Discussion: Full Powerset Proliferation Revealed
By
13th_Stranger,
Posted on: 2008-03-28 11:16 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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But, then again, that'll flood the boards with things such as "ZOMG fix my ice brute's broken fury bar!" and "ZOMG kin MMs are just SICK in PvP!" ... and let's not forget the "ZOMG Ill/ doms can't build domination on 4 powers alone!"
Sorry, peeps...that was my random rant for being sick and tired
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Or how about ZOMG people are voicing their opinions as is their right thanks to the subscription they pay!!!
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Or how about ZOMG people who disagree with the whiners are also voicing their opinions as is their right thanks to the subscription they pay!!!
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What do you expect in a thread like this 100% "All hail the devs greatness" posts?
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You must be referring to a different thread than this one. 
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
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villains got PWNED once again... gg devs
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villains got PWNED once again... gg devs
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Oh come on.
At least come up with something original to say rather than just quote what someone else quoted. All that tells people is that you can't form a statement of your own.
/sarcasm
Way to post constructively.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
The Devs have done a nice job of giving the Heroes the "bread and butter" sets from the villains. Meanwhile the villains get the short end of the stick.
Why is this? Because there are more hero subscribers? Because Positron doesn't care about balance in PvP?
The answer is both. Lets face it Posi is a PVE cake eater.
What I don't understand is how Posi can make a leap of faith and give blasters psi blast and psi manipulation. Then pledge to monitor the situation closely, but he can't make the same leap of faith with giving masterminds kinetics, corruptors empathy(yes, it would be nice to kill hamidon before rapture), or dominators illusion (and don't tell me an Illusion/Psi dom would have problems generating domination). To watch the double talk in the announcement turns my stomach. Furthermore, knowing that I am gonna have to endure 6-8 months before the Devs may make a half arsed attempt to right some of the wrongs in issue 12 makes me feel tenative about playing the villain side.
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The Devs have done a nice job of giving the Heroes the "bread and butter" sets from the villains. Meanwhile the villains get the short end of the stick.
Why is this? Because there are more hero subscribers? Because Positron doesn't care about balance in PvP?
The answer is both. Lets face it Posi is a PVE cake eater.
What I don't understand is how Posi can make a leap of faith and give blasters psi blast and psi manipulation. Then pledge to monitor the situation closely, but he can't make the same leap of faith with giving masterminds kinetics, corruptors empathy(yes, it would be nice to kill hamidon before rapture), or dominators illusion (and don't tell me an Illusion/Psi dom would have problems generating domination). To watch the double talk in the announcement turns my stomach. Furthermore, knowing that I am gonna have to endure 6-8 months before the Devs may make a half arsed attempt to right some of the wrongs in issue 12 makes me feel tenative about playing the villain side.
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Well said!
They should change the Name of the game to City of unbalance. Its laughable, stalkers with aoes, hahaha.
*hides from cake eating pve'ers*
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The Devs have done a nice job of giving the Heroes the "bread and butter" sets from the villains. Meanwhile the villains get the short end of the stick.
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WTH are you smoking?
Cold and Thermal are not bread and butter sets. FF and Sonic are bread and butter. Storm and Earth Control are bread and butter. Cold and Thermal are hybrid multitaskers.
It's this sort of irrational, nonsensical whining that constantly devalues the legitimate criticisms that many villain players have.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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The Devs have done a nice job of giving the Heroes the "bread and butter" sets from the villains. Meanwhile the villains get the short end of the stick.
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WTH are you smoking?
Cold and Thermal are not bread and butter sets. FF and Sonic are bread and butter. Storm and Earth Control are bread and butter. Cold and Thermal are hybrid multitaskers.
It's this sort of irrational, nonsensical whining that constantly devalues the legitimate criticisms that many villain players have.
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I have to agree with this...Thermal and Cold are definently not bread and butter sets... Doesn't stop them from being cool as hell as hybrids though.
But Storm is a pretty good PvP set, though. *Nods*
With love,
Me! <3
My Characters
Story Arcs Looking for Feedback:
Serving Vengeance:#419748 (For Villains/Vigilantes) (Drama/Mystery) (Viable Within Canon)
Dark Moon Rising: #13170 (For Heroes/Vigilantes) (Horror/Mystery) (Non-Canon)
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Regarding Grandville: The lag generated there appears to be machine related, not particularly connection related (within reason). For example, I am on a very slow DSL connection, but experience no lag within the zone. A SG mate with a much faster connection but lower end machine is constantly having problems there. There have been some rather exhaustive discussions by people who have performed some rather in depth graphical analysis in the tech forums, but those may have been cleaned in the last purge.
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Grandville lag has a well-known solution.
More computer memory.
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That is only a partial solution. It also requires either a nice graphics card or much lower settings than other zones. However, the point I was responding to was someone asserting that Grandville lag was caused by his connection being only DSL, which is HIGHLY unlikely.
Co-Founder: Hand of Justice, Champion Server
Currently published arcs:
1) Azuria's Difficulties (arc: 55639) - Ver 1.2
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The Devs have done a nice job of giving the Heroes the "bread and butter" sets from the villains. Meanwhile the villains get the short end of the stick.
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WTH are you smoking?
Cold and Thermal are not bread and butter sets. FF and Sonic are bread and butter. Storm and Earth Control are bread and butter. Cold and Thermal are hybrid multitaskers.
It's this sort of irrational, nonsensical whining that constantly devalues the legitimate criticisms that many villain players have.
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WTF are you smoking, Therm is the best villains have and now the heroes get it too. I can just tell by your statement that your a PVE cake eater.
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Dominators get Earth as a new primary. Huh... ok. Pretty sure everybody wanted Illusion though. I'll come back to Illusion in a while. As a thematic fit to Earth, they also get... Electric Manipulation!? Hopefully not just a straight port of the blaster secondary, please!
Rating: 2/5
MasterMinds don't get a new primary as there was none to port over. This is fair enough but I hope you'll be working on one for I13 because MasterMinds will otherwise have the fewest choices of primary. For their secondary they get... Storm!? Firstly that's already being ported over for Corruptors. Secondly it's a notoriously chaotic set unless handled expertly. Storm MasterMinds are not going to be sought out for teams, that's for sure. You have a problem with porting sets to MMs because they can easily become overpowered so I'm not surprised to see that Kin or Rad weren't given to them, but Sonics seemed like a nice choice.
Empathy should really have gone to the MMs to provide access to its particular talents for villains, and the set clearly matches up with the concerns of a MasterMind without being too powerful (Name too heroic? Change it. Fortitude too much? Tweak the recharge, as has been done with many MM secondaries).
Rating: 2/5
Brutes get two new primaries, both of which are extremely similar. Nothing much to say about them, good call devs, please add Broadsword and Spines or Claws next. For their armour they receive... SR!? Why go the effort of porting over a set that's middling to bottom? Everyone wanted Ice! You're the ones with the spreadsheets, there's nothing to say Ice *had* to inflict slows and recharges. Just ditch -recharge and slow and switch it for more -dmg, -tohit, -def or -res. There's nothing to say you couldn't.
Rating: 2/5
Scrappers get Firey Melee. Awesome! Hopefully in the next rounds of proliferation they'll get more of the elemental/non weapon sets. Firey Armour is their second, and is a great fit for a scrapper - better than for a tank, in my personal opinion.
Rating: 5/5
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ZOMG I didnt team with MMs before due to the lack of players who could/would be willing to control their pets. Now that they have one of the most chaotic sets in the game I will team with them even less, which was just north of never anyways. An Emp MM on the other hand, I would have bitten the proverbial bullet and teamed with. I have to say bravo to the devs for making one of the least-liked-for-teams ATs into even more of an annoyance. Just goes to show how much of the subscribers opinons they actually listen to.
...and why do they keep such a distance from the concept of a regen brute? Does the idea of having a brute that can generate fury and hold it becuase of no lack of endurance from Quick recovery at level 6 seem like that scary of a thought? "No, we dont want brutes to be able to utilize their inherent until atleast half way through the game." So what if everyone and their grandma made a regen brute and all other secondaries were ignored from now on. Isnt that what has happened to scrappers on blue side anyways?
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Therm is the best villains have
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I can tell by your statement that you don't know jack about this game.
Not to mention: name one way, just one, in which Heroes having access to Thermal takes away from Villains.
I certainly can't think of any way in which Villains having access to Storm takes away from Heroes.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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ZOMG I didnt team with MMs before due to the lack of players who could/would be willing to control their pets. Now that they have one of the most chaotic sets in the game I will team with them even less, which was just north of never anyways. An Emp MM on the other hand, I would have bitten the proverbial bullet and teamed with. I have to say bravo to the devs for making one of the least-liked-for-teams ATs into even more of an annoyance. Just goes to show how much of the subscribers opinons they actually listen to.
...and why do they keep such a distance from the concept of a regen brute? Does the idea of having a brute that can generate fury and hold it becuase of no lack of endurance from Quick recovery at level 6 seem like that scary of a thought? "No, we dont want brutes to be able to utilize their inherent until atleast half way through the game." So what if everyone and their grandma made a regen brute and all other secondaries were ignored from now on. Isnt that what has happened to scrappers on blue side anyways?
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PEBKAC
Stop blaming the devs for the actions of unskilled players.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Therm is the best villains have
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I can tell by your statement that you don't know jack about this game.
Not to mention: name one way, just one, in which Heroes having access to Thermal takes away from Villains.
I certainly can't think of any way in which Villains having access to Storm takes away from Heroes.
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It doesn't take away from Villains, you're right. But Storm is not even close to a parallel swap for it. Not even close. Giving Empathy to Villains AS Heroes got Thermal is what is parallel. Match the buffs in the Storm set to the ones that Thermal has and then try to be honest and tell me where the balance is. Why people are saying that giving Heroes Thermal is taking away from us is because it's Hero equivalent is not ported over to even the playing field of Buffs. I think that's pretty simple for everyone to understand. Put your Hero pom pom's away please and replace them with some good interpretation skills instead of flaming talents. It really isn't hard to hear what people are saying, even through all of the rants. You and many others have been around here long enough to understand.
Are people complaining about the powers from a pvp perspective or pve...
When I used to play COH and COH only I used to laugh at these posts about being unbalanced...try playing as a villain and then lets see how much you complain...
http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/n...stumes%202011/
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Therm is the best villains have
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I can tell by your statement that you don't know jack about this game.
Not to mention: name one way, just one, in which Heroes having access to Thermal takes away from Villains.
I certainly can't think of any way in which Villains having access to Storm takes away from Heroes.
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It doesn't take away from Villains, you're right. But Storm is not even close to a parallel swap for it. Not even close. Giving Empathy to Villains AS Heroes got Thermal is what is parallel. Match the buffs in the Storm set to the ones that Thermal has and then try to be honest and tell me where the balance is. Why people are saying that giving Heroes Thermal is taking away from us is because it's Hero equivalent is not ported over to even the playing field of Buffs. I think that's pretty simple for everyone to understand. Put your Hero pom pom's away please and replace them with some good interpretation skills instead of flaming talents. It really isn't hard to hear what people are saying, even through all of the rants. You and many others have been around here long enough to understand.
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Except that doesn't exactly hold up. As you specifically point out, the outrage is over buffs. Thermal has buffs that heroes ALREADY HAD. The shields? Sonics. Thaw? Clearmind/Clarity/etc. Forge? Fortitude.
Outrage over not having a buff set is understandable; outrage over heroes getting different graphics on powers that they ALREADY HAD is silly.
Also, many people in various CoV threads had been begging for storm for a while...I have several VG mates who are thrilled about it.
Was it an 'equal exchange?' That is impossible to answer. Villains received access to powers they didn't have; heroes received access to powers they already had in a different set. But that is just one way to look at it...there are many others when arguing an equal exchange.
However, it is without merit to claim no villains wanted storm or that thermal will suddenly make heroes have more power...when they already had the same buffs in other sets.
Would storm and thermal have been my first choices for porting across? Absolutely not. Do I think the game was broken by that decision? Absolutely not.
Co-Founder: Hand of Justice, Champion Server
Currently published arcs:
1) Azuria's Difficulties (arc: 55639) - Ver 1.2
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Are people complaining about the powers from a pvp perspective or pve...
When I used to play COH and COH only I used to laugh at these posts about being unbalanced...try playing as a villain and then lets see how much you complain...
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I agree with your first point. As annoying as it would be, it would be more productive to have either seperate power proliferation threads for pve/pvp OR have some type of tag/heading where people could show what specific area they are addressing.
For example, all of the balance posts are MAINLY PvP (since in PvE it doesn't really matter how you compare to the other factions...just on how well the class/power/whatever works with the same faction). Pure power acceptance/rejection would cross both areas. Etc, etc.
Co-Founder: Hand of Justice, Champion Server
Currently published arcs:
1) Azuria's Difficulties (arc: 55639) - Ver 1.2
yeah, Sampoerna, your argument makes no sense.
"Thermal is kinda like Empathy, so giving villains something other than Empathy is unbalanced."
there is no logic in that argument.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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It's simple majority rules man. Of course you can't please everyone, but you can aim to plz the most players possible. I garantee a simple poll would have clearly shown that Dark/Dark was not what the majority would have chose for tanks....or elec/elec for stalkers and so on.
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You seem to forget that this isn't a democracy (just like any business). The final choice was and is only theirs. Your choice, and others, is will you subscribe or will you find something that you find more entertaining.
They might be still working on balance issues for elec/elec tanks for all we know. For instance maybe something in gauntlet stopped them from including elec/elec.
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Granted this isn't a democracy, but the idea of pleasing the most customers as possible, is still very much a part of your typical business model.
I think that lightning field in electric would have made a great taunt aura. But still, we don't know the devs reasoning and they may have had a good reason for in.
Still, as it has been pointed out, this is the first round of proliferation, so I'm sure we will eventually get to seeing electric/electric brutes running around and hopefully ss and em scrappers.
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind
OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!
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Granted this isn't a democracy, but the idea of pleasing the most customers as possible, is still very much a part of your typical business model.
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You're right: however, you can define "pleasing the most customers as possible" in many ways.
You apparently have chosen "take longer, spend more money, and give out the most expensive powersets after a significant delay."
They have apparently chosen "take less time, spend less money, and give out the easiest sets first, and budget for all the rest later."
Both are valid means to achieve that business model.
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But still, we don't know the devs reasoning and they may have had a good reason for in.
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Says who? They stated very plainly that they were going with the quick-and-easy-to-port power sets first. I fail to see how we didn't know what they had in mind. They said so in plain English.
Why everybody started imagining Electric Tanks, Illusion Dominators, and all the other pie-in-the-sky exchanges, I have no idea.
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ZOMG I didnt team with MMs before due to the lack of players who could/would be willing to control their pets. Now that they have one of the most chaotic sets in the game I will team with them even less, which was just north of never anyways. An Emp MM on the other hand, I would have bitten the proverbial bullet and teamed with. I have to say bravo to the devs for making one of the least-liked-for-teams ATs into even more of an annoyance. Just goes to show how much of the subscribers opinons they actually listen to.
...and why do they keep such a distance from the concept of a regen brute? Does the idea of having a brute that can generate fury and hold it becuase of no lack of endurance from Quick recovery at level 6 seem like that scary of a thought? "No, we dont want brutes to be able to utilize their inherent until atleast half way through the game." So what if everyone and their grandma made a regen brute and all other secondaries were ignored from now on. Isnt that what has happened to scrappers on blue side anyways?
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PEBKAC
Stop blaming the devs for the actions of unskilled players.
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I thought that Stalkers were the least-liked for teams ATs.
And regen gets QR at level 4. I think regen Brutes would be awesome.
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind
OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!
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Granted this isn't a democracy, but the idea of pleasing the most customers as possible, is still very much a part of your typical business model.
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You're right: however, you can define "pleasing the most customers as possible" in many ways.
You apparently have chosen "take longer, spend more money, and give out the most expensive powersets after a significant delay."
They have apparently chosen "take less time, spend less money, and give out the easiest sets first, and budget for all the rest later."
Both are valid means to achieve that business model.
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But still, we don't know the devs reasoning and they may have had a good reason for in.
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Says who? They stated very plainly that they were going with the quick-and-easy-to-port power sets first. I fail to see how we didn't know what they had in mind. They said so in plain English.
Why everybody started imagining Electric Tanks, Illusion Dominators, and all the other pie-in-the-sky exchanges, I have no idea.
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I agree with your business model ideas. And since the devs had said that issue 12 wasn't going to be that "Wow!!", it makes sense for them to take the less time, easiest sets first route.
However, it seemed fairly easy to just port over electric/electric to tanks. And from reading the forums, lots of folks were frothing at the mouth to get an electric/electric tank. I didn't read a single person asking for dark/dark tankers (unless I seriously misread something). Since they could have done a straight port, but didn't for electric, there must have been something with the set that gave them trouble.
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind
OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!
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Granted this isn't a democracy, but the idea of pleasing the most customers as possible, is still very much a part of your typical business model.
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You're right: however, you can define "pleasing the most customers as possible" in many ways.
You apparently have chosen "take longer, spend more money, and give out the most expensive powersets after a significant delay."
They have apparently chosen "take less time, spend less money, and give out the easiest sets first, and budget for all the rest later."
Both are valid means to achieve that business model.
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But still, we don't know the devs reasoning and they may have had a good reason for in.
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Says who? They stated very plainly that they were going with the quick-and-easy-to-port power sets first. I fail to see how we didn't know what they had in mind. They said so in plain English.
Why everybody started imagining Electric Tanks, Illusion Dominators, and all the other pie-in-the-sky exchanges, I have no idea.
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I agree with your business model ideas. And since the devs had said that issue 12 wasn't going to be that "Wow!!", it makes sense for them to take the less time, easiest sets first route.
However, it seemed fairly easy to just port over electric/electric to tanks. And from reading the forums, lots of folks were frothing at the mouth to get an electric/electric tank. I didn't read a single person asking for dark/dark tankers (unless I seriously misread something). Since they could have done a straight port, but didn't for electric, there must have been something with the set that gave them trouble.
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Maybe a tinting problem?
My Characters
Story Arcs Looking for Feedback:
Serving Vengeance:#419748 (For Villains/Vigilantes) (Drama/Mystery) (Viable Within Canon)
Dark Moon Rising: #13170 (For Heroes/Vigilantes) (Horror/Mystery) (Non-Canon)
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Since they could have done a straight port, but didn't for electric, there must have been something with the set that gave them trouble.
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Conserve Power, duh.
Same reason they can't do a straight port of Electric Armor or Ninjitsu to Scrappers. They're not gonna give anyone 2 Conserve Powers or 2 Caltrops (for example).
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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But, then again, that'll flood the boards with things such as "ZOMG fix my ice brute's broken fury bar!" and "ZOMG kin MMs are just SICK in PvP!" ... and let's not forget the "ZOMG Ill/ doms can't build domination on 4 powers alone!"
Sorry, peeps...that was my random rant for being sick and tired
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Or how about ZOMG people are voicing their opinions as is their right thanks to the subscription they pay!!!
What do you expect in a thread like this 100% "All hail the devs greatness" posts?
I don't need to voice my opinion when something is working, but when there is something wrong or just plain not right that is when my opinion is needed. Thats how you change and adapt to your customer base, adapting to the shortcomings that they feel are in existence within reason.
Do I like some of what they did? If I was a hero player, maybe. As it is Villains got royally shafted. Nothing that was ported was anywhere near what a vast majority of the red side player base wanted, and lets not even discuss the PvP implications and further imbalances and heck even the further "If your build is not X, Y or Z you lose" aspect of PvP that will be created by this Issue.
But then again I'll wait patiently till I can try out everything before crying complete doom with what they have done, however as a mostly Villain player, what they ported absolutely was the bottom of the barrel and thats all there is to it. Heroes got some of the arguably "Best" Villain sets there are in Therm and Cold and heck even Plant for PvE only, while we got absolute crap that is bottom of the list for effective in the form of Axe and Mace, Earth, Storm TWICE ( wth is that, thats just lame PERIOD!!! ) and heck MM's dont even get 2 secondaries to make up for the fact that they cant get any primaries due to no other AT having a pet power set for them to take.
We will all have to wait and see what comes of I12, but frankly what was ported isn't gonna make me roll new characters, nor is it gonna make me buy a second account or more slots.
-Sanjiyan
P.S.
Don't spout off about an AT that you obviously never played in your life. Illusion for doms would have worked perfectly fine. You have a whole bloody secondary and all your self cast controls / attacks in the primary to build Dom. Saying that you could not build Dom on an Illusion is a load of *bleep*
Vixens of Violence:
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Psionic Scion - LvL 50 - Mind / Psi / Mu Dom ( Perma w/ 77.5% global currently )
Current Project: Isabella il Veleno
I am an Alt-o-holic =)