Discussion: Full Powerset Proliferation Revealed

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Why not illusions..come on...

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My guess? The heavily pet-based nature of the set doesn't play well with Domination. More of the control and damage in Illusion comes from pets than in any other set, and that part wouldn't benefit from Domination. On top of that, the pets' actions don't contribute to your Domination bar. Combined with the usual scaling of controls between Controllers and Dominators, an Illusion Domination set would offer relatively poor control combined with some lackluster extra damage.

In other words, it's because a Dom Illusion set would suck without some substantial reworking. We may see that reworked version at some point, but for now, we're getting the low-hanging fruit.

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Ditto

Indig , leader of the City of Gaymers

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Heroes
Illusion Control

Empathy

Archery

Broadsword

Katana

Ice Melee

Ice Armor

Devices
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Villains

Energy Aura

Ninjutsu

Ninja Blade

Electric Armor

Electric Melee

Traps

Poison



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Fixed

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Thanks for catching those, Big Soto

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A pretty good post, but really, Ninja Blade and Katana are the same set, NB is just Katana adapted to the Stalker template. Neither count as "exclusive" powersets IMO.

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I think most who've replied in this thread have come to the conclusion that the RED side of things is lacking. This is why many of them (myself included) feel that the powers given to the Heroes pale in comparison to what Heroes got. The 2 most notable things being:
[*] Psychic Blasters
[*] Cold Defenders & Thermal Corruptors.


Our outrage at this decision is very simple.... Heroes already have higher base modifiers for the aspect of which these AT's will be using these powers. Psychic Blasters speak for itself, so I won't provide an opinion on that. Everyone can look though the forum and see that many players (hero & villian alike) think it's too powerful of a set for that particular AT. My main gripe is with the Heroes getting 2 of our Unique Sets that make the most difference in both PvE AND PvP. This isn't about Villains wanting a "healing" set. It's about Heroes now having access to 2 power sets that can be used better than the AT they were designed for. The PvP Community can attest that HEALING isn't what makes a good Support player, its the Buffs/Debuffs combined with the ability to directly Heal. I'm not trying to make this a PVP issue, because it honestly isn't. It's about the lack of efficient Support Villians have in the PvE side of the game. Villians only have 1 comparable Power Set that can be used in the same fashion as the Heroes Empathy. That Power Set is Thermal Radiation. Villians only have 1 AT with access to that Power Set, Corruptors.

Heroes have access to 2 AT's with the ability to provide exceptional support in the PvE game. Controllers have often been called the "Defender's weaker Brother/Sister". They may not be the best early on, but once they get into the Higher End of the game they shine. Most Villian players will tell you that a Dominator (the closest cousin of the Controller) is NO match for them because they lack what makes the Controller so strong....Buff/Debuff abilities. Even the next best comparison of MasterMinds to Controllers is lacking because dispite their ability to Buff their Power Sets are lacking in the ability to provide as much Support as a Controller can.

It's the combination of these facts that has made a lot of Villian players upset. It's as if the Dev's took no consideration for what the Villians lack. The argument that one Power Set is "Good" or "Evil" is asanine. Individuals make Powers "good" or "evil" so that argument doesn't need to be brought up again. Heroes outnumber Villians by direct support AT's 2 to 1 right now. In terms of Power Sets this becomes 3 to 1. Thermal Radiation and Cold Domination are what Villians see as our "niche" in the field of PVE & PVP. It takes a combination of Healing, Buffing, and Debuffing, that makes missions go by quickly. It's that same notion that makes PvP work as well.

Heroes will have have access to 4 Power Sets used by Support oriented AT's where villians have only 1. Some would argue Villians have 2, the latter being a Master Mind, however, those who have played MM's in PvE & PvP know that their first responsibility is to their Henchmen otherwise they won't survive very long. With this comes 2 Power Sets on Heroes have to use in combination with their already impressive arsenal of Buffs and Debuffs.

[*] Controllers - with access to Primal Mastery make them just as strong as Defenders. With some Primaries added in it can make them more effective, Illusion being the most notible for PVP.
[*] Defenders - With access to Power Mastery they become just as dangerous as some Blasters when particular Secondaries get factored in. Most notible Psychic and Sonic for PVP.


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[*] Corruptors - With creativity many have taken to mixing and matching Primaries/ Secondaries/ and Patrons to cover the lack of another Support oriented AT. Most notible are Ice/Rad, Ice/Cold, Ice/Thermal, Ice/Kin, Fire/Rad, Fire/Thermal, and Fire/Kin for PvP.


This still leaves Villians out in the cold. Storm Summoning is a great set. Many players agree with that statement, however, it's shared with a non-Support oriented AT. This isn't the worse thing, but it's also not the best. Corruptors are known for being THE Support AT for Villians where Heroes have Defenders AND Controllers to rely on. Again, Masterminds aren't the worse, but they aren't Controllers. Dominators aren't the worse, but they aren't Controllers, and they damn sure aren't Blasters.

So I'd like to conclude my analysis of what we're (Villians) about to face as yet ANOTHER poor decision by the Devs. I don't have the same faith I used to have when this game was first put out. I've played both Heroes and Villians and I don't understand their logic anymore. I personally believe that if Corruptors were given both Empathy & Storm Summoning things would have been fine. IF MasterMinds were given Empathy things would have been just fine. The same Secondary on each is just a bad Idea.

On the Subject of PvP Balance Between Heroes and Villains:

If getting certain Powersets is going to 'create balance' in PvP, then it's a false balance. Ideally all Powersets should have a chance to shine at PvP. (OK, so maybe some thematic sets are gimped from the get-go in PvP because they deal well with AI but not real I.) If the situation is that the majority of all Powersets are 'weak' in PvP, then the answer is not to give everyone access to the handful of good Powersets, but to make more of the weak ones good ones.

If we give Villains Empathy and the other 'must have' Powersets that rule in PvP, then the Villain PvPers and Hero PvPers will be indistinguishable in PvP mechanics-wise. Fine, I don't have a problem with that, but let's face it, that's not real balance if only five powersets appear in high-end PvP.

Eventually, almost all the Powersets will be shared in some way or the other. NorCal has dropped Cryptic's insistence that ATs have signature Powersets and that certain powers are 'heroic' while others are 'villainous' (distinctions I always disagreed with). Also, with CO 'archetypeless system'* coming down in the pike as competition to CoH/V, NorCal has an even greater incentive to make character creation as diverse as possible.

But once Villains get their hands on the uber PvP Sets, it still won't really balance PvP. The cries of "The Devs hate Villains" will change to "The Devs hate Electric; The Devs hate Plant; etc...."

Balance must come from buffing the weak PvP sets (in PvP) and/or nerfing the uber PvP sets (in PvP). Not from proliferation of powersets which will eventually come about anyway.



* I believe the CO 'archetypeless system' is a myth. They've already created 'purchase classes' wherein powers outside one's class cost more. Those who try to be the jack-of-all-trades tank-mage will wind up with the same build (Kheldian-like). Everyone else will max out the purchasing power in their class creating de facto archetypes. But, this is a wild tangent.

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I want that new blaster! lol and a [u]Blood Window[u] maybe Fire/Fiore controller, or, or ice/ice defender! Not should what I am going to tryu first

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So you can see the world through rose colored glasses?

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Guess I'll post here since rednames don't seem to read the pvp boards (and I guess I can't blame them, especially today.)

First off, I completely understand pvpers basically don't matter to you. I'm not being sarcastic... we make up, to the best of what I can see, maybe 1000 subscriptions.
Out of ~150k, it's obvious that 1k is very very little.
If the pvp community was to all simultaneously cancel their account(s), NCsoft would barely feel it.

That being said, I'd like to say that (again, from what I see) we are OVERWHELMINGLY the most min/maxing of the entire CoX community, and one of the most vocal minorities at showing the devs potential imbalances in powers, sets, and ATs, especially at the higher levels, and end-game content. We study the game, on average, much more than just about any other minor subculture of gamers.

I'd like to think that in a way, most pvpers pull much more than their weight at making the entire game better.

That being said, would it have been too much to ask to actually run a few of these 'proliferation' choices by your playerbase?
With I12, you've singlehandedly widened the gap between hero and villain IMbalance by porting over 2 of the strongest villain sets AND adding a widely unresistible set to the already highest damaging hero AT.
Villains get storm, which is nice indeed, but in no way compensatory for the 3 game-breaking sets heroes just got.

Do you realize that there is NO HvV arena ladder?
Do you understand why?
Do you even openly recognize that the factions are in fact not balanced?

I understand that pve >>>> pvp, financially.
Still... I think you might be underestimating how much we bring to the game, and especially to pve.

I'm assuming these decisions are irreversible for now... so I'd avoid the pvp forums if I were you

That being said, here's something I *would* recommend for I12.1:
- psi blast for corrs
- access to APPs for villains
- VEATs with CM (by Siren's plz), RAs, Fort, and AP.

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Couldn't have posted it better.

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More to come. This is just the beginning.

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Yes, PLEASE re-read this again carefully.

Indig ,leader of the City of Gaymers

Thats all well and good Zombie_Man but what is more likely to happen: A few key sets get ported to villain side or major reworking of most of the sets in the game? We have got to think in realistic terms here for balancing pvp.

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But why should we have to focus on other things now? A forum is meant to express one's distaste.

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A forum is meant to discuss things in the proper time and place. This is not the time or place to bring up the entire list of grievances with City of Villains starting at the dawn of time and continuing up to the present day. This thread is to discuss the revealed new power sets, not to bring up "well Stalkers PVP blah blah, etc., plus Defenders get Power Boost."

The developers are open to reasoned discussion. The number of lies and insults flung in their direction would make me frankly put about half the thread contributors on /ignore, as they clearly have no reasons and no inclination to discuss, and what's more, they hurl lies and invective and exaggerations as if that proves something.

But hey, if anybody wants to be uncivil, go for it. It won't change a damned thing, of course, but it's their right.

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But once Villains get their hands on the uber PvP Sets, it still won't really balance PvP. The cries of "The Devs hate Villains" will change to "The Devs hate Electric; The Devs hate Plant; etc...."

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No way. Everyone knows that the devs just love the Red side. Just look at the way things are now as proof.

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We don't know that for sure. People are jumping to conclusions. Nothing has been tested. People know what they wanted V-side, didn't get it so naturally devs hate them. Forget the fact now that they will be releasing more and this is just the beginning... oh no we didn't get it and get it now so the devs hate us. Fools. Test first, whine later.

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Yes I do know a lot of things for sure. You have to be totally clueless to see that what villains received pales in comparison to what heroes got. Play some villains before accusing someone of being a whiner. There is a difference between whining and just stating the obvious truth.

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First of all, don't speak to her like that. Second of all, does that make you feel like a big boy talking to her like that and calling her a fan-boy? Does that win your argument? Know what babies (real babies, not whiny game players) do when they don't get their way? First they cry... then they throw a temper tantrum and lash out. Guess you're done with the crying part...

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LOL who the heck are you, defender of all internet women? A little biased are we, she jumped on the offensive first. What did you expect me to give her, a welcome party? Please man, spare us the lecture.

Judging by this first round of proliferation, I'm almost scared to see how badly Red is gonna get it in the second and third rounds. Some say Vill side is always crying. Having played both sides, I feel there is legitimate reason. Patron Powers are weak and horrible. The VEAT's may be decent, but the idea of playing a minion is very lack luster, jury still out on this one. The power proliferation? Well, looks like heroes got some of Villains better powersets, while, with exception of Storm, Red got crap. What about EMP's on Red side, or Cold for Brutes (a little Hibernation would be fun in PvP). Personally a hero team in RV with 1 EMP and 1 Thermal, will wreck just about anything Villains can throw at them. You see Villains complaining a lot....maybe there is good cause for this. I know I'd like to use my tier 1 and 2 powers while held. Fortunately, Champions is on the horizon, and is looking promising. Maybe they've learned some important lessons from their time with CoX, listen to all of the players.

I just want to make it clear that I absolutely am in love with Powerset Proliferation and Issue 12 in general, I thing this game's Devs and NC truly care about the happiness and entheusiasm of the Players/Subscribers.

That said I have a serious peeve with the powersets given to 2 of the ATs Redside.

Brutes and Stalkers.

First Stalkers:
They get annother resistance based set. Just as a Brute's lifeline is Fury, a Stalker's lifeline is Hide. A Stalker's ability to hide is dependant on the stalker not being hit. Resistance does not aid in this one bit. There was no reason that stalkers could not have gotten Ice powers since they do not generate fury anyway.

Brutes:
Get a Defensive set... Ok let me get this straight. Brutes can't get Ice Powers because the slows cause the enemies to hit the brute less thereby decreasing Fury generation. But the can get defense based armors which prevent enemies from hitting them at all? I don't get it.

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I would respectfully suggest that you focus your attention on places that really are badly out of balance, lest the forums become The Villains That Cried Wolf. If everybody continues to wail and gnash their teeth at perceived insults from the developers, then the real issues go unheeded. And there are issues: but "omg we gave away Thermal and we didn't get anything" isn't one of them. Villains did get something for it; it just wasn't what you, personally, wanted it to be.

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But why should we have to focus on other things now? A forum is meant to express one's distaste. Also, there is a list of issues that have been produced many, many times, by the Redsiders, but nothing has changed.


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...however I do feel that the lack of powerboost on villain side for buffs and not having an empathy since heroes got thermal is wrong. That is basicly my issue.

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Then why don't you encourage the developers to consider Empathy as a villain set next go-round? That would be much more constructive, and it'd moderate the repetitive "devs hate villains" whine coming from the rest of this thread.

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Personally, I feel the condescending lets attack anyone who dislikes the new Powersets peachiness is far more annoying.

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I never said any of this, next time please use the "reply" or "quote" button when quoting someone.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

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Brutes:
Get a Defensive set... Ok let me get this straight. Brutes can't get Ice Powers because the slows cause the enemies to hit the brute less thereby decreasing Fury generation. But the can get defense based armors which prevent enemies from hitting them at all? I don't get it.

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As has been mentioned many times in this thread, as well as on the Brute boards since launch: fury is generated when someone attacks you...they don't need to hit for it to work.

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Judging by this first round of proliferation, I'm almost scared to see how badly Red is gonna get it in the second and third rounds.

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Good grief. To hear people on the thread tell it, the developers couldn't have chosen more poorly! How can it be worse next time? What powersets could they proliferate that would actually be worse?

It doesnt matter. SR will still be notably worse than even lol EA in pve.

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We don't know that for sure. People are jumping to conclusions. Nothing has been tested. People know what they wanted V-side, didn't get it so naturally devs hate them. Forget the fact now that they will be releasing more and this is just the beginning... oh no we didn't get it and get it now so the devs hate us. Fools. Test first, whine later.

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Yes I do know a lot of things for sure. You have to be totally clueless to see that what villains received pales in comparison to what heroes got. Play some villains before accusing someone of being a whiner. There is a difference between whining and just stating the obvious truth.

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My second 50 was a villain. I was also CoV first wave beta. I've played villains. I play villains. I probably have more serious villain toons than hero toons (yes I suffer from that debilitating disease known as altitis) because with villains came a lot of options allowing one to really make themed toons. Even more-so than before. At least for me. And that includes Praetorian <sp> alts for all my main hero's.

I won't comment on what I don't play, so what defenders, controllers, tanks, stalkers and corrupters get is pointless to me. I don't like the classes so side is irrelevant.

However people are jumping the gun on Psi blasters. Lets see if they're the four horsemen of the apoc made binary code before we assume they are.

Masterminds got the most realistic set for them. Sorry but a rad or kin MM would just be way overpowered without major power revamp.

Brutes got questionable sets, but they were the easiest to port over. Again... this is just the 'first wave' of power ports, so stop foaming at the mouth. Next issue or major patch might bring a whole lot of love villain side.

Scapper fire/fire is bleh to me. I like scrappers but I've 0 interest in a fire/fire so that means nothing to me.

After blasters, my next love is Dominators. I have like 5 of 'em. My only regret there is ele wasn't released sooner with it. This is major cool points from me.

That's my opinion on it... on what I'll actually play. Not my place to DOOM classes I know damned well I don't play.

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First of all, don't speak to her like that. Second of all, does that make you feel like a big boy talking to her like that and calling her a fan-boy? Does that win your argument? Know what babies (real babies, not whiny game players) do when they don't get their way? First they cry... then they throw a temper tantrum and lash out. Guess you're done with the crying part...

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LOL who the heck are you, defender of all internet women? A little biased are we, she jumped on the offensive first. What did you expect me to give her, a welcome party? Please man, spare us the lecture.

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No. She's a fellow mod in a global channel with me. And what you need to understand is that there is a fine line between us and them. Them being the handful of rude people in that channel who are trying to ruin it for the many many many friendly people in the channel. We get verbally abused by them both in game AND on the forums, threatened and harrassed. So you'll understand I might feel a bond for my fellow mods. And as such, you'll understand that you attack my sis I'm going to lecture you all day long. So to answer your question, yeah I guess I am biased about that. Deal with it. I'd like to think you'd stand up for your friends if push came to shove.

Oh, for pity's sake, you couldn't have maybe ported the powers over that people, y'know, wanted?
Dark/Dark tank. *rolls eyes*

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ut giving blue side access to our two BEST powersets and putting them in the hands of players with access to the APPs and unresistable debuffs, etc. is overkill and 100% puts an end to any thought of villains being able to match heroes in zones, raids, or arena.

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regarding the arena part....

so in high level 8 vs 8 pvp what on the cookie cutter run and gun team are you going to drop for a cold fender or thermal troller...

kin makes the cold obsolete
ill/emp is better then having a ill/therm.
sonic brings more to the table as well....shields, cage, clarity...

i dont see those two builds effecting high lvl pvp as much as people might think...duels and small matches is another story.

I'm a happy camper, with these changes.

Thank you, devs.

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I would respectfully suggest that you focus your attention on places that really are badly out of balance, lest the forums become The Villains That Cried Wolf. If everybody continues to wail and gnash their teeth at perceived insults from the developers, then the real issues go unheeded. And there are issues: but "omg we gave away Thermal and we didn't get anything" isn't one of them. Villains did get something for it; it just wasn't what you, personally, wanted it to be.

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But why should we have to focus on other things now? A forum is meant to express one's distaste. Also, there is a list of issues that have been produced many, many times, by the Redsiders, but nothing has changed.


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...however I do feel that the lack of powerboost on villain side for buffs and not having an empathy since heroes got thermal is wrong. That is basicly my issue.

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Then why don't you encourage the developers to consider Empathy as a villain set next go-round? That would be much more constructive, and it'd moderate the repetitive "devs hate villains" whine coming from the rest of this thread.

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Personally, I feel the condescending lets attack anyone who dislikes the new Powersets peachiness is far more annoying.

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I never said any of this, next time please use the "reply" or "quote" button when quoting someone.

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_Dove isn't our brightest forum goer.

While I am loving the addition of power set proliferation, I am disappointed and concerned about the balance between villains & heroes, especially for PVP.

Blasters - I rate this 10/10! Psy/Mental FTW! I will be rolling one for sure

Corruptors - Elec/Storm - 5/10.
I really was hoping corruptors would get the psy blast set like the blasters did.
Storm is OK (I have both a stormy controller & defender).
However I was really hoping corruptors would get either Poison, or Empathy for their secondary! >_<

Controllers - 9/10.
Plant control is a fun & excellent set, with a diverse range of mezzes.
Thermal - oh my - now heroes get thermal buffs? It's an awesome set full of buffs & debuffs & heals.
There are 2 things I hate about thermal - the eye-watering shields that make my eyes bleed from the graphic affect on screen when I am buffed with fire, and, a player spamming that headache inducing thermal heal (yes, I like playing with the sound ON).
I can see super-buffinator-teams hero side with one of each buffer in it (storm, emp, therm, sonic, bubble, kin, cold, rad).

Dominators - 5/10
Earth Control - heh. This is a nice set, with defense debuff (although it won't let you slot IO sets for that). However, I have noticed many players tend to dislike earth controllers, mostly due to the group immobilize (Stone cages?) which causes a huge amount of noise & the appearance of lag, and the scrappers & tanks get pissed off as they can't see anything through the mountain range in their face (makes it very hard to see foes). I really wish they would make this smaller or crystalline in appearance.
Also, I was really hoping for illusion dominators!
Electricity Manipulation - undecided until I see what this set includes (depending what comes across from the different electrical sets).

Defenders - 10/10
Cold Domination - wow. This set is awesome. I love my cold corrupter. And with this power as a PRIMARY for defenders - it will be WAY more powerful... the debuffs are awesome. And yet another shield to buff up the heroes.
Ice Blast - I foresee a lot of Cold/Ice and Storm/Ice defenders in the near future! It is such a fun set with TWO holds and TWO DoT rains love it.

Masterminds - 5/10
Storm Summoning - LOL.
OK for those MM's who KNOW how to use storm, maybe 8/10. Will rock in both PVP and PVE.
For those who don't know how to use storm, will be a team nightmare.
Also, regardless of ability, it gives me another reason to avoid mastermind teams. Why? Well first of all you are cramped in with a zillion pets (cave missions anyone?) put storm on top of this *ugh* use of gale, hurricane, and Lightning Storm will be an absolute nightmare for stalkers & brutes. My dominators & corruptors with AoEs, TAoEs & PBAoEs are going to be frustrated at all the KB stuffing up my little AoE plans (unless the stormy MM knows how to work together with AoE's).
Another problem with storm, is the end cost - the O2 boost is end hungry (almost as bad as poison), along with trying to run steamy mist, hurricane, and leadership... I foresee issues & forced choices for some, careful slotting will be required with set bonuses in mind. For PVP, I think storm MM's will do quite well.

Brutes - 6/10
Battle Axe & War Mace - this will be fun, especially for themed toons.
Super Reflexes - geez. SR is the reason I deleted my scrapper. It is really good, until, you face any sort of foe with accuracy debuffs or bonuses, where you tend to die real fast.

Stalkers - undecided.
Electric Melee & Electric Armor? I'll wait & see what they put & port in these sets.

Tanks - 10/10
Dark Armor - wow. I love my DA scrapper. And to see a tank with DA is going to be awesome. I love this set! Once the end issues are slotted for, this set rocks.
Dark Melee - another fun set for tanks, the acc debuffs will compliment a tank so nicely. I can just see tanks dancing to 'Can't touch this'.

Scrappers - undecided.
Fire/fire is the one thing I have not tried, however, I think it looks like a good set (especially the fire armor).
I was really hoping scrappers might get either the electric or ninjutsu secondary.

Out of all of this, I will be rolling a psy/psy blaster, a earth/fire dominator (heh), and a claws/fire scrapper. And I look forward to the new cold/ice defenders joining me on team.

Can't wait to find out when they next port more powers over down the track!

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srsly how can you do that ? The dom psy assualt?

So if I look at it - dart,blast,scream,lance all would be primary blast sets - that means

Mind Probe, subdue, OMG drain psyche, and shockwave - missing 4 so I am betting they get a build up - you would probably move scramble thoughts and or will dom to secondary - so most likely an aim power on the primary too? -- oh man...scary...if on the money.

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Just please wait and try it out in Beta. I've been running around in our playtests as a Psi blaster and well, it's ok. Thanks for keeping things on an even keel.

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My question to this is, in all the running around did you seriously try any PvP? And how badly did the villains get owned?

When do you think this is be on the Test Sever? I hope it is soon hehhe.