Discussion: Full Powerset Proliferation Revealed
By
13th_Stranger,
Posted on: 2008-03-28 11:16 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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The only problem I see is that regen has no taunt aura at all. I'm not sure if brutes need a taunt aura, but I think they would. This would be a bit more work and that alone would require it to be pushed back as they were only doing easy ports this time. I imagine they would have to add a taunt aura part to Integration to make regen work for brutes. Or use Rise to the Challenge. Regen for brutes would need to be tweaked a bit.
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Nah, Brutes don't 'need' taunt auras. They can be helpful, but are not strictly necessary. EA doesn't have one, neither does SR. I'm pretty sure the reason Brutes haven't gotten Regen yet is because the devs think it would be overpowered. I basically agree with them. WP is ok because it has much higher toggle costs and requires taking extra aggro to get it's high regen. Regeneration only has one toggle and doesn't need to take aggro at all.
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...And we all know just how effective Energy Aura is 
um wth does that have to do with anything we're talking about here?
EAs effectiveness (or lack thereof) has absolutely 0 to do with it not having an aggro aura.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Those heroes complaining about fire/fire....they're idiots.
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Amen Brutha! I thought this was the most significant addition next to Psi Blast Blasters in PvP. I dont think people understand just how much damage scraps can do now with not one, but 2 build ups!!! It will far and above surpas anything a blaster can do, but in melee form. To not say that the heros got just a little bit of love here would be pure ignorance on anyones part.
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Widen your focus a bit, and you will understand. Most of us are looking at these new powersets for their impact on PvE. Just like those of who are going, "Psi Blasters? That's going to suck at low levels. Vazh and Clockworks resist Psi, don't they?" The PvE'ers wonder what all the hubbub is about because the vast majority of them don't PvP, not even casually.
I'm "meh" about Fire / Fire because I hate the animations of Incinerate, Fire Sword Circle and Greater Fire Sword Circle and because Temperature Protection is a joke (it does make it easier to plan a build when there are couple powers in either your Powersets that are throwaways). I think it will be a strong combo, but I'm not real excited to play it.
Since I don't PvP, it took me a while to figure out why a lot of PvP'ers were mad about Psi Blast. In the end, it isn't just about Psi Blast, Psi Blast just exacerbates a problem. The real problem is the number and quality of buffs available on hero-side PvP combined with a damage type that most villain-side PvP'ers haven't had to, and is very difficult to, plan for. Add to this that Psi Blasters with Energy Manipulation as a Secondary can also do this at extreme range, and I see where PvP'ers are concerned.
So, cut folks some slack. The reason why most of the folks seem so ignorant about the power of these sets in PvP is because they are. There are only two ways they are going to understand, experience or reasonable discourse. I have actually read almost all of the posts in the assorted Power Proliferation threads, and let me tell you, there is an average of one reasonable post per three pages. With so many people fanning the flames higher, don't be surprised if people don't hang out to find those reasonable posts that will help them understand.
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I just had an epiphany while reading all of these "Devs Hate Villains" posts.
The problem isn't the powersets being proliferated.
Let that sink in for a minute....
Which powersets, exactly, do Villains want that they don't have in some form. Masterminds want /Kin, but Corrupters have /Kin, so it's not like Masterminds don't have access to it.
Aside from the Blaster Manipulation sets, which aren't easily portable, the only portable sets unique to Heroes that Villains don't have in some form after this Proliferation are Illusion Control, Empathy, Broadsword, and Katana. Every single balance issue you are complaining about now would still exist if all of the remaining complete sets were ported over.
So, which powersets would fix the problem of Hero / Villain balance?
I submit to you that no Powerset proliferation will be enough for you, because Powersets aren't the issue. No matter what you get from a proliferation, Blasters will always PWN Villains because they have access to Energy Manipulation and the APPs. At this point, they can't just shoehorn the best powers of the Blaster Manipulation sets (for example: Conserve Power, Boost Range and Power Boost) into any of the Villains sets. Archetype design, Energy Manipulation and APPs are the things that are causing the imbalance you bemoan, not "the heroes are getting our good powers."
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You obviously only half understand the problem. Currently heroes have access to empathy, sonics, and FF. Those can all be powerboosted (thanks to the ability to take powerboost from an epic set) for effects that dwarf anything a villain can do. Now, two more powers are being added for hero powerboosting enjoyment, thermal and cold.
First of all, corruptor buffs and debuffs aren't as good as those defenders get. Second, defenders are able to get powerboost to DOUBLE the effect whern corrupters cant.
Yea, I think we're a little upset that not only are you taking the villain sets that you didn't have access to, AND are going to be able to powerboost the effects, but add insult to injury, villains aren't getting the sets we most wanted (regen or ice armor for brutes, empathy for corrupters, kinetics for MMs, BS for brutes, illusion for doms). The power sets villains wanted the most weren't made available while some of the BEST powersets that villains have were made available to heroes.
THAT is why we are upset. Balanced is screwed up enough as it is....This is just going to make it worse.
and I keep saying: None of that matters.
Cold Domination adds exactly TWO things that Heroes couldn't ALREADY do. Frostworks and Benumb. That's it. Neither of those is effected by Power Boost.
Thermal adds NOTHING. Heroes could already do EVERYTHING Thermal can do.
So can you explain to me again just exactly how does that effect balance in any way?
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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It seems typical of the forums of late. Devs say were getting 20 powersets ported over, and people cannot seem to find the good in this. The list gets announced and the first 30 posts all seem to be "OMG DEV HATEZ VLZ< I GONNA CRI NOW!"
*sigh*
I don't think they could have released a list of sets that would have made the community happy.
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Ice armor or regen for my brute would have made me happy.
Broadsword for a brute would have made me happy.
Empathy for corrupters would have made me happy.
Kinetics for MMs would have made me happy.
Illusion for Doms would have made me happy.
Giving scrappers energy aura would have made me happy.
Giving tankers energy aura would have made me happy.
(why should villains be stuck with the ultimate in craptastic)
Giving thermal and cold secondaries to heroes, who will use the buffs to MORE effect than us to start with, and then will be able to powerboost them on top of it....that is guaranteed to make people angry.
Giving scrappers fire/fire so they can Fiery Embrace+BU+Greater firesword crit +dots = 1 shot kill. let alone however many other attacks they can get off in that time period......sorry, not going to make villains happy.
Heroes recieved very very GOOD powersets, while villains recieved garbage in return (with a POSSIBLE exception of storm secondary). And for those who are hoping and praying the VEATs make up for it.....COME ON. You know deep in your hearts that anything made for villains has to be WORSE than warshades and peacebringers......and those are pretty poor excuses for ATs.
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and I keep saying: None of that matters.
Cold Domination adds exactly TWO things that Heroes couldn't ALREADY do. Frostworks and Benumb. That's it. Neither of those is effected by Power Boost.
Thermal adds NOTHING. Heroes could already do EVERYTHING Thermal can do.
So can you explain to me again just exactly how does that effect balance in any way?
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example: There are plenty of losers who 2box in PvP and some that even find it necessary to 3box in order to be successful. Given this fact, imagine this: Psi/Psi blaster (so you have a damage type that most people don't have defense or resistance to), with a combination of Frostworks, forge, ice shields, fire shields, ALL POWERBOOSTED. Now, imagine a hearo group running around with all of the above, plus fortitude, CM/clarity, sonic shields, regen aura.
GET THE PICTURE?!!!!
Heroes are already able to outbuff villains by an enormeous margin thanks to powerboost. Now its just going to get worse.
I'm sorry, that's ridiculous. Thermal and Cold are good, but as I've mentioned before they have VERY LITTLE that Heroes could not ALREADY do.
Meanwhile villains got Storm Summoning and Earth Control, two of the MOST POWERFUL sets Heroes have.
The fact that you ignore Earth Control and say POSSIBLY to Storm Summoning just shows that you don't know what you're talking about.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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and I keep saying: None of that matters.
Cold Domination adds exactly TWO things that Heroes couldn't ALREADY do. Frostworks and Benumb. That's it. Neither of those is effected by Power Boost.
Thermal adds NOTHING. Heroes could already do EVERYTHING Thermal can do.
So can you explain to me again just exactly how does that effect balance in any way?
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example: There are plenty of losers who 2box in PvP and some that even find it necessary to 3box in order to be successful. Given this fact, imagine this: Psi/Psi blaster (so you have a damage type that most people don't have defense or resistance to), with a combination of Frostworks, forge, ice shields, fire shields, ALL POWERBOOSTED. Now, imagine a hearo group running around with all of the above, plus fortitude, CM/clarity, sonic shields, regen aura.
GET THE PICTURE?!!!!
Heroes are already able to outbuff villains by an enormeous margin thanks to powerboost. Now its just going to get worse.
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No, think about what you are saying. The ONLY thing that you have added is Frostworks. The Blaster can ALREADY get Force Fields, Sonic Rings, Fortitude, etc. Adding Thermal and Cold buffs ONLY ADDS FROSTWORKS. NOTHING is different other than Frostworks.
In exchange Villains can now use Storm Summoning, one of the best PvP sets there is.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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And for those who are hoping and praying the VEATs make up for it.....COME ON. You know deep in your hearts that anything made for villains has to be WORSE than warshades and peacebringers......and those are pretty poor excuses for ATs.
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Nope. I don't know that.
I really don't think the devs wake up in the morning and say "Now, how can we screw over villains today?" I think they genuinely want to create a game that is fun to play. It is my belief that the CoX game developers would be most happy if -both- sides of the game rocked and did so in a thorough and consistent manner.
I think they're doing the best they can but, until recently have been seriously limited by a dearth of resources. Would I like the developers to give redside more attention? Hells, yes. But I hope and believe that, with the VEATs, they'll achieve something that feels powerful and cool in regular play, but not something that's broken just to 'prove' to villains that they aren't being ignored.
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and I keep saying: None of that matters.
Cold Domination adds exactly TWO things that Heroes couldn't ALREADY do. Frostworks and Benumb. That's it. Neither of those is effected by Power Boost.
Thermal adds NOTHING. Heroes could already do EVERYTHING Thermal can do.
So can you explain to me again just exactly how does that effect balance in any way?
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example: There are plenty of losers who 2box in PvP and some that even find it necessary to 3box in order to be successful. Given this fact, imagine this: Psi/Psi blaster (so you have a damage type that most people don't have defense or resistance to), with a combination of Frostworks, forge, ice shields, fire shields, ALL POWERBOOSTED. Now, imagine a hearo group running around with all of the above, plus fortitude, CM/clarity, sonic shields, regen aura.
GET THE PICTURE?!!!!
Heroes are already able to outbuff villains by an enormeous margin thanks to powerboost. Now its just going to get worse.
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So, it is going to get worse HOW? Other than Frostworks, NONE of the buffs you mentioned are new...each of the buffs already exist in either Empathy, Sonic, or FF. So what buff suddenly changed to boost the heroes in PvP?
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It seems typical of the forums of late. Devs say were getting 20 powersets ported over, and people cannot seem to find the good in this. The list gets announced and the first 30 posts all seem to be "OMG DEV HATEZ VLZ< I GONNA CRI NOW!"
*sigh*
I don't think they could have released a list of sets that would have made the community happy.
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Ice armor or regen for my brute would have made me happy.
Broadsword for a brute would have made me happy.
Empathy for corrupters would have made me happy.
Kinetics for MMs would have made me happy.
Illusion for Doms would have made me happy.
Giving scrappers energy aura would have made me happy.
Giving tankers energy aura would have made me happy.
(why should villains be stuck with the ultimate in craptastic)
Giving thermal and cold secondaries to heroes, who will use the buffs to MORE effect than us to start with, and then will be able to powerboost them on top of it....that is guaranteed to make people angry.
Giving scrappers fire/fire so they can Fiery Embrace+BU+Greater firesword crit +dots = 1 shot kill. let alone however many other attacks they can get off in that time period......sorry, not going to make villains happy.
Heroes recieved very very GOOD powersets, while villains recieved garbage in return (with a POSSIBLE exception of storm secondary). And for those who are hoping and praying the VEATs make up for it.....COME ON. You know deep in your hearts that anything made for villains has to be WORSE than warshades and peacebringers......and those are pretty poor excuses for ATs.
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The crap fest that is energy aura thank goodness we did not get that .I hope that is the last power set they port over in fact the brutes can keep it for all I care
Fire/fire is cool with me I want stone melee but no way that can be a direct port over
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um wth does that have to do with anything we're talking about here?
EAs effectiveness (or lack thereof) has absolutely 0 to do with it not having an aggro aura.
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Chill out man or you might blow a gasket. Were you that offended by my comment that you had to post something in reply to it that does nothing but escalate the already tense mood of this thread? I was simply stating that all the secondary sets that brutes "use" have taunt aurus. Energy auru is the one set that doesnt have a taunt aura and coincidentally enough, and I do truly mean "coincidentally", it is also the least used brute secondary. I was simply making a funny. Is that allowed, or have things become too serious around here to even attempt to lighten up the mood? Some People need to untighten there screws a little bit. Sheesh!
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I don't think they could have released a list of sets that would have made the PVP community happy.
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Ice armor or regen for my brute would have made me happy.
Broadsword for a brute would have made me happy.
Empathy for corrupters would have made me happy.
Kinetics for MMs would have made me happy.
Illusion for Doms would have made me happy.
Giving scrappers energy aura would have made me happy.
Giving tankers energy aura would have made me happy.
(why should villains be stuck with the ultimate in craptastic)
Giving thermal and cold secondaries to heroes, who will use the buffs to MORE effect than us to start with, and then will be able to powerboost them on top of it....that is guaranteed to make people angry.
Giving scrappers fire/fire so they can Fiery Embrace+BU+Greater firesword crit +dots = 1 shot kill. let alone however many other attacks they can get off in that time period......sorry, not going to make villains happy.
Heroes recieved very very GOOD powersets, while villains recieved garbage in return (with a POSSIBLE exception of storm secondary). And for those who are hoping and praying the VEATs make up for it.....COME ON. You know deep in your hearts that anything made for villains has to be WORSE than warshades and peacebringers......and those are pretty poor excuses for ATs.
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Funny that you didn't address the Archetypes that are ticking you off and telling us which sets they could have gotten that would have made you happy
Blasters could have gotten Psi Blast, Dark Blast or Radiation Blast. Which would you rather have had to deal with, Power and Range Boosted -Recharge, -Accuracy or -Defense?
Controllers already have every other hard control set, all that was left was Plant Control. The possible Secondaries were Cold Domination, Thermal Radiation, Dark Miasma, Traps and Poison. Which would you have rather had? Only Dark Miasma is not unique to Villains. Would rather face Power Build Up + -recharge from Cold Domination, Forge from Thermal Radiation, -accuaracy from Dark Miasma, Forcefield Generator from Traps, or Envemom and Antidote from Poison?
Same question for Defenders?
You say Energy Aura for Tanks would have made you happy. Since they already had Energy Melee, Tanks would have probably gotten Broadsword.
You say you wanted Scrappers to get Energy Aura, too. Are you sure? You know the Devs like to present matched sets. If Scrappers had gotten Energy Aura, dollars to dougnuts they would have gotten Energy Melee. I know you would have been pleased to see that.
The problem is archetype design and APPs. Powersets are inconsequential. You would have found a reason to complain no matter what Defenders, Controllers and Blasters got, because they are simply more useful in team PvP than any of the Villain Archetypes. This is the problem that needs to be addressed. Screaming about the powersets when there is a much larger issue is like running through a forest blindfolded. You run into a lot of trees, but you have a hard time getting out of the forest. Granting Villains APPs so that Villains will have access to Power Build Up is only a partial fix because Defenders, with the magnitude of their buffs, will always outperform any of the Villain ATs with Power Build Up.
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Meh. It's all just a tempest in a teapot anyway.
The Devs have already revealed (MANY times) that all or most of the powersets will get ported between red and blue sides. This first batch is the way it is because the powers selected were the quickest to get ready (mostly for animation reasons) and test for balance.
Hay-Seuss Cripes people. Patience.
Of course, the individuals pissing and moaning the most will still be complaining later on when everything is finished being swapped around. You know... because MM's won't get kinetics or some other insane demand. 
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Well they might get a modifed Kinetics (along with a huge nerf to Fire/Kins) and a heavily modified Empathy-like powerset, but it just "wont be the same".
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um wth does that have to do with anything we're talking about here?
EAs effectiveness (or lack thereof) has absolutely 0 to do with it not having an aggro aura.
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Chill out man or you might blow a gasket. Were you that offended by my comment that you had to post something in reply to it that does nothing but escalate the already tense mood of this thread? I was simply stating that all the secondary sets that brutes "use" have taunt aurus. Energy auru is the one set that doesnt have a taunt aura and coincidentally enough, and I do truly mean "coincidentally", it is also the least used brute secondary. I was simply making a funny. Is that allowed, or have things become too serious around here to even attempt to lighten up the mood? Some People need to untighten there screws a little bit. Sheesh!
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It just seemed to me that having a taunt aura would help a brute keep aggro and thus build fury faster. If EA doesn't have a taunt aura and it is the least used brute secondary, that might not be coincidence.
So how would /regen be too powerful on brutes as a straight port with no taunt aura, when the only other brute secondary without a taunt aura is seen as crap? Personally, I would want a taunt aura.
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You can take Taunt
EA doesnt have problems getting Fury, it has a problem surviving. An aggro aura would not be good, the set has enough trouble living through the aggro generated just by attacking.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Wow, I see a lot of hate and ungratefulness on this thread. Haven't we learned from Dual Swords? Everyone hated them before they were even released because "it was just another sword power". Then when they announced that you could customize any weapon and you saw dual swords beautiful animations, everyone loved it.
Now there is nothing wrong with criticism. How else are the Devs going to know what to put in and what to take out? Even so, there are helpful suggestions and this.
The point is rather then spewing a hate speech on how the Devs have screwed up again, how about we act mature about it and politely tell them what they could improve or change about the new powers. Honestly, I am glad they actually update so frequently.
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I like the idea of playing a Storm/MM but I don't see what is so dominating about Kinetic MM's. Yes, they'd deal a lot of damage, but the trade off is that your heal is awful, and Masterminds have no real use for all the +stamina options. We'd all be using it to simply make our guys hit a bit harder. At level 38, with Fulcrum Shift, this could be impressive, but earlier on simply stealing power isn't that big of a deal.
I guess making attack speed faster is a big deal too. . . I'm looking forward to making an electric/kinetics corrupter and actually trying to work the "stamina drain" angle.
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I like the idea of playing a Storm/MM but I don't see what is so dominating about Kinetic MM's. Yes, they'd deal a lot of damage, but the trade off is that your heal is awful, and Masterminds have no real use for all the +stamina options. We'd all be using it to simply make our guys hit a bit harder. At level 38, with Fulcrum Shift, this could be impressive, but earlier on simply stealing power isn't that big of a deal.
I guess making attack speed faster is a big deal too. . . I'm looking forward to making an electric/kinetics corrupter and actually trying to work the "stamina drain" angle.
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Transfusion: Killer AoE heal for melee henchemen. Okay for others if you control them right or the mob is on your ranged guys. Added benefit of fast recharge, fast cast time, -reg and a minor end loss.
-Compare to: Twighlight Grasp: The AoE on this is targetted around you meaning you need to be close to those you want healed and the activation time is longer. Added benefit of -acc/-dam. This is the only other AoE heal avail to masterminds. Triage beacon isn't a heal, it's more of a reg buff.
Siphon Power: AoE buff centered around MM. With this he can one-shot buff every one of his hencheman. Added benefit that it also debuffs the mob.
-Compare to: Nothing. There's no other AoE buffs like this in any of the other MM secondaries. Add it to something like Serum though from merc prim...
Siphon Speed: Huge buff for the MM. +rech for them, -rech for foe. Siphon speed + hasten + IO's that buff recharge...
-Compare to: Nothing. There's nothing in any of the other secondaries which would compare to this.
Speed Boost: +Run/Rech/Reco. Your henchies are now machines. They move faster, recover end faster and are shooting/swinging etc etc a hell of a lot faster. Spped boost can make a huge difference in how affective someone/something is.
Compare to: Nothing. There is nothing in any of the secondaries which compares to this.
Transference: AoE end buff and end drain on enemy.
Compare to: Nothing. Again there's nothing in any of the other secondaries which compares to this.
And finally, Fulcrum Shift: Super damage AoE buff galore. And again there's nothing in any other secondary that comes close.
You're very dismissive in your post about the pro's of a kin mm. And as much as I'd love a kin mm they would be extremely overpowered. Kin would end up being so gutted as to almost be a new power-set completely.
Seriously... if anyone has any doubts... team with a kinetic. Run a mission with your guys as normal solo. Then run it with the kinetic. There's going to be no comparisson. And for a real test, don't use your secondary and don't let them use their other set. You only use your MM prim and they only can use the kinetic set.
You could pretty much emulate what having kinetics as your secondary would be like doing that. Compare the difference.
Hmm, some comments:
Blasters: Maybe a tad overpowered, but no aim in the set so it might balance things out. Cool to get a new secondary.
Corruptor: Pretty much expected and put together for theme reasons. Hopes for normal blue lightning though....
Controller: Plant is cool, but for theme reasons poison should have been ported over. Would have made controllers stand out from defenders too. Thermal will offer thematic synergy with fire control though.
Dominator: Earth is too similar to plant imo, but its ok to include it for sake of completenes. Elec assault? Would have preferred shadow assault (dark) myself, but heres to hoping they will throw in two all new sets in the future, magnetic domination and stone assault.
Defender: Ice is a good all perpose set with a little of everything. Ice blast for completenes sake.
Mastermind: Storm is not going to be popular with the melee pet crowd....
Brute: Super reflexes......lol 
Stalker: Lightning rod alpha strike from hidden + BU. Who needs a corruptor to nuke anymore.....
Personally I would have liked to see ice/ice for stalkers, as it will not hurt them like it would brutes.....
Tank: Its ok.
Scrapper: Fire/fire tanks allready outdamaged certain blaster builds. Fire/fire with higher dmg cap and criticals is just damn scary.....
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General Thrax - Lvl 50 Mercenaries / Poison / Mace mastery Mastermind - Freedom
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Controller: Plant is cool, but for theme reasons poison should have been ported over. Would have made controllers stand out from defenders too. Thermal will offer thematic synergy with fire control though.
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Poison couldn't be a direct port. They'd need a totally new tier 9. Thermal was easy as a straight port.
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The only problem I see is that regen has no taunt aura at all. I'm not sure if brutes need a taunt aura, but I think they would. This would be a bit more work and that alone would require it to be pushed back as they were only doing easy ports this time. I imagine they would have to add a taunt aura part to Integration to make regen work for brutes. Or use Rise to the Challenge. Regen for brutes would need to be tweaked a bit.
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Nah, Brutes don't 'need' taunt auras. They can be helpful, but are not strictly necessary. EA doesn't have one, neither does SR. I'm pretty sure the reason Brutes haven't gotten Regen yet is because the devs think it would be overpowered. I basically agree with them. WP is ok because it has much higher toggle costs and requires taking extra aggro to get it's high regen. Regeneration only has one toggle and doesn't need to take aggro at all.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.