Discussion: NCsoft NorCal Executives on IGN.com
By
Altoholic_Monkey,
Posted on: 2008-04-03 15:48 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
How is Double Fusion going to track player exposure to their ads? I assume the player character needs to be at least within rendering distance of the bill board. Will it take into account what direction the player character is facing? Will it register the exposure instance and/or the length of exposure? I've played the "paid to surf" game a bit (was late getting in on the big hand outs, though) and am willing to park my character facing a bill board (if one happens to be near) while I take my bio breaks.
Frankly, if the art for the ads were done to fit and blend into the theme of the game, I wouldn't mind them around. I'd just prefer that they not be made to really stick out like, for example, being extra bright.
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One thing I'm wondering is how will they know if I view or don't view an ad?
In any case... I'm all for it. As long as it's tasteful and appropriate, not in your face, and not sprouting up all over, just like it seems to be presented in the pictures (billboards only, looks like) I am fine with it.
Heck, to a certain extent, this *increases* the game's realism... because it's real advertising in our fair city (unfair islands? 
) I am one who will be more than happy to keep them around as more $ means more content. Yayness. I would also ask that the occasional 'play' ad NOT be taken down/changed... keep a few in there for posterity's sake, yeah?
Rotating after a zone or perhaps overnight might be a fun way make them kinda fun to look for as well.
However, if it comes down to an ad during loading/zoning, or new billboards pop up at weird locations, or worse, in mission... Unless the mission map is appropriate, of course (outdoor map, for example) or anything untowards of the sort... you can just forget even thinkin' about that right now, thanks, they'll be off.
I hope everyone will give them a chance before you turn them off out of spite or something right off. I think that long term this could be a good thing, overall.
/oh, ok, so I'm naive and starry eyed... so sue me.
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I would like Coca-cola bill board.
I would settle for Pesi one.
This would add to realism.
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willing to park my character facing a bill board (if one happens to be near) while I take my bio breaks.
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I hadn't thought of it until you posted, but I'd be willing to do the same. It could be problematic on my corruptor sdrawkcaB though, as I've reverse mapped all his movement keys and swing the camera 180 degrees every time I zone. If it just tracks facing, it may not register an ad view when I'm actually viewing it, or it may track me viewing ad P when I'm actually viewing ad Q across the street. I realize that sdrawkcaB is not the usual sort of character though. Statistical anomalies FTW!
A greater concern is the low-end user. For about two years I played CoH on an ancient machine with unsupported video capabilities. Getting to minimum specs would have been a significant upgrade. Many of the in game billboards were frankly illegible. I could tell that there was a billboard, but I couldn't tell you what it said. Would the new adds force a higher minimum graphics setting, or would they even be able to tell if it was readable? Again, I don't see this being a statistically significant portion of the population, and it doesn't apply to me anymore. Just curious.
O.O Did any of you read that? How could you have and not question some things?
Such as:
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We're working with Double Fusion and providing them data on what our customers are interested in.
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Are they going to poll you, or spy on you? How are they going to know what you're interested in?
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IGN: What percentage of players have to opt in for this to be a profitable deal for you guys?
It comes down to how many people are seeing the ads. If the placements we currently have in the game are well placed, even a small percentage can do a lot for the development team.
The thing about opt-in and opt-out is that if we've done something that's not working for the customer and people are opting out, we can take that feedback and see what we can do to make the ads work for our community. If players opt out and decide they don't want to participate at this level, we're going to work as hard as we can to make it something that does work for them.
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If enough people don't opt-in it won't be profitable for them. No profits means no extra money for extra game development. They are going to do everything they can to get people to see, or want to see those ads.
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We've been thinking about advertising for a very long time. Ever since we launched City of Heroes, the press has asked us why we aren't using real ads, and the community has asked us why we aren't using real ads.
City of Heroes has been courted for a very long time by a number of advertisers and we're excited to find the right partnership with Double Fusion.
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They had always planned this, they tested the reaction when they mentioned it the first time. I think most people weren't for it back then. But tell me....WHAT players have been asking for this? WHAT press has been asking them why they don't have it? How come WE never saw these questions in all the press releases, interviews, and forum threads? Because it's bull?
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IGN: Is there any chance for interactivity with these ads? Are they tracked relative to specific players?
Brian Clayton: Initially, we're working with the current fictitious billboard which are static placements. We're certainly going to look at how this is received by customers and where the advertising climate is going. Right now, there's a great business in place for static ads and so we're going to start with that. We're definitely keeping opportunities open but that's all based on reception by the players and what that's going to allow us to do from a development perspective to grow the brand.
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Question avoided. More hinted at. Read this again without thinking about how much it's not costing you.
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The CPM amount that advertisers are willing to pay is still hopping around a little bit so that makes it difficult to accurately predict what percentage of our users need to be opted-in order for this to be worth it.
Obviously you have the size of our game community itself. If we double our game community and 50% are opted in, those are the same amount of eyeballs if 100% of our current community is opted in.
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So they don't know how much money, if any, this will make. It depends on how many people view the ads. 95% of the players opting out is NOT going to make extra revenue to better the game. It's all RP spin. And what, they're suddenly looking at doubling the player base so that if half the players (the amount they now have) look at the ads it's a success? Why did they not try to double the player base before ads? HOW are they planning to double the player base? I don't know why players are not questioning this.
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IGN: No one's really made this work.
Brian Clayton: I don't know that anybody has done this right but there's probably not a better MMO out there for in-game advertising because of the genre and setting. If there was ever a natural fit for in-game advertising in the MMO space, it's definitely City of Heroes. I know the advertisers think so too because they've been knocking on our doors since before we shipped.
Ross Borden: We're going to give it a try.
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Wow, just wow. They really care about the player.
I guess fantasy and high fantasy have something going for them. There's no "realistic" way to incorporate ads into those games. Thank God.
Hey, i have a question. I don't think it's been answered yet, or even asked. If so, forgive me.
But i'm wondering. Exactly how will NCNC get paid through this whole thing? Will advertisers give a flat fee for X amount of days on X number of billboards, or will they pay akin to how internet adtertising works with "hits" and things.
Because i want NCNC to get more money and keep improving the game *Crosses fingers if they get enough money, things like power customization might happen* And if the ad companies are just paying a flat fee, I'll likely turn off the advertising. However, if it's done on an amount like "X% of players see our advertising. You receive Y amount of money" I'd think long and hard about turning it off.
Course, i think the best answer is to make more costume packs! I wanna buy some more dang it! *Crosses fingers for Kimonos and the such*
Anyway. Back to lurking.
THe 'starting' comment keeps getting taken out of context. They're talking about the fact that they are starting with static images on billboards (what they have now). If things go well I suspect they will look into adding animated billboards but likely those will be less common and come only as part of patches since they'd be larger files so would be a noticable performance hit if downloaded during zone loads.
They could also put ads in other locations: some NPC models might get logo emblazoned clothing rather than the dull and mon-colored stuff they have now. NPC chatter might mention product names in a random manner like it mentions player achievements currently. Mission maps may get new objects that are actual products, whether a vending machine selling Pepsi, a Dell laptop (like Tabula Rasa has everywhere), or a Xerox label on the existing copiers in the offices. Obviously some of those will require adjusting and possibly special pricing models for the advetisers.
They also aren't going to shoot themselves in the foot by saying "We will only EVER do this" when dealing with the press. They know if they say that and something changes (especially if things go well and they try to expand the ads in some way like I mentioned above) they'll get flamed quite heavily for it.
Unless CoX becomes free to play we'll never see a 'pay to opt out', reduced fees for opting-in, or ads during load screens. ALso by making sure the company they works with supports the opt out option (something most ad agencies wouldn't do as they mention) and that the arrangement (as in legal contract) says they keep creative control and approval for the ads they won't need to cave to advertiser pressure to change things in the game.
If the advetisers are smart we won't just get generic ads that you'd see in magaizines and movies, we'll get ads that are customized for the game world. Ads could and should mention signature characters, groups, and zones. I'd love to see a 'Hanes for Heroes' spandex ad saying that its only available at Icon, for example. Energy drinks would be easily marketed to superheroes. As for redside many things would still apply for marketing though wiht a Recluse slant, plus there are lots of ordinary citizens there as well not just heroes and villains (espcecially when you get out of the slums of Mercy and Grandville).
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How is Double Fusion going to track player exposure to their ads? I assume the player character needs to be at least within rendering distance of the bill board. Will it take into account what direction the player character is facing? Will it register the exposure instance and/or the length of exposure? I've played the "paid to surf" game a bit (was late getting in on the big hand outs, though) and am willing to park my character facing a bill board (if one happens to be near) while I take my bio breaks.
Frankly, if the art for the ads were done to fit and blend into the theme of the game, I wouldn't mind them around. I'd just prefer that they not be made to really stick out like, for example, being extra bright.
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Been answered by someone around here.
Double Fusion isn't going to be able to track player exposure to their ads. All they will have is the raw number of players with Ads turned on versus number of players with ads turned off. They will not have any idea how many people actually saw an ad.
From what I can tell when the zone is loaded and the billboard created it will pull the skin for the billboard from an ad directory instead of the in game art pack. If you have ads turned off then you will see the in game art pack. Further it appears that it will probably update when the launcher is running. So if before 7:00 PM a billboard was for Coca-Cola and after 7:00 PM it switched to 7up all those who logged in before 7:00 PM would see the coke ads and all those who logged in after 7:00 PM would be seeing 7up ads.
There is no interactive feedback to the ad company or the advertiser. Essentially all NCSoft is selling is billboard space in game not a banner ad spot.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
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O.O Did any of you read that? How could you have and not question some things?
Such as:
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We're working with Double Fusion and providing them data on what our customers are interested in.
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/severtoungeincheek
Are they going to poll you, or spy on you? How are they going to know what you're interested in?
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They will spy on you. Day and night. They will add spyware to your browser and watch you with your own USB camera. And Also bug your phones and install a nanny cam in your house.
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I guess fantasy and high fantasy have something going for them. There's no "realistic" way to incorporate ads into those games. Thank God.
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Yeah, I'm going to be moving to Dungeon Runner.
Oh wait... 
Now, I have read the article, and understand the logistics behind it all. It's not a bad idea to generate revenue, especially if they go after advertisers they know the audience will pay attention to. This opens up advertising opportunities for console video games, comics, movies, etc. targeted at the audience that plays CoH.
My main concern is I dropped an MMO that tried this horribly wrong, Dungeon Runners. Granted, I didn't want to pay the extra $5 a month to not see them, but if you even clicked on the screen while the ad was there you went directly to an offsite. I can't tell you quickly I dropped Dungeon Runners (even though it is free) because my computer got infested with spyware from some of those invasive sites. I'm all for ingame advertising, but please do NOT follow that model.
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Now, I have read the article, and understand the logistics behind it all. It's not a bad idea to generate revenue, especially if they go after advertisers they know the audience will pay attention to. This opens up advertising opportunities for console video games, comics, movies, etc. targeted at the audience that plays CoH.
My main concern is I dropped an MMO that tried this horribly wrong, Dungeon Runners. Granted, I didn't want to pay the extra $5 a month to not see them, but if you even clicked on the screen while the ad was there you went directly to an offsite. I can't tell you quickly I dropped Dungeon Runners (even though it is free) because my computer got infested with spyware from some of those invasive sites. I'm all for ingame advertising, but please do NOT follow that model.
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They've made it very clear that they won't 
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Repurposed
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Some of us have a healthy skepticism about ads and the over-commercialization of everyday life. I place a high value on access to my mind and those of my family members. With ever encroaching advertisements there are few places where people can be free of being marketed to. For me, CoH is one of those places. I play to get away from real life.
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No, don't you get it? We opt-outers are "whiners" and are "mentally ill" and wear "tinfoil hats".
Aren't we?
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No, don't you get it? We opt-outers are "whiners" and are "mentally ill" and wear "tinfoil hats".
Aren't we?
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Err no. Opting out fine. No body has a problem with you opting out. Frankly we could care less if you opt out. But we do care about your running in circles screaming the sky is falling over this.
Note: You and your are generic in the above comment.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
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The only question I have about in-game advertising is this: Is it going to the test server before it goes live? Give it a couple weeks in there, so we can see how much of an effect it has, and how it's going to be implemented. All these questions and concerns would be answered one way or the other, and if there were issues, such as spyware or pop-up ads resulting from normal gameplay, the problem would be much smaller than if it were simply thrown into the live environment and multiplied by a thousand.
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Are they going to poll you, or spy on you? How are they going to know what you're interested in?
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A fair question I guess. A poll asking what types of advertising people would be most interested in (ie Movies, Games, Drinks, etc) would not be unheard of. As for the spying comment I'm going to assume you're being facetious because it's such a ridiculous idea.
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If enough people don't opt-in it won't be profitable for them. No profits means no extra money for extra game development. They are going to do everything they can to get people to see, or want to see those ads.
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Of course they will. What would expect them to *not* want people to see the ads? Don't be silly. They want as many people as possible to be comfortable with viewing these ads. If they make them overly intrusive or start forcing them down people's throats then they're going to lose subscriptions which will cost them more money then the advertising would generate. So there's really no danger of that happening. .
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They had always planned this, they tested the reaction when they mentioned it the first time. I think most people weren't for it back then. But tell me....WHAT players have been asking for this? WHAT press has been asking them why they don't have it? How come WE never saw these questions in all the press releases, interviews, and forum threads? Because it's bull?
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Where have you been? It's been brought up on these boards many times by players since CoH was first launched.
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So they don't know how much money, if any, this will make. It depends on how many people view the ads. 95% of the players opting out is NOT going to make extra revenue to better the game. It's all RP spin. And what, they're suddenly looking at doubling the player base so that if half the players (the amount they now have) look at the ads it's a success? Why did they not try to double the player base before ads? HOW are they planning to double the player base? I don't know why players are not questioning this.
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Because there's nothing to question. In case you haven't noticed they've been really investing back into the game since the big purchase. They didn't do all this stuff before that because a different group was running the show. They're starting to hire more people to increase the size of their staff, they're seriously trying to grow the playerbase for this game again.
I honestly can't believe you're crying doom over the fact that he said they're trying to increase the size of their playerbase. It's mind-boggling.
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I guess fantasy and high fantasy have something going for them. There's no "realistic" way to incorporate ads into those games. Thank God.
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Yes limiting access to an additional source of revenue, one that players can freely ignore if they want, is such a huge plus. 
The only ads in the beta will be player made, (and maybe NCNC ads - not sure on that) They said as much in that radio interview. They have no advertisers at the moment, but to test it they'll put up player made art.
That art won't be live though, by the time it goes live they should have advertisers and a small percentage will be fan stuff.
They also said the only games they'd advertise are NCSoft's. So expect to see those.
Never heard of tracking cookies, or spyware? Where have you been?
They'll get players to turn on ads by indirectly laying on the guilt. Few to no viewers of ads, you know - those that opt out, mean less or no revenue from advertisers. Read the press releases, listen to the radio interview. They don't make money from it if you don't see it. End of story.
I have never seen players asking for in game ads. Quite the opposite. It may have been "brought up" but in the context of, "I hope you don't put in game ads in." I've never seen one interview or press release where players were informed that NCSoft was being hounded by companies like this.
Jeez, you don't get it, do you? The buck stops with NCSoft. Not Cryptic, not the new dev team. Maybe Jack fought them on this, ever think of that? Now that it's NCSoft's baby, they can do whatever they want. And I'm sure they will in the end.
And my point about them -possibly- doubling the players base was WHY DID THEY NOT TRY TO DO THAT BEFORE? Why is it taking in game ads to make them want to get more players? That's because more players = primo extra good money. Not only with the subscription fees, but with the possible ad money. But when players kept saying they needed boxes on store shelves, needed new blood, they did nothing? That's messed up.
It is NOT a source of revenue if players don't view it. They will be counting heads. I'm sure that info will get sent right to Double Fusion because they aren't going to take NCSoft's word for it.
The ads will be all client side, served by Double Fusion's servers. You won't even necessarily see the same ads, and an ad you saw before entering a mission can be different when you exit the mission. Posi said they use your IP address so they don't give you European ads if you live in America...but I thought we had separate servers? I'm thinking they'll stream you ads for your exact location, which is no better, imo, than web sites that track me and stream in ads "just for me."
Educate yourselves, people.
edited because I forgot something
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O.O Did any of you read that? How could you have and not question some things?
Such as:
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We're working with Double Fusion and providing them data on what our customers are interested in.
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/severtoungeincheek
Are they going to poll you, or spy on you? How are they going to know what you're interested in?
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They will spy on you. Day and night. They will add spyware to your browser and watch you with your own USB camera. And Also bug your phones and install a nanny cam in your house.
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I guess fantasy and high fantasy have something going for them. There's no "realistic" way to incorporate ads into those games. Thank God.
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Yeah, I'm going to be moving to Dungeon Runner.
Oh wait...
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Into. Like this game. WoW isn't going to put in billboards. Dungeon Runners has, or will have, ads around the screen. Like web banners. And splash screen ads. Free to play crap with ads is not an MMORPG. But I'm sure you'll see that advertised in CoX.
And I don't have a camera, USB or otherwise.
The only thing I don't like about this is this is just the first (or next) step to constant in game adverts.
Imagine a game in a city setting like this released say... 10 years from now. There are going to be billboard ads ALL over the friggin place. Adds on buses, cabs, billboards, posters plastered all over, giant TV screens airing the latest Geico commecial, etc. all in game. When you use that "Rest" power it's going to go to a 15 second commercial break while you heal. Well... maybe not that bad, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's something we can expect to see in the future.
This is just setting a precedent. The sad thing... it was inevitable. Funcom started the precedent with Anarchy Online when they did the same thing for paying accounts (allowing paying customers to opt-out), and forcing in game adds on free accounts to pay for them. This is just taking it to the next step with an outside company controlling the adds instead of the game designer running a script that rotates ads from time to time.
Now I won't say this is a bad idea, because frankly it's not. It's just "keeping with the times". Make your money where you can. But we all don't have to like every good idea that comes along...
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Never heard of tracking cookies, or spyware? Where have you been?
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Yes that would be a great way to get more people into the game. Let's put spyware on people's computers. I'm sure no one would notice and if they did no one would complain about it. It's not like it would tarnish the reputation of the entire company or cause a mass exodus of customers or anything. Just think about what you're saying for a second.
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They'll get players to turn on ads by indirectly laying on the guilt. Few to no viewers of ads, you know - those that opt out, mean less or no revenue from advertisers. Read the press releases, listen to the radio interview. They don't make money from it if you don't see it. End of story.
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So what now you're afraid of them guilting you into turning the ads back on? The fact that they want people to see them is a positive incentive to make them as unobtrusive as possible.
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I have never seen players asking for in game ads. Quite the opposite. It may have been "brought up" but in the context of, "I hope you don't put in game ads in."
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Then I don't know what to tell you except that you're wrong. I've seen more than one thread on these boards over the years suggesting that they put ads in the game to create additional revenue streams. From what I recall most people thought it was a fine idea.
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I've never seen one interview or press release where players were informed that NCSoft was being hounded by companies like this.
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Neither have I. Then again I wouldn't expect them to. Why would they issue a press release about something like that?
There have been requests for something like this, and it ranged from having the billboards change out every so often to having real ads. I think they might have had a better reaction if they'd been able to put the ads there right from the start since then they wouldn't have to deal with teh bad blood about in-game advertising caused by such mess ups as Anarchy Online and Dungeon Runners. DR was originally just going to have an ad for non-paying customers during hte load screens, then it got out of hand and was poorly monitored and implemented.
NC^2 seems to have planned things out much better. It sounds like they've been working on this for some time, and possibly even as far back as I1. The fact that they emphasize the problems they had finding an ad agency that would work with them to allow them control over the content and making it an opt-out option for the players shows they don't want to shove advertising down our throats. Other than the bad spin that H:L got because of its association with EA, it handled the in-game ads fairly well. They weren't obtrusive, they weren't on load screens, they fit the game theme, and there was no spyware installed. From my research there wasn't any in Battlefield 2142 either, what there was was in-game viewing data that got sent back to the company that did BF and H:L's ads for EA that was used to determine billing to the companies that had ads and to determine which ads were getting the most views. Since this was a seperate connection (and in BF's apparently a seperate proccess as well) it got flagged and seen as suspicious by users as being spyware.
NC^2 has already stated that there is no second proccess and that all ads are controlled by them which means it comes from their servers. If any data is sent off to Double Fusion it'll be datamined from zone loads counting how many times adID X was requested. If you opt-out the client shouldn't be requesting the adIDs since it's not going to display them. What isn't likely to be gathered for data is if you actually see the ad on your screen, just that if you don't opt-out that you loaded a zone and which adIDs were requested at the time.
These are not web-based images so there's no tracking cookies or web beacons. The ads will not be interactive so there's no 'click throughs' like Dungeon Runners. Ad space pricing model will be much more like it would be on a raido station: the advetiser pays for ad space with the assumption there will be viewers, and the datamining done will be to give feedback to NC^2 and Double Fusion about where and when peak ad locations are and how to price for those spaces/times. They could also treat it like a newspaper classified ad where you pay for space used with pricing based around ciruclation. In the case of CoX that would mean how frequently their ad gets cycled into the zones (If they do it right there wouldn't be more than one copy of the ad per zone so you can mix the old ads, other content, and company ads in one zone) with the 'circulation' being number of active accounts that haven't opted out. Just because this game is on the internet doesn't mean the ads are going to be handled like ad banners on web sites.
Sure, the current in-game ads are nice, maybe even sometimes humorous. But if it generates revenue for the game by replacing them with real advertisements, then who are we to denounce the idea?
So long as they unobtrusively stay on the billboards and buildings throughout the game, and don't start popping up at random, I have no quarrel with them.
As long as it STAYS out-outtable I'm ok with it... Though I think it would be really cool if they made 3 levels.
Level 1: Totally opted out. Keep your default ads.
Level 2: Player created ads ONLY. No real ads
Level 3: Real ads
EDIT: Ok, I've pretty much listened to all of the Cape Radio podcast (f you've not heard it, go to www.thecaperadio.com and download it, it's on their main page) and now I can say I'll definitely give it a try.
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The bottom line is if they opt out that's better for players and advertisers.
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I think there's a "not" missing in the sentence... either that or I'm really lost on what is good for advertisers...
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Yeah, there are a couple of typo's were still trying to get IGN to clear up, unfortunately
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The ability to opt out IS better for both player and advertiser. The benefit to player is rather obvious: they don't see what they don't want to see.
But advertisers have also discovered that it is to their benefit not to advertise to potential consumers in a way that may create bad will. That is why the advertising community created the Direct Marketing Association program to opt out of getting junk mail and why they either endorsed or at least did not oppose "do not call lists" legislation for telemarketers.
They came to the conclusion that they were wasting time and goodwill trying to push goods and services to folks that would never buy over the phone or in response to direct mail.
The ability to opt out follows these commercial precedents.
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