Discussion: Hollows Zone Gameplay Makeover
By
Aidalyn,
Posted on: 2008-03-19 09:38 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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I'm still hoping that the Devs change this system. Best solution I can think of (and I'll probably post this in Suggestion Forum): Have the first level-5 contact give you a choice of two missions -- visiting Wincott at the Hollows, or visiting the detective in Kings Row.
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Considering this is the way all the other contacts do it, it makes sense. I tend to skip every single "Talk to the Security Chief" mission, especially for Boomtown (but not for Steel Canyon, since I'm there so often anyway).
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I actually realized another problem with the Contact-to-Wincott "mission" ... when you talk to Wincott and complete the mission, there's very little indication that you actually did complete it. If you're observant, you'll see the xp award and the mission disappear from your list ... but most new players don't know to watch out for that.
And there's certainly no "go back to the level-5 contact" hanging in your Nav window.
On the other hand, when you're sent to a Security Chief and you finish that mission, you do get a "go back to the contact" in the Nav window.
Anyway ... here's the thread on Suggestion for Mission to Hollows vs Kings Row
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On the other hand, when you're sent to a Security Chief and you finish that mission, you do get a "go back to the contact" in the Nav window.
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Oh, wait. I think I got that wrong in my post. You get a "go back to contact" message on the other ones only after the hunt mission. Wincott doesn't count because the initial mission is really a roundabout contact introduction disguised as a mission.
Is there anything else like that in the game? I can't recall...
New players are herded by their first level-5 contact to go visit the Hollows. And if they went through the tutorial, they are "indoctrinated" to pick up the missions every time they are offered one. It's not obvious that you can skip Hollows content.
People who can't read probably aren't going to do well in this game no matter what you do.
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Ever since the Trolls kidnapped my son, Sam, four years ago, I've been dedicated to rooting them out of the Hollows. But, let's face it: I need ever bit of help I can get. If you would like to help me, I'd be grateful.
Otherwise, you can keep pursuing leads with your current contacts. I'll still be here if you decide the fight for the Hollows is something you want to be a part of.
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Note the second paragraph, which has been there since the Contact went live.
For the record, I would delete every mission of the form "go talk to X about zone Y" and replace them with emails from signature heroes or Detectives sent when the character trains the appropriate level. That said, anyone who seriously believes the Hollows is problematic because new players are too stupid to see they don't have to do it has a patronizingly low opinion.
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"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Otherwise, you can keep pursuing leads with your current contacts. I'll still be here if you decide the fight for the Hollows is something you want to be a part of.
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Oh, I know that's there. Many veterans know that's there. New players probably read it, but most will still click on Wincott's missions because they think that's what they _should_ do. There's no other reminder that they can "keep pursuing leads with your current contacts." That greeting text shows up once.
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That said, anyone who seriously believes the Hollows is problematic because new players are too stupid to see they don't have to do it has a patronizingly low opinion.
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I didn't say new players are stupid.
War Witch (and perhaps, the rest of the Dev team) is interested in streamlining the way that content goes to new players -- their efforts in streamlining the Hollows is a good sign of that. All I'm suggesting is that they look into another suggestion for streamlining low-level content.
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On the other hand, when you're sent to a Security Chief and you finish that mission, you do get a "go back to the contact" in the Nav window.
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Oh, wait. I think I got that wrong in my post. You get a "go back to contact" message on the other ones only after the hunt mission. Wincott doesn't count because the initial mission is really a roundabout contact introduction disguised as a mission.
Is there anything else like that in the game? I can't recall...
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Your recollections are accurate -- the "talk to Security Chief" missions really are just "delayed" hunt missions; which is why you get the "go back to contact" message.
The "Talk to Wincott" mission is the only "roundabout contact introduction" I know of. It's probably a special code they put into place when they made the Hollows zone. I think it's about time they updated that code to reflect the non-Hollows progression.
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On the other hand, when you're sent to a Security Chief and you finish that mission, you do get a "go back to the contact" in the Nav window.
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Oh, wait. I think I got that wrong in my post. You get a "go back to contact" message on the other ones only after the hunt mission. Wincott doesn't count because the initial mission is really a roundabout contact introduction disguised as a mission.
Is there anything else like that in the game? I can't recall...
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Jim Tremblor, Stephanie Peebles, and Gordon Bower. I was actually faintly surprised that Levantera doesn't get one.
Can't help having a good/bad feeling about this. The zone WILL be a lot friendlier, but I liked having 1 zone where you had to make crazy runs across the zone past dozens of purples to get to your mission.
To me, Hollows was fun because it was so dangerous (and because as a < 10 zone there was no debt so death didn't matter much). I could reach any mission in the zone without using travel powers, but boy if you messed up you were dead fast.
I guess I won't be suiciding anymore since they said they are adding Field Hospital now too. That was how I used to get back to Atlas to sell or get back accross the zone from a remote mission. Obviously this isn't how they wanted us using death in the game anyway - as free instant transport.
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
I'm delighted with the Hollows changes. Good work, I'm sure.
But I personally think Dark Astoria, Boomtown and Perez Park are in more dire need. I hope War Witch will put those on her "to-do" list.
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Speaking of Eastgate Bay and the Seaview project, am I the only one who's bothered by the fact that you can't see the Atlantic Ocean from the far east side of the Hollows?
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If you look at th map the Hollows doesn't quite reach the coastline but it is close. The Red River opens into the bay where Striga and Peregrine are shortly after it goes past the Hollows War Wall. Chances are the lab was built somewhat inland from the coast so it'd be inside the war wall.
Sirens Call is another zone that coralax would fit since it is right on the bay and partially outside the war wall on the coastline side.
What about when a contact from outside of the Hollows sends a level 7 Hero to the Hollows to find some Jewel or something? Will their mission have a chance to be deep in high level territory ? I've had problems like that before. Not all the problems come from the Contacts in the Hollows themselves.
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Who are Legacy Chain? I don't play CoV much LOL
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Kind of a cross between Archery Blasters & various Controller types. They are kind of like a mystical form of longbow.
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I've wondered about them being mystical. They give technology drops.
Their dress mimics a pseudo-celestial Middle Ages Knighthood. Its like a secret society playing dress up. Just like their dress pretends to be mystical, I've wondered if their powers are technological diguised to seem mystical. Hence the technology drops.
They also seem to be anti-magic or anti-dark magic at least, too. All the more reason their powers are actually technology based despite how they appear.
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New players are herded by their first level-5 contact to go visit the Hollows. And if they went through the tutorial, they are "indoctrinated" to pick up the missions every time they are offered one. It's not obvious that you can skip Hollows content.
People who can't read probably aren't going to do well in this game no matter what you do.
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Ever since the Trolls kidnapped my son, Sam, four years ago, I've been dedicated to rooting them out of the Hollows. But, let's face it: I need ever bit of help I can get. If you would like to help me, I'd be grateful.
Otherwise, you can keep pursuing leads with your current contacts. I'll still be here if you decide the fight for the Hollows is something you want to be a part of.
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Note the second paragraph, which has been there since the Contact went live.
For the record, I would delete every mission of the form "go talk to X about zone Y" and replace them with emails from signature heroes or Detectives sent when the character trains the appropriate level. That said, anyone who seriously believes the Hollows is problematic because new players are too stupid to see they don't have to do it has a patronizingly low opinion.
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Note also that new players don't know about the temp travel powers available from radio Missions, especially not if they haven't even been to KR yet. It's at least one time through for a first time player that they learn about the jumpjet, etc. This means that having travelled all the way to the Hollows, they're likely to start doing the arcs there because, well, they're there. If I get sent to the Hollows from a KR or Galaxy contact, I generally do the Wincott Arc just because it's usually close, and I can sometimes get a level from the hunt missions and double door mission. This is even if I don't plan on staying in the Hollows. I'll now be more likely to stay there, doing radio missions only for the jet pack, through my teens.
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I've wondered about them being mystical. They give technology drops.
Their dress mimics a pseudo-celestial Middle Ages Knighthood. Its like a secret society playing dress up. Just like their dress pretends to be mystical, I've wondered if their powers are technological diguised to seem mystical. Hence the technology drops.
They also seem to be anti-magic or anti-dark magic at least, too. All the more reason their powers are actually technology based despite how they appear.
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LMAO, the Legacy Chain are LARPers!?!?
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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That said, anyone who seriously believes the Hollows is problematic because new players are too stupid to see they don't have to do it has a patronizingly low opinion.
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I for one completely missed that "disclaimer" in Wincott's speech my first time through the game. I thought I was stuck with him, and after my umpteenth faceplant, I was close to giving up on the game completely. Luckily, after hearing me whine about it on another message board, a more experienced player took pity on me and explained my options. 
I don't know how typical my experience is, but I'm guessing the devs wouldn't be bothering unless they viewed it as a significant problem. I dunno how specific their data tracking is... can they tell when someone signs up for a trial account, gets as far as the Hollows, and then quits?
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For the record, I would delete every mission of the form "go talk to X about zone Y" and replace them with emails from signature heroes or Detectives sent when the character trains the appropriate level.
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I like that idea. There's no reason (well, outside of programming time 
) that the existing email system couldn't be used for both player-to-player emails and signature hero/contact-to-player emails from time to time.
For example, wouldn't it be cool to get an email from Statesman shortly after training up to level 40 asking me to go investigate what's going on in the Shadow Shard?
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the new Hollows. The Hollows used to be an area that caused me no end of frustration as it generally took two tries (at least!) to successfully make the long run to a mission door. I've long since figured out what I need to do to avoid the swarms of bad guys (most of the time anyway!) but why put new players through that? Frustrated players often become former players and that does no one here any good...
-Buxley
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Sounds like an awesome makeover.
I hope the Family and Warrior "dealers" will still be in the zone dealing with the lower villain groups (Trolls and Outcasts respectively). I always found it a great continuity when you've done the arcs up to 20 and then revisit the Hollows and realize why they are there [doing deals for 'dyne and artifacts.]
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"Chew Electric Death, Snarling Cur!"
While I know this makeover will ease a lot of frustration, especially amongst newbs, it also makes me a little sad. My first character or 2 "grew up" in the hollows on PuGs. The Hollows was where I learned (sometimes the hard way) about aggro range, breaking aggro, etc.
It made recall Friend and Group invis great early team powers. It was the basis for the need for "Taxi-bots" and in the days before Bases, Vet TPs, O-Zone tps and WW tps, it made you appreciate the highbies who would broadcast offers of TPs to the AP gate...
I only see one drawback to this sweet revamp:
Where will I send my level 5s to practice their Mad Tiptoeing Skilz?
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I only see one drawback to this sweet revamp:
Where will I send my level 5s to practice their Mad Tiptoeing Skilz?
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Icon.
or just wait til 7 and do Perez.
Can you get every badge and plaque in PP without a travel power or stealth at level 7? Try it!
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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It's kind of stupid that all these changes were at least partially motivated because players were supposedly forced to go to the Hollows to get missions when the devs know full well that all a player has to do is drop the mission from the contact that sends them there if they want to avoid the zone. Seems like they are determined to make this game so easy that it can be played by a retarded monkey.
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Yep. All the player has to do is drop the mission. For that matter, you don't even -have- to drop the mission. All you have to do to complete the mission is visit Wincott and bam, free expees. Then you can go about your normal missiony schedule.
Trick is,
New players don't know that.
You can say all you like about liking a challenge to hone your skills, but a new player, and new subs is kindof important to maintaining a decent size base, is going to run into the hollows like a brick wall and sometimes get discouraged, or at least frustrated. Steeply rising difficulty curve bad. The challenge is still -there-, it's just localized, so you go looking for it, instead of having it dumped on you with hunt missions the instant you walk in the zone.
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QFT! I've been saying that again and again. Glad to see someone else is able to enunciate that point.
New players are herded by their first level-5 contact to go visit the Hollows. And if they went through the tutorial, they are "indoctrinated" to pick up the missions every time they are offered one. It's not obvious that you can skip Hollows content.
I'm still hoping that the Devs change this system. Best solution I can think of (and I'll probably post this in Suggestion Forum): Have the first level-5 contact give you a choice of two missions -- visiting Wincott at the Hollows, or visiting the detective in Kings Row.
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That's....a really good idea, actually. I suggest throwing up a thread on this in the suggestions forum, if it hasn't been done already. Something to point new players to the radio/detective system is a great idea to guide people into that part of the game.
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I kind of like the Hollows, but can see the benefits of most of these changes.
My one, major, huge gripe is the addition of the Vahzilok. They are my least favorite of the villain groups, and in fact I often bypass contacts that give Vahzilok missions. I used to always start in Atlas so I wouldn't have to face the pukers in Galaxy; then they stuck them in Atlas too.
For some reason, CoH as decided everybody *must* fight Vahzilok in every single zone. Why?
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I only see one drawback to this sweet revamp:
Where will I send my level 5s to practice their Mad Tiptoeing Skilz?
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Icon.
or just wait til 7 and do Perez.
Can you get every badge and plaque in PP without a travel power or stealth at level 7? Try it!
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Make it level 10. Start at 0 debt, not allowed to earn XP except from the badges themselves. He who finishes with the moxt XP gained and the least debt, wins. ^_^
What come on Devs what about us old timers no temp travel powers; debt starting at level 5 I mean running around the Hollows at debt cap because you got a mission on the other side of the zone 1 mile away and no way to clear it other than to suffer threw it.
I mean back in the old days we use have to go up hill in the snow to and from school
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It's kind of stupid that all these changes were at least partially motivated because players were supposedly forced to go to the Hollows to get missions when the devs know full well that all a player has to do is drop the mission from the contact that sends them there if they want to avoid the zone. Seems like they are determined to make this game so easy that it can be played by a retarded monkey.
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Yep. All the player has to do is drop the mission. For that matter, you don't even -have- to drop the mission. All you have to do to complete the mission is visit Wincott and bam, free expees. Then you can go about your normal missiony schedule.
Trick is,
New players don't know that.
You can say all you like about liking a challenge to hone your skills, but a new player, and new subs is kindof important to maintaining a decent size base, is going to run into the hollows like a brick wall and sometimes get discouraged, or at least frustrated. Steeply rising difficulty curve bad. The challenge is still -there-, it's just localized, so you go looking for it, instead of having it dumped on you with hunt missions the instant you walk in the zone.
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QFT! I've been saying that again and again. Glad to see someone else is able to enunciate that point.
New players are herded by their first level-5 contact to go visit the Hollows. And if they went through the tutorial, they are "indoctrinated" to pick up the missions every time they are offered one. It's not obvious that you can skip Hollows content.
I'm still hoping that the Devs change this system. Best solution I can think of (and I'll probably post this in Suggestion Forum): Have the first level-5 contact give you a choice of two missions -- visiting Wincott at the Hollows, or visiting the detective in Kings Row.
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That's....a really good idea, actually. I suggest throwing up a thread on this in the suggestions forum, if it hasn't been done already. Something to point new players to the radio/detective system is a great idea to guide people into that part of the game.
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Here you go: CoH: Mission to Hollows vs Kings Row
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I'm still hoping that the Devs change this system. Best solution I can think of (and I'll probably post this in Suggestion Forum): Have the first level-5 contact give you a choice of two missions -- visiting Wincott at the Hollows, or visiting the detective in Kings Row.
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Considering this is the way all the other contacts do it, it makes sense. I tend to skip every single "Talk to the Security Chief" mission, especially for Boomtown (but not for Steel Canyon, since I'm there so often anyway).