you were in essence allowing them to collect your IP address therefore it's not considered private and I guess not protected by that law.
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These are not web-based images so there's no tracking cookies or web beacons.
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While I don't personally know how it works, as I said above thier PP said they can use them. However, they have to be using something in order to be able to tell if you're actually seeing the ad or not. Listen to that interview. The DJ asked if you had low game resolution because your machine can't handle it will the ads be blurry? The answer was yes. They asked if those ads would count toward being viewed. The answer was NO, and therefore wouldn't get any revenue for them.
How are they going to know if you've actually SEEN the ad if not through some means that many players might take issue with?
I guess this is a case of let the buyer beware. If it turns out to be more than you thought it's your (collective you & your) own fault.
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This interview is a must-read for anyone who still has doubts about the in-game advertising. I seriously doubt it'll sway the opinions of the Tin Foil Hat Club, but it'll hopefully ease some of the concerns that the sane, rational players might have.
I'm 5-starring this thread; I hope that I don't later regret that decision once more people read the interview (y'know, if they even bother before coming in here to run about, their arms flailing in the air).
Edit: First between two redname posts 
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You're entitled to your opinion on the matter, just as much as the dissenters. Don't be so quick to disparage others who's opinion differ from yours. Name-calling and insinuating ignorance of others completely invalidates any argument you're attempting to make.
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(qr)
The only question I have about in-game advertising is this: Is it going to the test server before it goes live? Give it a couple weeks in there, so we can see how much of an effect it has, and how it's going to be implemented. All these questions and concerns would be answered one way or the other, and if there were issues, such as spyware or pop-up ads resulting from normal gameplay, the problem would be much smaller than if it were simply thrown into the live environment and multiplied by a thousand.
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I don't see there being any chance of either spyware or pop-ups due to this. As they describe it, they'll just be replacing already in-game art for the billboards with new ad art.
ok here's a few things that i wanna see with this...
1. stay out-optable.
2. stay on the ad spots no loading crap or random pop ups etc.
3. Give players the option to submit ads for events, or item sells or sg's etc... essentialy game related stuff only, for a small fee that lets the ad circulate on some of the billboards and such for a few days. And rotate the players who's ads are up so as to not give one sg a player ad monopoly. So u can have ur real life related ads (energy drinks etc) and player game related ads. This would perhaps encourage people to switch to ads on so they dont miss out on great events or sg's or sales etc in game!
4. Allow players who opt in to get small almost unnoticable amounts of prestige for their sg or perhaps a costume piece if they have ads on for a certain amount of time. But not enough to give them any sort of advantage so players do not feal forced to opt in.
those are just suggestions and my hopes... so please no stoning of me as my mind runs wild when i am tired... i hope both the devs and player community consider/debate/discuss this...
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How are they going to know if you've actually SEEN the ad if not through some means that many players might take issue with?
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Well, gosh, I guess they'll just have to implement something totally rational, like a clientside/serverside link checking the Opt-In/Opt-Out flag for players.
DOOM is unnecessary - more money and an emphasis on players yea or naying is good, as long as it remains unobtrusive. I for one am now expecting more, better-quality content, and so far I've never questioned a decision by the NC^2 dev team.
Except Psi Manipulation, but that just looks -scary-, PVP or PVE. But that's neither here nor there.
More money, more devs, more content, more players, more money. I'll opt-in, thank you for giving me the op-tion (haha), and please keep this mentality of player choice going.
"Some people wrestle with their inner demons. I stabbed mine in the back of the head. He was a bleeder." - Black Mage
"We've trained you better than for you to use excuses like 'I didn't have control over what I was doing!'" - Major Tasker, Longbow
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Never heard of tracking cookies, or spyware? Where have you been?
They'll get players to turn on ads by indirectly laying on the guilt. Few to no viewers of ads, you know - those that opt out, mean less or no revenue from advertisers. Read the press releases, listen to the radio interview. They don't make money from it if you don't see it. End of story.
I have never seen players asking for in game ads. Quite the opposite. It may have been "brought up" but in the context of, "I hope you don't put in game ads in." I've never seen one interview or press release where players were informed that NCSoft was being hounded by companies like this.
Jeez, you don't get it, do you? The buck stops with NCSoft. Not Cryptic, not the new dev team. Maybe Jack fought them on this, ever think of that? Now that it's NCSoft's baby, they can do whatever they want. And I'm sure they will in the end.
And my point about them -possibly- doubling the players base was WHY DID THEY NOT TRY TO DO THAT BEFORE? Why is it taking in game ads to make them want to get more players? That's because more players = primo extra good money. Not only with the subscription fees, but with the possible ad money. But when players kept saying they needed boxes on store shelves, needed new blood, they did nothing? That's messed up.
It is NOT a source of revenue if players don't view it. They will be counting heads. I'm sure that info will get sent right to Double Fusion because they aren't going to take NCSoft's word for it.
The ads will be all client side, served by Double Fusion's servers. You won't even necessarily see the same ads, and an ad you saw before entering a mission can be different when you exit the mission. Posi said they use your IP address so they don't give you European ads if you live in America...but I thought we had separate servers? I'm thinking they'll stream you ads for your exact location, which is no better, imo, than web sites that track me and stream in ads "just for me."
Educate yourselves, people.
edited because I forgot something
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Geez, NancY, conspiracy-theorize much?
And in another thread regarding one of the other I12 changes, didn't you declare that you are canceling your game subscription? Why do you care about this issue at all, it won't go in until after you've gone.
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NC^2 has already stated that there is no second proccess and that all ads are controlled by them which means it comes from their servers. If any data is sent off to Double Fusion it'll be datamined from zone loads counting how many times adID X was requested. If you opt-out the client shouldn't be requesting the adIDs since it's not going to display them. What isn't likely to be gathered for data is if you actually see the ad on your screen, just that if you don't opt-out that you loaded a zone and which adIDs were requested at the time.
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No, here's where people assume they're saying one thing when they are saying something else. By "they" I mean the devs. They said they have control over what ads you will see; meaning if they don't want a WoW ad it ain't getting in. They have the right to refuse, and approve ads.
They did NOT say it's their servers. I listened to the interview with Positron and Brian Clayton, who is the NCsoft NorCal Studio Manager and Executive Producer. They said it's all client side and comes off Double Fusion's servers. Of course, Double Fusion can only send you ads that were approved by NCSoft, but the ads themselves aren't coming from NCSoft.
I Googled the Privacy Policy by Double Fusion and could only find something from 2006, but that policy said they can use cookies or beacons. That while some places considered your IP address to be "personal information" that by clicking the agree button you were in essence allowing them to collect your IP address therefore it's not considered private and I guess not protected by that law.
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These are not web-based images so there's no tracking cookies or web beacons.
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While I don't personally know how it works, as I said above thier PP said they can use them. However, they have to be using something in order to be able to tell if you're actually seeing the ad or not. Listen to that interview. The DJ asked if you had low game resolution because your machine can't handle it will the ads be blurry? The answer was yes. They asked if those ads would count toward being viewed. The answer was NO, and therefore wouldn't get any revenue for them.
How are they going to know if you've actually SEEN the ad if not through some means that many players might take issue with?
I guess this is a case of let the buyer beware. If it turns out to be more than you thought it's your (collective you & your) own fault.
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Solution: Opt-out
Problem solved.
Relax, it's still a game.
This is part of what I've said in the past. First Kudo's to NCSoft for doing this, because this can generate allot of revenue for them by other companies wanting to advertise in an online enviroment. Then with some of that revenue generated NCSoft can turn around and market CoX on a national scale (we've all seen the WoW ads w/celeb endorsments on TV). This will also help pay a larger development staff and keep the expansion content free along with not raising monthly fees. So over all it's a win win situation for all parties and the fact that you can opt out of advertising is also a major plus for those who don't want it.
I'm with SkyeValentine on this one. The Doom and gloom fire and brimstone speculations are getting a bit irritating. What unnerves me the most is that it's coming from forumites that I would normally consider 'sensible.'
Why make gross assumptions on a campaign that hasn't even started yet? Call me a tragic optimist, but I do believe NCsoft has the consumers best interest in mind as well as their CO* franchise.
Let them implement the ads. Lets see consumer reactions concerning how NC decides to display these ads BEFORE we begin spouting accusations of greedy bottom liners.
I've said it before, I welcome the adds if the proceeds are truely going towards more content and larger staff.
However, if the ads begin to intrude on my game enjoyment, I'll quit. That simple. I'll Send a short and concise formal complaint to NCsoft, Cancel my billing, my account, and quit.
The sky isn't falling, the world won't come crashing down on my head. I may feel a tinge of disappointment but in the end, I'll find another game to enjoy. Couldn't be more simple than that.
Still doesn't address the concern I have.
You know, that if you put this little bit of code into the game, that it won't earmark it as Ad-Ware/Malware and make my (and various other players) antivirus/Anti-Adware-Anti malware programs go "NUH HUH this is bad juju! you no play now"
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Not only that, does the 'sky-is-falling' crowd really think NCNC will shoot itself in the foot? I imagine the company fully realizes that if they do this wrong (i.e. spyware, too invasive, etc.) that they'll lose a lot more than ad revenue. If they alienate the player-base, they'll lose a lot of subscription money on top of lost ad revenue.
I think they know this, so I don't fear them screwing this up too much.
Relax, people.
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I'm with SkyeValentine on this one. The Doom and gloom fire and brimstone speculations are getting a bit irritating. What unnerves me the most is that it's coming from forumites that I would normally consider 'sensible.'
Why make gross assumptions on a campaign that hasn't even started yet? Call me a tragic optimist, but I do believe NCsoft has the consumers best interest in mind as well as their CO* franchise.
Let them implement the ads. Lets see consumer reactions concerning how NC decides to display these ads BEFORE we begin spouting accusations of greedy bottom liners.
I've said it before, I welcome the adds if the proceeds are truely going towards more content and larger staff.
However, if the ads begin to intrude on my game enjoyment, I'll quit. That simple. I'll Send a short and concise formal complaint to NCsoft, Cancel my billing, my account, and quit.
The sky isn't falling, the world won't come crashing down on my head. I may feel a tinge of disappointment but in the end, I'll find another game to enjoy. Couldn't be more simple than that.
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unfortunately, I couldn't agree more. Fear mongering is free and rampant, about anything.
Is time for a post by LH, like he did about stopping the devs hate villians, not even in jest, to spread to other things, PVP, ads, etc?
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Not only that, does the 'sky-is-falling' crowd really think NCNC will shoot itself in the foot? I imagine the company fully realizes that if they do this wrong (i.e. spyware, too invasive, etc.) that they'll lose a lot more than ad revenue. If they alienate the player-base, they'll lose a lot of subscription money on top of lost ad revenue.
I think they know this, so I don't fear them screwing this up too much.
Relax, people.
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Sorry but I want a definite (hopefully some redname, either community rep or Dev) reassurance that this wont turn into Adware/Malware/Spyware thanks.
I read the technology page on Double Fusion's website: http://www.doublefusion.com/develope..._overview.html
Kinda makes me go 0_0 and really need more reassurance to how this technology is going to affect the rest of my system.
@MrsAlphaOne
Member of the [url="http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=171543&TabID=1451954"]RIMC[/url]
[url="http://www.freewebs.com/mrsalphaone"]DA![/url]
[color=red]Official Beer Wench of PWNZ[/color] Arc 452196 When Madness Reigns over Reason. Play it and PM me your constructive criticism on what I can tweak before Oct 20th. <3 U all
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Still doesn't address the concern I have.
You know, that if you put this little bit of code into the game, that it won't earmark it as Ad-Ware/Malware and make my (and various other players) antivirus/Anti-Adware-Anti malware programs go "NUH HUH this is bad juju! you no play now"
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It was stated in the article that the advertsiements would be static. The current billboards don't effect your spybots or antivirus programs therefore these ads won't. I doubt they would lie to us on this point.
I would like however to be reassured that my account as well as personal information will be secure and not offered to third party advertising constituents. And that my mailbox in game and outside of game will not be flooded with unwanted ads.
I think these are fair and relevent concerns.
P.S. I would also like to be reassured that we are getting VEATs in the near future. Maybe with an updated news article on what we are getting for VEATs? :P
LH, where's the Beef?!
Here is a concern. Let's take Grandville for example. It is already over "laggy" on just about any graphics setting. That is of course considering that your system is not uber. How will these ads affect the already present lag issues we see so much of redside? Opt-out is a great way for people who don't want to see the ads, to not see them. If it makes more money to go towards more issues and content in a quicker manner then by all means, do it. I'm just hoping that it doesn't cause more lag redside then we already have.
Rather wish there was a definitive answer re: the interactivity of the ads...I'm cool with them being on billboards, our nonexistent buses, whatever, but I'd rather not click on something accidentally and be brought to a web page, be it Coke or Lexus or *shudder* Viagra. Keeping them in-game, all right, forcibly drawing me OUT of the game I think would be the ultimate in immersion-breaking. I'd personally rather not have them be audio/video ads, too...static pictures or even animations, no problem, but standing in Wentworth's and hearing looped advertisements would get on my nerves I fear.
Has any mention of what type(s) of adverts DoubleFusion (or whoever it was) would be shilling been made? As in, what kind of products? I'll confess I've never heard of 'em and wouldn't know the first thing about tracking down their usual clients...I'm curious whether we'd be dealing with Coke and Pepsi or RC Cola and Shwepps or something. Recognizable brands or no-names, and what would be the prevailing products--if we're gonna do this I'd at least prefer a variety, not endless Geico ads.
OK, you've answered all of my questions. I'm satisfied that NCNC is trying to do the right thing here. I only have one concern left, and that's this: I don't think you know what you're going into.
You see, when Ms. magazine started taking advertising, they made the same deals with their advertisers that you're making, and for roughly the same reason. They knew that if they became just like the "seven sisters," the generic womens' magazines like Glamour and Cosmopolitan, that it would cost them more in subscribers (and just as importantly to them, impact) than it earned them in revenues. So they made a firm commitment not to compromise on what ads they would and wouldn't show, and that under no circumstances would they let advertisers dictate editorial.
It failed. Hideously. And when they shut down the magazine, and relaunched it as subscriber-funded only, editor Gloria Steinem wrote a very, very important essay on why it failed, and how it failed. I found a copy on the web: Gloria Steinem, "Sex, Lies and Advertising," New Ms., July 1990. And I would feel a lot more confident that you're not going to repeat Ms.'s mistakes if all of you who will have decision-making responsibilities with regard to the advertising program read it.
<QR> I just have to say: Go Devs, go NCNC. I'm opting in (been interested in an idea like thsi for awhile! Glad to see the ball's finally rolling with a company that fits player choice requirements!). I hope that this helps.
My only worry about this is that later down the line, if only a small minority of players opt out, then someone will reason that it might be okay to make the Ads mandatory - trading off the revenue from say 1,000 customers for the higher revenue from guaranteed advertising.
I don't think NCNC is that mercenary, but the Ad company might point something like this out to them.
As it stands, not bothered by it at all. I plan to opt out though, cos I really like the current billboards espceially if the adverts will cover up Arachnos recruiting posters or the Crey billboards.
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Never heard of tracking cookies, or spyware? Where have you been?
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They have already stated that they will not have any of that. Reading comprehension is your friend.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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Rather wish there was a definitive answer re: the interactivity of the ads...
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They have answered this, I forget if it was a redname post or the interview but anyway ... The ads will not be interactive. Ie you can't click through etc. They are just billboards.
The ad company Double Fusion will have no clue if you saw there ad or not. All they will ever get is a count that last night 400,000 people logged in and 150,000 of them had ads turned off. Thats all the reporting info that will go back to them.
The software people are reading about on Double Fusion's website is something that they offer to companies as a turn key soluton to putting ads in. The company doesn't have to use their solution and in this case NCNC is using their own system for providing and displaying the ads. They are not using Double Fusions system.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
The company portfolio seems a bit....lacking. It also has very few multi-player games and no MMO's.
As I said before, my only concern is the technical aspect of it. From there portfolio, what would be the best comparison to how they will work in CoH/CoV?
so at first i was gonna dump this game, but rational thinking soon took over and i realized that seeing an ad on an in game billboard still wont sway my thoughts on that product eitherway (if i even stop to read whats on the billboard), so huzza get the $$ and implement new issues faster 
NancY, have you PMed Lighthouse with a comprehensive list of your concerns? I'm sure he'd be only too glad to dialogue with you on this.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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(qr)
The only question I have about in-game advertising is this: Is it going to the test server before it goes live? Give it a couple weeks in there, so we can see how much of an effect it has, and how it's going to be implemented. All these questions and concerns would be answered one way or the other, and if there were issues, such as spyware or pop-up ads resulting from normal gameplay, the problem would be much smaller than if it were simply thrown into the live environment and multiplied by a thousand.
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Optional In-Game Advertising will be on the Training Room for testing before it is implemented on the Live Servers. However, we first have the closed and open beta of Issue 12 to work through. Optional In-Game Advertisement will follow after the release of Issue 12.
Lighthouse
Community Relations Manager
If you have a specific in game, account, tech or billing problem please contact our Customer Support team via The Knowledge Base "Ask A Question" page.