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Back to thematics Empathy isnt really a villainous trait. From a fiction standpoint, it wasnt our first choice to port over and the reason corruptors didnt receive it in the first place as part of the release of City of Villains. If we were to add an Empathy Like set, it would need to be all new and not a port of it, to make it fit into the Villainous theme. As such, that fell out of the scope of Issue 12s powerset proliferation and is why it wasnt included.
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Whatever "thematic" reasons they come up with to justify their decisions is pure bullcrap as it just doesnt wash. I mentioned earlier that the heroic standpoint from my recollection is for good to triumph over evil against all the odds, not for good to be in the dominant position and for villains to have to do all the work. This is a fundamentally flawed standpoint from my point of view.
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I'm not pointing at the person's response in particular, it just happened to be the latest of a slew of similar quotes. What I'm gonna say applies equally.
Do you people even bother to read? Or do you stop after the first sentence in a blind fit of rage and instantly hit reply? The bolded part of Doc Brainstorm's comment is the only reason there's no Emp set being ported to villains at this time. Does it say they'll never do it? Does it say anything about any other sets? Does it say that a healing set doesn't belong in villains? What they did say, is that the Empathy set, the way it is now, isn't going to redside without some major tweaking, depending on who gets it.
Power proliferation is going away from "themed powers." There will be some form of every set (excluding MM's primaries) crossing over to the other side eventually. What comes down the pipe next, however, will look more like the original set's cousin, rather than its twin. They're related, but they have their unique traits, too. It's time to divorce yourselves from seeing Empathy as it is in any villain AT, because it's just not gonna happen.
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Pointing at my comment or not did you actually bother to read and understand what I wrote? I dont seem to be mentioning empathy at all.
I was making the point that the historic standpoint of heroes is to fight the good fight against all the odds because it is right, because no one else can, not smack people down because you are more powerful, thats pretty much fascism. I dont recall many superman or batman comic where after the story unfolded they just flew in punched them once and went back to the cave/fortress for tea, its pretty much always against all the odds. The roles are distinctly reversed, heroes have a silver platter while the villains have to work their socks off. Perhaps I am missing something but I dont see that specific point being made that often in this thread.
They should port empathy as consumption and theme it around consuming other people's pain for one's gain.
add buffs to the caster as they go, as an apology for having us deal with powerboosted fort every other day in freedom RV :-P
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I have to weigh in here on this point. I totally agree with Ice that red side needs a dedicated dev to be their voice. While I think everyone should WAIT for I12 Beta before they begin their croakings of doom. I have TONS of friends who are telling me that if I12 goes through as it is scheduled now they will quit the game.
All of them are players of red side and they are sick and tired of being trodden over every issue with almost no substantial content or love given to their villains. This is NOT my personal opinion on the matter. I"m merely mirroring their discontent they have expressed to me.
NCsoft is infusing more cash and employees into CoX to breath life into the game and make it a serious force to rival the new MMO's coming out on the market. But I think they really need to get their butts in gear and give the players what they want like they did in I9-11. Because at this point a good portion of their playerbase has just about had it and are going to jump ship if something isn't done soon.
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So, when an Issue that contains something they've been wanting since CoV launched comes, they'll quit because they finally got what they wanted? That makes a lot of sense...especially when they haven't actually played anything yet.
If they leave, that's too bad for them. Less DOOOM-criers is good for the game. And maybe CoV players start getting more of their concerns listened to and addressed because the collective voice of the Villain has more common sense and less distracting voices.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
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I'm guessing the numbers behind the Psi/Mind powers will be tweaked downward to balance this set.
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Fixed that for you. 
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Please don't do this. Misquoting people even playfully requires people who are reading your post to click back to the original to find out what you changed, and it is often regarded as disrespectful. I moderate another forum and warn and have even kicked people for engaging in this internet meme. Please do not help popularize it.
OK, after giving blasters these two sets, I don't want to hear the devs use the word 'overpowered' ever again, because they simply do not understand what it means.
They are so horrified at the thought of porting em or ss over to scrappers because they would do really high single target dmg, but they don't have any problem giving blasters these two sets that will allow them to do insane dmg from the longest ranges in the game, much of it aoe, with insane amounts of control that is lightly resisted. They keep boosting range and contol and aoe, parts of the game that are already on the top, while doing nothing for melee or single target. It's really getting annoying.
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Empathy isnt a villainous trait, generally speaking. From a fiction standpoint, it will likely never be given to Villains as a set.
Back to thematics Empathy isnt really a villainous trait. From a fiction standpoint, it wasnt our first choice to port over and the reason corruptors didnt receive it in the first place as part of the release of City of Villains. If we were to add an Empathy Like set, it would need to be all new and not a port of it, to make it fit into the Villainous theme. As such, that fell out of the scope of Issue 12s powerset proliferation and is why it wasnt included.
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My dear Doctor:
If you ignore the word 'Empathy' and simply look at what the powerset does, there's nothing uniquely heroic about it. Most of the powers don't even tie in to the intended 'empathy' theme at all. Fortitude? Adrenalin Boost? Regeneration Aura? Recovery Aura? These are much more to do with bioenergetics than with Empathy.
The only power that actually reflects the powerset's supposed theme is Absorb Pain.
It seems to me that a purely mechanical issue is being determined by story concerns. Moreover, those story concerns seem to be based upon the title of the powerset (Empathy) rather than its actual theme and function (body boosting and restoration). So we're forced to ask if this is really such a big deal as it appears, especially since the Empathy title seems fairly arbitrary.
At least the Poison powerset involves the character spitting nasty stuff out. That's not very heroic, I grant you. Heroes may breathe fire, but spitting is a bit gross. But I don't believe there's one single animation in the Empathy set that isn't already found over in the Villain powersets.
The last time story concerns were allowed to dominate mechanical ones, we had the Patron Power Pools, and nobody needs me to recap the issues people had (and still have) with those.
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Agreeing with Lady Sadako here. Now You have Defenders and Controllers having Empathy. You've given the Thermal now and so that's three major sets of Healing-type buffs and you've given Villains one. Two Hero AT's can have Kinetics where Villains have one. ( No... I am not asking for MM's to get Kinetics. ) You've given Cold and Thermal Shields over to the Heroes with only Storm to make up for it.
Offensively you've treated the Villains just as well as the Heroes. Defensively, you haven't. Empathy, I imagine, was called Empathy for an Heroic-sounding effect on the players imaginations. You're reasoning of Thematics doesn't hold water when another title could be made to fit the bill for Villains from a great many ideal souces, such as Bioenergetics, as Lady S was pointing out. That's a neutral theme for Villains and Heroes both.
After reading about the plethora of things that are coming in I12, I don't want this particular thing to downshadow the marvelous extremes you guys seem to be going to. It's all appreciated and probably not expressed enough. It's just that on this little tidbit of what you've posted on I12, I disagree with you greatly and will continue to. Fun is one thing. Offensive and Defensive balance does have some importance to us. 
Best reguards,
-Sam
Okay, I'm calling it:
The Psi sets will suck for Blasters as much as they do for Defenders (at least in PvE), but since they'll be primaries to the Blasters, the Blasters won't be able to do anything else of any use, and they'll whine about it all the time. (Also: People taking /Mental will often take Drain Psyche and Build Up ONLY.)
Also:
I want to say "Fortunatas will be ten kinds of broken and PvP heroes will hate them worse than Stalkers," but frankly, my official prediction is still "lol CoV." That said, I do think that heroes got Mind/Psy redshirts because villains get Fortunatas.
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Reading some of the reply I had to stop because all I read were:
Whine whine whine WHINE whine whine.
Just wonder if you all are like this in the real world, if you are then explains why the planet is going down the toilet.
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oh I fully agree Jutey. This whole issue has been nothing but whining since it was announced...
VEATs? "It's not nictus! WTF! Why can't my heroes wear arachnos costumes!?!"
Powerset Proliferation? "omg psi blasters, omg cold defender, WTF elec stalkers!?! = devs hate villain side clearly"
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Villains have relationships too, and feel empathy, anger, and the like when one falls.
Not all villains are only looking out for themselves. The "theme" bit is a load of crap.
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A thousand times this. Can one not be empathetic to someone who is on the wrong side of the law? They just need to come out and say the real reason they won't give Emps to the Red side and stop feeding us this [censored].
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They have said that they will play around with the names and fx's of the powers and release it when they have time. They didnt have the budget to do it in I12.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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Sigh. This is just ridiculous, of course, the h to v balance wasn't even remotely addressed in the post. Villains are really screwed now.
Storm, and even Empathy for villains wouldn't save them for the disaster that is looming anyway. I'm trying to figure out what the point of playing any villain AT outside of a stalker is now in PvP.
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Now that I see the details of this Psi/Psi i now understand how they are going to bring balance to (the Force) PVP.
With this power set I see less villains being defeated in PVP. For the simple reason that who will be playing Villains after this is available. Ok maybe some die hard is playing VEATS or there are still stalkers out there but the numbers of unique victims will deminish.
So just like the Jedi being unable to see how balance would come to the force I think something similar will happen here.
Pinnacle
Arch light L50 INV/SS
Psiberia L50 Kin/Psi
Screaming Mentallica L50 Sonic/MM
Infinity
Arc Voltinator L50 SS/Elec
Mind Fire Kinesis L50 Fire/Kin
Flaming Screamer L50 Fire/Sonic
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I'm guessing the numbers behind the Psi/Mind powers will be tweaked downward to balance this set.
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Fixed that for you.
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So unless you are talking like less than defender level damage I just dont see how. Damage will suck so bad no one will want to play it anyways?
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Psychic Shockwave for Dominators is an AOE power which does damage as it if it a single target power. For Blasters, this will not be the case -- the AOE divisor will be in place. In other words, divide damage by 4.75.
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The Widow's Dark Hand - leader of Faux Pas
Champion Server
Tee Hee!
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I'm guessing the numbers behind the Psi/Mind powers will be tweaked downward to balance this set.
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Fixed that for you.
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So unless you are talking like less than defender level damage I just dont see how. Damage will suck so bad no one will want to play it anyways?
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Psychic Shockwave for Dominators is an AOE power which does damage as it if it a single target power. For Blasters, this will not be the case -- the AOE divisor will be in place. In other words, divide damage by 4.75.
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masterfully done castle (not being sarcastic, i swear). now, im curious, does this signal a nerf for psw in doms :-(
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that would be the *end* of /Psi Doms, at a stroke. It's on a par with removing Hide from all Stalker sets. 
The Widow's Dark Hand - leader of Faux Pas
Champion Server
Tee Hee!
I think they should stop giving us updates to new Issues before they even go on Open Beta.
There seem to be too many children on these boards that cannot wait until these things even enter beta testing to see how things work.
I'm sure that even if the VEATs are great there will be someone that complains, "ZOMG nao i haf 2 play a gimp vill to ply a VEAT?!?! teh devs hate vills!"
What some of you doomsayers are failing to note is that you are shooting the community in the foot with all of your nastiness. Do not be surprised if for Issue 13 we hear, "Due to the problems that we had with I12 and Powerset Proliferation, there will be no announcements concerning Issue 13 until it enters Open Beta."
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Actually Legion, there's at least two superheroes I can think of that had 'dark' powers. Cloak from Marvel had them, he's practically the posterchild for them. And there was a member of the Legion of Superheroes over in DC that had them (cant' remember her name though). Mind you, I'd still like to see Empathy brought over in some, but just sayin'.
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Her name was Shadow Lass (or Umbra, in later incarnations). Also, I would hardly classify Cloak as a hero, maybe as an anti-hero.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
English does not borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and rifles through their pockets for loose grammar.
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They way things are going, a Kinetics MM will be created. for Heroes.
Even if PSW did zero damage on a Blaster, the disorient alone (slotted with Stupefy KB too!) will make these new guys godly.
The Widow's Dark Hand - leader of Faux Pas
Champion Server
Tee Hee!
What is with the name "Subdual"?
Is it Subdue? Or a joke on Sub-duel but spelt wrong?
Is it two subdues? It sounds like "Subdue-Twice" at the moment...
The Widow's Dark Hand - leader of Faux Pas
Champion Server
Tee Hee!
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Okay, I'm calling it:
The Psi sets will suck for Blasters as much as they do for Defenders (at least in PvE), but since they'll be primaries to the Blasters, the Blasters won't be able to do anything else of any use, and they'll whine about it all the time. (Also: People taking /Mental will often take Drain Psyche and Build Up ONLY.)
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I think the key for Blasters will be not to go Psi/Mental, but something like Psi/Em or Fire/Mental. Pair the psi damage with a damage type that won't be resisted when Psi is.
I think the way to go will be */Mental myself. Unlike a lot of Manipulation sets, Mental has a couple of ranged attacks, which when added to Build Up and the controls will make a really nice meld with Ice, Fire, hell even Electric.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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They way things are going, a Kinetics MM will be created. for Heroes.
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Unofficial Brownnoser of PWNZ
I kiss the Devs [censored]! -Perfect_Pain
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I'm guessing the numbers behind the Psi/Mind powers will be tweaked downward to balance this set.
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Fixed that for you.
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So unless you are talking like less than defender level damage I just dont see how. Damage will suck so bad no one will want to play it anyways?
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Psychic Shockwave for Dominators is an AOE power which does damage as it if it a single target power. For Blasters, this will not be the case -- the AOE divisor will be in place. In other words, divide damage by 4.75.
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masterfully done castle (not being sarcastic, i swear). now, im curious, does this signal a nerf for psw in doms :-(
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that would be the *end* of /Psi Doms, at a stroke. It's on a par with removing Hide from all Stalker sets.
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Although, it could open up */psi assault to fixes elsewhere.
It's annoying having a set that sucks until it's final power. Better to have a good set with a good Tier 9, than a sucky set that gets an overpowered Tier 9, IMO.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Gang please be patient. I'm not ready to cry "Villains didn't get anything..." until I see the VEAT's. We have to try to not be so short sighted that we can only see whats right under our noses. If you read between the lines everything from Castles admission that Hero Epic Pools are overpowered, to this most recent announcement, it's obvious that balance has been on the devs mind.
The only logical and smart move would be to design VEAT's to have some of what CoV players have been asking for. The Aracnos NPC's are pretty Mez and Psi resistant. Fortunata's have a cool Mind-link power (and in many respect are psi blasters themselves). The Wolf-Spiders, shudder, have you tried to hold those guys?!?!?!
It only stands to reason the player versions of these will have even more powers. My prediction, the VEAT's will eclipse powers that heros get in this issue. I expect to see posts of ZOMG the Villain Epic AT's are too overpowered.
My level 50 Dominators:
Madame Mindbender 50 Mind/Energy
Fly Agaric 50 Plant/Thorn
Nate Nitro 50 Fire/Psi
<QR>
Wow, whine overload.
/psi, just by the descriptions, doesn't look the least bit overpowered to me.
What would make it over or under powered?
NUMBERS!
So, enough with the whining and wait until we've seen those please.
I do really like the fact that they threw a cone in a secondary, so I can pick that up for primaries that I'd like a cone with (elec) or an additional cone for cone madness (sonic).
Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
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Wow, whine overload.
/psi, just by the descriptions, doesn't look the least bit overpowered to me...Lulz
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Unofficial Brownnoser of PWNZ
I kiss the Devs [censored]! -Perfect_Pain
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Reading some of the reply I had to stop because all I read were:
Whine whine whine WHINE whine whine.
Just wonder if you all are like this in the real world, if you are then explains why the planet is going down the toilet.
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oh I fully agree Jutey. This whole issue has been nothing but whining since it was announced...
VEATs? "It's not nictus! WTF! Why can't my heroes wear arachnos costumes!?!"
Powerset Proliferation? "omg psi blasters, omg cold defender, WTF elec stalkers!?! = devs hate villain side clearly"
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The best part is watching people whine about whining. Priceless.
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Reading some of the reply I had to stop because all I read were:
Whine whine whine WHINE whine whine.
Just wonder if you all are like this in the real world, if you are then explains why the planet is going down the toilet.
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oh I fully agree Jutey. This whole issue has been nothing but whining since it was announced...
VEATs? "It's not nictus! WTF! Why can't my heroes wear arachnos costumes!?!"
Powerset Proliferation? "omg psi blasters, omg cold defender, WTF elec stalkers!?! = devs hate villain side clearly"
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The best part is watching people whine about whining. Priceless.
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People love to complain about complaining, it is one of humanity's stupider traits.
Unofficial Brownnoser of PWNZ
I kiss the Devs [censored]! -Perfect_Pain
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Empathy isnt a villainous trait, generally speaking. From a fiction standpoint, it will likely never be given to Villains as a set.
Back to thematics Empathy isnt really a villainous trait. From a fiction standpoint, it wasnt our first choice to port over and the reason corruptors didnt receive it in the first place as part of the release of City of Villains. If we were to add an Empathy Like set, it would need to be all new and not a port of it, to make it fit into the Villainous theme. As such, that fell out of the scope of Issue 12s powerset proliferation and is why it wasnt included.
[/ QUOTE ]
My dear Doctor:
If you ignore the word 'Empathy' and simply look at what the powerset does, there's nothing uniquely heroic about it. Most of the powers don't even tie in to the intended 'empathy' theme at all. Fortitude? Adrenalin Boost? Regeneration Aura? Recovery Aura? These are much more to do with bioenergetics than with Empathy.
The only power that actually reflects the powerset's supposed theme is Absorb Pain.
It seems to me that a purely mechanical issue is being determined by story concerns. Moreover, those story concerns seem to be based upon the title of the powerset (Empathy) rather than its actual theme and function (body boosting and restoration). So we're forced to ask if this is really such a big deal as it appears, especially since the Empathy title seems fairly arbitrary.
At least the Poison powerset involves the character spitting nasty stuff out. That's not very heroic, I grant you. Heroes may breathe fire, but spitting is a bit gross. But I don't believe there's one single animation in the Empathy set that isn't already found over in the Villain powersets.
The last time story concerns were allowed to dominate mechanical ones, we had the Patron Power Pools, and nobody needs me to recap the issues people had (and still have) with those.