Discussion: Hollows Zone Gameplay Makeover
By
Aidalyn,
Posted on: 2008-03-19 09:38 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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Maybe Boomtown could just be made a villain zone, seeing as you heroes don't use it.
[/ QUOTE ]Will you people stop messing with my zones?!
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Maybe Boomtown could just be made a villain zone, seeing as you heroes don't use it.
[/ QUOTE ]Will you people stop messing with my zones?!
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It's okay. Even if the Villains got it, there'd still be no one in it.
Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
Repurposed
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Those all sound like really great changes to the Hollows. Now how about setting War Witch loose on the Shadow Shard? The huge villain population in the Shard is entirely too static, too rooted in place. The Shard has such enormous unrealized potential.
How about:
- a few wandering space "dragons"
- a few wandering rikti spacecraft
- a 50-hero Hamidon-raid-level arch-villain
- hollow out some asteroids for us to explore
- more complicated "one-off" missions
- an accolade power earned by completing the four Shard TFs
- access to the Shard for CoV (co-op mode like the RWZ?)
- actually place the Ski Chalet and Pocket D somewhere in the Shard
- black holes, small meteors, vision-obscuring nebulae
- a wisp city
- random rare rularuu raid on FBZ
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I'd add one more thing to your list...a technician that can provide you with official FBZ flight packs...but they only work in the shard.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
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wow, war witch sounds like you did an awesome job ! everything little thing she corrected was perfect and was needed : )
RED CAP DAGGERS: if you want them red side on infinity, send a pm i have the mission to get them for dual blades.
One of the things I liked about the original hollows was having huge groups of +X enemies, contacts with inspiration stores, and an AoE heavy character. You could level up extremely fast just going inspiration god-mode and blowing up spawns over and over again.
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Those all sound like really great changes to the Hollows. Now how about setting War Witch loose on the Shadow Shard? The huge villain population in the Shard is entirely too static, too rooted in place. The Shard has such enormous unrealized potential.
How about:
- a few wandering space "dragons"
- a few wandering rikti spacecraft
- a 50-hero Hamidon-raid-level arch-villain
- hollow out some asteroids for us to explore
- more complicated "one-off" missions
- an accolade power earned by completing the four Shard TFs
- access to the Shard for CoV (co-op mode like the RWZ?)
- actually place the Ski Chalet and Pocket D somewhere in the Shard
- black holes, small meteors, vision-obscuring nebulae
- a wisp city
- random rare rularuu raid on FBZ
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I'd add one more thing to your list...a technician that can provide you with official FBZ flight packs...but they only work in the shard.
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That can be the accolade for completing all the TFs. :P
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
I just can't see the Coralax appearing Heroside, especially not in the Hollows of all places. I would've expected them to appear near the occean in Talos or Independence Port first not in a river in the Hollows.
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Since the backstory of the Hollows is that is sort of a "war zone" where the villains have taken over, and the heroes are only now just beginning to attempt to take it back, I wonder if any thought was put into having at least some designated areas of the zone spawn "hot spots" like Sirens does, with lots of heroes fighting lots of villains.
One thing about Sirens hotspots: if you want to allow players to experience large fights, but are afraid that the spawn will just wipe out most solo players and teams that come across it, making a giant villain spawn and then having it aggro a giant hero NPC spawn allows players to jump in and "take on" a very large group, while only drawing some of the actual aggro. In a sense, Sirens hotspots are self-scaling fights that can be appropriate to any team of almost any size.
When I read the dev diary, it seems that one aspect of the zone that you're trying to preserve is the "danger-factor" while balancing that against the spawns being at least credibly interesting and entertaining to fight. That can be difficult when the participants are low level players: there is a lot of variability in player skill and performance in those levels. This seems to be a great way to do that, and to give new players a "playground" that throws them into combat that, if sometimes lethal, is at least entertainingly lethal (I have to say, whenever I get bored, I take one of my scrappers for a spin in Sirens and try to flip the zone: fighting while surrounded by fifty other combattants tends to be more fun than killing mission boss #23,571).
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I just can't see the Coralax appearing Heroside, especially not in the Hollows of all places. I would've expected them to appear near the occean in Talos or Independence Port first not in a river in the Hollows.
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As Neutron Star mentioned, one of the Hollows plaques describes the Seaview Project:
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This building once housed the lab of Dr. Calvin Stewart, who pioneered Eastgate Bay's Seaview project. Since the Hollowing, Dr. Stewart has been forced to abandon the lab, and communication with the Seaview project has been erratic. Very little is known by the public about the scientists' activities in Eastgate Bay.
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And another hint is from the Seaview project scientists in a Striga mission from Stephanie Peebles:
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Stop the Council attack
Briefing
I've got a fish story for you, and it's a beaut. Seems some researchers over in Eastgate Bay just pulled into port. Say they were attacked by some sort of 'fish monsters,' and they barely escaped with their lives! They even say they've got one of the creatures on ice down in their hold.
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Also, one of the plaques inside MAGI offices behind Azuria mentions something related if I remember correctly.
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"Chew Electric Death, Snarling Cur!"
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For the record, the Greasy Grass Rules:
(Developed after a great many "learning" experiances)
<ul type="square">[*]Never run the gulch without two awakens, one for you, and one for the other guy.[*]Never stop for more than 5 seconds without locating two escape paths.[*]Never aggro a mob without locating the OTHER mobs in the area, particularly the ones chasing another team towards you.[*]When it goes south, and it will, run. Don't stop, don't hold up on a hilltop Reno, because I'm not going to stop and look for you. I may come back after I clear the entire area, but I will not stop.[*]Remember, your always running BETWEEN two mobs, if you only see one of them, your probably running towards the other one. [*]Igs are bad, very bad.[/list]
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Wow. In June of 06 when I first started playing CoH I wandered in the Hollows for the first time. I joined up with a team doing something they called a "Frostfire Run." Before we started on our long trek across the zone to the mission door the leader gave us all almost this exact same speech.
I memorized those rules, and because of them I've seldom had any problems playing in the Hollows. For me the problem wasn't that the Hollows was too hard, it was that it was boring. The first character I brought into the hollows was my AR/Dev/No Travel Power, and this was before Raptor Packs. Before outleveling the zone I had learned all of the routes and how to easily travel around without aggroing anyone.
The problem with the Hollows currently is that (like a lot of things in this game) it's too binary. You either don't understand the rules and so you get too much aggro and die, or you learn the rules and you're able to travel the entire zone without ever aggroing anyone - boring.
After reading War Witch's diary though I wonder if the Hollows isn't going to become to easy. I sure hope not.
I think the Hollows changes look good!
BUT . . .
I liked the Hollows before.
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Sure, my alts have spent more time in KR in the last year, to get the radio mishes, and the first couple of temp travel powers.
But many of my alts in the past, have dived into the Hollows at lvl 5 or 6, and not come out again till around lvl 17 or so; and that can happen really quickly there.
FF is one of my favorite mishes in the game, mega-XP, and the only mish with all those lovely ice patches to play on!
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But I am looking forward to these coming changes!
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It's kind of stupid that all these changes were at least partially motivated because players were supposedly forced to go to the Hollows to get missions when the devs know full well that all a player has to do is drop the mission from the contact that sends them there if they want to avoid the zone. Seems like they are determined to make this game so easy that it can be played by a retarded monkey.
Speaking of Eastgate Bay and the Seaview project, am I the only one who's bothered by the fact that you can't see the Atlantic Ocean from the far east side of the Hollows?
No, you're not the only who's bothered by it.
But we have bigger fish to fry. No pun intended.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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It's kind of stupid that all these changes were at least partially motivated because players were supposedly forced to go to the Hollows to get missions when the devs know full well that all a player has to do is drop the mission from the contact that sends them there if they want to avoid the zone. Seems like they are determined to make this game so easy that it can be played by a retarded monkey.
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That could have easily been the reason the Devs decided to change The Hollows- because so many people were dropping the intial meet and great to Wincott.
I personally always did Wincott but no one following because I didn't want to miss the Spelunker mission.
And really it's about time they did something about the zone- it shouldn't be messed up forever, with it beinga hazard zone- in time it would get revitalized.
I like it- but a part of me will miss the old Hollows......
Theres nothing like running 2 miles across the zone only to die 10 ft from the mission door with no wakies on you.
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
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It's kind of stupid that all these changes were at least partially motivated because players were supposedly forced to go to the Hollows to get missions when the devs know full well that all a player has to do is drop the mission from the contact that sends them there if they want to avoid the zone. Seems like they are determined to make this game so easy that it can be played by a retarded monkey.
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No one should have any problem with those run to make a contact missions. I would say they are there simply to make sure that players, especially new players, at least are exposed to the fact that there is some content over here to consider.
We don't think that they are wanting to make us change our difficulty, just because they made the mish that sends us to talk to the FeildAnalyst / Fortunata...... Do we?
No. Players, especially new players are being alerted that options are there, by being sent on these mishes.
If you already know, run the contact, collect the xp, and go on with whatever you choose to do next.
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Wow. Love the changes, especially the minor Igneous one. Having the visible spawns be the ones safe to go after would have helped my Claws/SR Scrapper's "Defeat 10 Igneous" mission so much. As would have the hospital in the zone.
Aaron Fletcher: *staggers back to the contact* "Dammit, why Igneous? Why couldn't I fight, I dunno....Sendimentaries or something?"
Talshak: "Good job. Defeating that number of Igneous will go a ways towards controlling their numbers."
Aaron Fletcher: "Yes. Because that's what we need to do. Kill them, one at a time, every %$#@ing 15 minutes! ...hope you get killed by a falling rock, you [censored]."
As for the lessons of aggro control the Hollows taught, sure I learned them. It was even fun to lead my teammates through Eastgate Heights by taking the "drunken squirrel" path. I still think the new version sounds much more fun! 
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Players, especially new players are being alerted that options are there, by being sent on these mishes.
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I'm not so sure. Remember, the tutorial contacts are strictly sequential -- one contact isn't opened until the previous contact is finished. There's very little warning between the tutorial and Wincott that this stops being the case.
This is a broader problem than the Hollows, though.
When I read the posts complaining about the issue 12 content info tidbits from WW this came to my mind.
I want a ball
I want a party
Pink macaroons and a million balloons
And performing baboons and ...
Give it to me
Rrhh rhhh
Now!
I want the world
I want the whole world
I want to lock it all up in my pocket
It's my bar of chocolate
Give it to me
Now!
I want today
I want tomorrow
I want to wear 'em like braids in my hair
And I don't want to share 'em
I want a party with room fulls of laughter
Ten thousand tons of ice cream
And if I don't get the things I am after
I'm going to scream!
I want the works
I want the whole works
Presents and prizes and sweets and surprises
Of all shapes and sizes
And now
Don't care how
I want it now
Don't care how
I want it now
Guys, take your OCD meds and be patient. All good things come to those who wait.
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It's kind of stupid that all these changes were at least partially motivated because players were supposedly forced to go to the Hollows to get missions when the devs know full well that all a player has to do is drop the mission from the contact that sends them there if they want to avoid the zone. Seems like they are determined to make this game so easy that it can be played by a retarded monkey.
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Yep. All the player has to do is drop the mission. For that matter, you don't even -have- to drop the mission. All you have to do to complete the mission is visit Wincott and bam, free expees. Then you can go about your normal missiony schedule.
Trick is,
New players don't know that.
You can say all you like about liking a challenge to hone your skills, but a new player, and new subs is kindof important to maintaining a decent size base, is going to run into the hollows like a brick wall and sometimes get discouraged, or at least frustrated. Steeply rising difficulty curve bad. The challenge is still -there-, it's just localized, so you go looking for it, instead of having it dumped on you with hunt missions the instant you walk in the zone.
Jason Heavensrun
Swift : Freedom Server
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com/CheckmateStudios
Check out my first Architect Arc, "Bring Up the Sun", arc #339507, and let me know what you think!
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<ul type="square"> [*]Igs are bad, very bad.[/list]
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Come on: an enemy AT with slow and immobilize resistance on Warwolf levels and the ability to perma knock you down (yes, even scrappers who, like regens, don't get their mez resistance until lvl 16) and travel in packs of 10 unless they're rolling with 2 or 3 bosses that can perma hold you if they're 2 levels or more over you....
It's a challenge!
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Don't forget that they're HOLD resistant, too.
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<ul type="square"> [*]Igs are bad, very bad.[/list]
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Come on: an enemy AT with slow and immobilize resistance on Warwolf levels and the ability to perma knock you down (yes, even scrappers who, like regens, don't get their mez resistance until lvl 16) and travel in packs of 10 unless they're rolling with 2 or 3 bosses that can perma hold you if they're 2 levels or more over you....
It's a challenge!
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Don't forget that they're HOLD resistant, too.
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Yeah well... the only thing that registers higher on my StupidOmeter than this is low level enemies that drain endurance. Like level 15 characters don't have enough end problems.
I've often wished that the CoH Dev team would learn the difference between challenging and just friggin annoying. Perhaps the new Hollows zone will show us that they have learned this lesson. Personally I hope that's what happens.
Lately I've seen the game become easier and easier, and this isn't good because easy is boring. Then I run into the more challenging parts, and often those parts (like Task Forces) aren't challenging at all, they're more accurately described as frustrating or annoying.
So I hope the Hollows becomes easier in the newbie areas but that some areas remain difficult or are made even more difficult than before. That would allow everyone to get what they want. The newbs get a good zone to play in that isn't frustrating, but those who want it will also have a challenging area where they can enjoy honing their skills.
If War Witch can do that with the Hollows then that really will be a massive improvement.
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It's kind of stupid that all these changes were at least partially motivated because players were supposedly forced to go to the Hollows to get missions when the devs know full well that all a player has to do is drop the mission from the contact that sends them there if they want to avoid the zone. Seems like they are determined to make this game so easy that it can be played by a retarded monkey.
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Yep. All the player has to do is drop the mission. For that matter, you don't even -have- to drop the mission. All you have to do to complete the mission is visit Wincott and bam, free expees. Then you can go about your normal missiony schedule.
Trick is,
New players don't know that.
You can say all you like about liking a challenge to hone your skills, but a new player, and new subs is kindof important to maintaining a decent size base, is going to run into the hollows like a brick wall and sometimes get discouraged, or at least frustrated. Steeply rising difficulty curve bad. The challenge is still -there-, it's just localized, so you go looking for it, instead of having it dumped on you with hunt missions the instant you walk in the zone.
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QFT! I've been saying that again and again. Glad to see someone else is able to enunciate that point.
New players are herded by their first level-5 contact to go visit the Hollows. And if they went through the tutorial, they are "indoctrinated" to pick up the missions every time they are offered one. It's not obvious that you can skip Hollows content.
I'm still hoping that the Devs change this system. Best solution I can think of (and I'll probably post this in Suggestion Forum): Have the first level-5 contact give you a choice of two missions -- visiting Wincott at the Hollows, or visiting the detective in Kings Row.
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That's not what we *really* want because then, just like the KR Safeguard, we wouldn't be able to Flahsback to Meg's mission to pick it up again. We want a temp travel power to be in an *arc mission* so that we can replenish it just like villains can replenish theirs. (Another reason why the Devs hate Heroes!)
Wincott's last mission should give a temp travel power, "Thanks for all you've done for me! If you're going to be helping out Flux or venture deeper into the Hollows, you may want some help to get over the Gulch. I've managed to requisition a Jet Pack for you from the PPD."
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Agreed. It doesn't have to be Wincott ... but having someone give us an equivalent to the Goldbricker's Jet Pack would really help. Having Meg give it out might be a better solution ... she might have better resources than poor ol' Wincott.
i remember running with a 8 man ff defender squad, at lvl 6 we herded the hollows of all the +5 mobs around, was very very amusing and we drew some crowds to watch us.
"bubble up, ok all split up, agro and meet back here..."
*edit* and that was the only time i enjoyed the hollows