Discussion: Changes to Task/Strike Force Missions
By
Acid_Reign,
Posted on: 2008-02-14 15:00 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
While I am somewhat pleased with this change in that it will prevent softloading Task Forces, I ask two things:
i)Take a pair of scissors to the Freedom Phalanx Task Forces (especially Positron and Synapse) and the Shard Task Forces (especially Quarterfield and Faathim) and cut them by about 4-5 missions at least, more for the Shard missions.
ii)Make the mobs inside the missions spawn at the average, and not high, level for the task force so that pickup groups at least have a hope of advancing through them.
Lastly, consider merging the two markets. As much as I've made tons and tons of infamy off the villain market, it's high time for this to happen folks.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
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2. Reduce the minimum number of players required for a TF or SF to a maximum of six. Only exception: STF and LRSF, since they are meant to be endgame challenges and "hardcore".
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Just to quickly touch on this (since I'm on the Training Room with the Wedding Event, but reading here too) - most Task Forces and Strike Forces have a requirement of 4. I was looking over documentation on the list of SF/TF.
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There are 11 TFs that require more than four players to start. The only SF that requires more than four is the RSF. Lady Grey, a co-op TF, requires 8 players. Of the hero TFs, the only ones that require 4 or less to start are Positron, Synapse, and Numina, not including the Ouroborus pseudo-TFs. I would recommend lowering the minimums for most hero TFs if you do not intend to roll back this change.
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They won't. They'll get one and log out to reset it.
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Is that true? So you can farm a mission, log out, and when you get back in it will reset?
-- Currently Playing --
Dexter Labrynth (SS/FA Brute)
Former member of Tribute and Victory Reborn
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2. Reduce the minimum number of players required for a TF or SF to a maximum of six. Only exception: STF and LRSF, since they are meant to be endgame challenges and "hardcore".
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Just to quickly touch on this (since I'm on the Training Room with the Wedding Event, but reading here too) - most Task Forces and Strike Forces have a requirement of 4. I was looking over documentation on the list of SF/TF.
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I think people are ok with 4, it's the exceptions that people are concerned about. There's a few 8 minimums in there that often lose a person or two by the end that are going to be VERY difficult now.
Personally, I assumed this was mostly for tricks like having a Stalker spawn an entire mission and then charging through it with the full team. Mostly seen in the Villain respec trial to reduce the vines. Either way, understandable change, but there are few TF/SF out there that really have needed some attention, even before the change.
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2. Reduce the minimum number of players required for a TF or SF to a maximum of six. Only exception: STF and LRSF, since they are meant to be endgame challenges and "hardcore".
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Just to quickly touch on this (since I'm on the Training Room with the Wedding Event, but reading here too) - most Task Forces and Strike Forces have a requirement of 4. I was looking over documentation on the list of SF/TF.
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BS, LH.
let's walk through this together.
Posi: 3.
Synapse: 4.
Sis: 5.
Cit: 6.
Manti: 7.
Numina: 4.
Q: 8.
Sara: 8.
Augustine: 8.
Faathim: 8.
STF: 8.
LRSF: 8.
Cap, mantis, renault, mistral: all 4.
LGTF: 8.
The average is higher than 4.
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You're missing Hess and Moonfire, both 6.
As far as I can tell, there are 7 out of 20 TFs/SFs that require 4 people or less.
Here's a novel idea (and reductionist summarization of my earlier wall of text): instead of messing with stuff, leave it how it was and let players decide for themselves whether they want to team or solo. If the Cap SF is still of major concern, as Katie TFs were, evaluate possible changes to it just like the changes made to Katie TFs. Don't implement sweeping restrictions in gameplay across the entire board of Task Forces.
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Here's a novel idea (and reductionist summarization of my earlier wall of text): instead of messing with stuff, leave it how it was and let players decide for themselves whether they want to team or solo. If the Cap SF is still of major concern, as Katie TFs were, evaluate possible changes to it just like the changes made to Katie TFs. Don't implement sweeping restrictions in gameplay across the entire board of Task Forces.
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QFT, excellent idea.
Thanks, NC Soft, for closing my favorite game ever without warning and with plenty of life still left in it, and thus relieving me of the burden of EVER wanting to buy, try or even hear about another game from your company. Will my decision make a dent, or persuade them in anyway, shape or form? Nope, obviously not. Don't care. NC Soft is dead to me. ~ PsyFox
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They won't. They'll get one and log out to reset it.
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Is that true? So you can farm a mission, log out, and when you get back in it will reset?
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Yes.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
<QR>
My first thought on reading this change was: who decided this was a good idea? I'm fully aware that Positron doesn't like the idea of everyone rushing through missions just to get to the end, but this change for SFs / TFs seems extremely short-sighted. Hell, the fact it missed patch notes would indicate that this change hadn't been widely discussed or even could be an old solution that someone fixed in without consulting others first.
First off, TFs have worked this previous way for 4 years. As a casual player, I've enjoyed the fact that I can possibly solo some TFs if my team drops out, or if a few members exit then the overall team still has a chance to complete the TF. This won't happen under this new system.
Secondly, as noted by others, this doesn't stop RMTers from earning inf. If anything, it's started a bonanza for RMT farmers who get a TF going and 'underman' the TF in order to increase XP and loot rewards. (I don't for a minute think Shard TFs are going to be the favoured targets - more likely any TF with 4 - 6 player requirements.) Seriously, you aren't going to reduce demand for external RMT services by reducing the supply of TF / SF recipes while at the same time giving farmers increased inf earning options. That's just going to send CH prices through the roof and send players who want the recipes but can't meet market prices through gameplay off to RMT sites to buy inf.
Thirdly, if you are going to stick with this change, all TFs / SFs need to be reconsidered. This change is truly the simple option that ends up requiring more work to get right (unless there is another change coming down the pipe that will make this more palatable).
Finally, this change discourages players from even starting a TF / SF at minimum team sizes. I've seen teams implode during normal TF runs due to a team wipe and people leave, but all it requires is a mission reset and the rest of the TF team can continue. Not anymore. If anything I could see the potential to grief a TF / SF in joining one, leading the team into a wipe and then complaining loudly about it and quitting. If 2 people leave a TF that requires 8 people, that's probably enough for most players to quit the TF themselves.
All in all, roll this change back. It's a stupid, short-sighted change that hurts casual play, benefits external RMTers and dedicated farmers and actively discourages players from attempting content that last week they would have at least given a try.
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2. Reduce the minimum number of players required for a TF or SF to a maximum of six. Only exception: STF and LRSF, since they are meant to be endgame challenges and "hardcore".
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Just to quickly touch on this (since I'm on the Training Room with the Wedding Event, but reading here too) - most Task Forces and Strike Forces have a requirement of 4. I was looking over documentation on the list of SF/TF.
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There's five offhand I can name that require 8 to start.
Quarterfield, Moore, Augustine, Faathim, and the Cavern of Transcendence (is that still considered a Trial or did it get moved to TF? Can't remember).
It's a shame I didn't get Moore, Augustine, and Faathim done prior to this so I could get the souvies. Now, they'll never get done. C'est la vie. 
For the record, this is a really bad change. If it's going to stay, then starting numbers really need to be revamped.
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They won't. They'll get one and log out to reset it.
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Is that true? So you can farm a mission, log out, and when you get back in it will reset?
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Yes. And with the new changes it will be set for max TF size. So spawn that 8 person map repeatedly without bothering with anyone to pad for you.
"Mastermind Pets operate...differently, and aren't as easily fixed. Especially the Bruiser. I want to take him out behind the woodshed and pull an "old yeller" on him at times." - Castle
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They won't. They'll get one and log out to reset it.
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Is that true? So you can farm a mission, log out, and when you get back in it will reset?
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Yes. You can use it to fix TF missions when you have things like the still-unfixed "blinkie spawns in the wall" or the "scientist from portal corp learns to phase shift through the walls and vanishes"
Actually it is the ONLY way to fix those other than abandoning the TF.
You know, TFs might be more fun to play if they weren't buggy so much. Half the time we ghost Cap the stupid scientist gets lost.
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Yes all the most recent changes to the game have converted it to City of Farmers,
1) purple recipes tied to mob defeats = best way to get them = farm or PL
2) XP smoothing = reduced the number of drops per level = farm oro to get stuff.
3) XP smoothing = sweeping hazard zones are the best place to level (again, we've come full circle on this one) and while you are sweeping you get to farm.
Lotta really bad ideas here that all point to skipping content and merely farming as the "most efficient way to play the game"
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It does hurt a casual player experiencing a tf for the fist time.
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I do hope that's enough of a sticking point to make them change their minds...
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Task and Strike Forces are due for a major revamp, anyway. Instead of just trying to plug supposed exploits, how about the developers put some time on the schedule to:
1. Address the disparity in TFs between the hero and villain sides. Namely, give the villain side more SFs to balance the two sides.
2. Reduce the minimum number of players required for a TF or SF to a maximum of six. Only exception: STF and LRSF, since they are meant to be endgame challenges and "hardcore".
3. Rework most of the original TFs in CoH. Simply put, the majority are way too long. It would be one thing if each mission was unique and exciting but they are literally nothing more than door missions strung together, something you do throughout regular gameplay. Tacking an AV to the end of the last one doesn't make a TF special. When a player gets the reward at the end of a TF or SF, it should feel like something they truly earned, not just a gift for slogging through a bunch of stock door missions and AV. Some TFs are like this now. Most aren't. The Positron TF is rather embarrassing as the introduction to TFs in general. Bland and overlong. The Shadow Shard TFs are bursting with filler missions that do nothing but extend the length needlessly.
4. Consider allowing a TF or SF to recruit new players if they drop below the minimum number of players. Adjust rewards accordingly (ie. don't let a player that joins for just the last mission qualify for the end of TF reward).
5. Merge the markets. Two other major MMOs, EQ2 and WoW, both allow the opposing factions to sell to the other. There's no reason to keep an artificial separation in CoH/V, especially since the entire process in this game is blind -- you wouldn't know you were buying from a villain or hero, anyway.
I don't object to them trying to fix softloading but I think we are way past due on getting other just as important changes made to TFs. These should be the premier content of the game and as often as not, they are really nothing special at all.
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1) Why did it take until today for a post about this to be made?
2) How can inconsistencies with what is described and what people are experiencing be explained? For example, people are reporting that many of the TF spawns have two bosses even for 4-man teams. In a standard map, two-boss spawns are limited to 8-man teams.
3) Changes of this nature are inappropriate to fall under your "we don't talk about exploits" rule. This should have been in the test server patch notes. While it does address something you consider an exploit, it does so in a way that clearly impacts ordinary players (permanent loss of teammates on TFs is very common). There was a patch note mentioning that snake eggs weren't worth XP any more. This change was more deserving of mention.
4) If point 3 above is due only to "misplaced" patch notes, whatever you (collectively) are doing to generate patch notes blows. It is attrocious! Worse, this clearly couldn't have gotten any focused testing because people don't normally run TFs on the test server. As a result not only did it not get any "air time" it didn't get any testing by the playerbase - something you guys have made a point of using to improve the quality of your releases. How this could not only missed as a patch note but no one internally realized it hadn't been player tested completely escapes me.
The NCNC team has done a lot to improve my faith in them based on what I consider improvements in past processes and final product. However I consider the handling of this change a real backslide to old (poor) quality.
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I could probably go on. Look how many people here (and alot of the people who have posted here are contributing people, even including members of the City Scoop) that say this change is BAD.
This change fixes NOTHING.
Why has no new content been added for villains since the LRSF? (By new content I mean villain exclusive, so no, RWZ doesn't count) Why are there no pushes to make villain side more appealing? I can tell you right now I have little to no interest in playing a villain. Why? Because noone else does either (or very few)
So....your going to make it harder for people who DO want to play the game, and easier for powergamers (ooohh! a challenge!!) and farmers, who are built to run mishes spawned for 6 anyway.
Seriously.....unnerf regens, invulns, and remove than taunt cap, and the game will pretty much be back where is was a couple years ago. The person who said we've "come full circle" could hardly be any more correct.
I understand that some decisions "need to be made" but this is one time you seriously need to LISTEN TO YOUR CUSTOMERS.
This does not hurt RMT'ers, barely hurts recipe farmers, and REALLY hurts casual players.
WoW is starting to look enticing.....
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2. Reduce the minimum number of players required for a TF or SF to a maximum of six. Only exception: STF and LRSF, since they are meant to be endgame challenges and "hardcore".
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Just to quickly touch on this (since I'm on the Training Room with the Wedding Event, but reading here too) - most Task Forces and Strike Forces have a requirement of 4. I was looking over documentation on the list of SF/TF.
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Really? Most have 4?
Positron: 3
Synapse: 4
Sister Psycho: 5
Moonfire: 6
Citadel: 6
Hess: 6
Katie 'the hero vending machine' Hannon: 6
Manticore: 7
Numina: 4
Quarterfield: 8
Sara Moore: 8
Justin Augustine: 8
Faathim: 8
Lady Grey: 8
Statesman: 8
Average for the *15* TFs: 6.3
That's 3 out of 15 at 4 or less.
Virgil: 4
Mantis: 4
Renault: 4
Ice Mistral: 4
Lady Grey: 8
Recluse: 8
Average for the incredible *6* SFs: 5.3
That's 4 out of 6 at 4, so in fairness villain side isn't so bad... for the very few SFs it actually has.
Edit: CoD was wrong about Virgil being 5 minimum, checked it in game.
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
except the ones people don't want to run in the first place...even those that do (i.e. posi) suck even more now because of this.
edit: that was a quick reply
Bad Idea
I'm all for stopping the farming of TFs through soft loading. (The uber technique is an 8-player team can use 8 alts to start 8 Cap TFs with 8 different teams and have each solo'd to the end with only one member of each team, and then, at the tend, the full teams log into each TF sequentially to finish it off. That's 8 Recipe in under an hour).
However, you've only made the Cap Recipe Farming go from 8 recipes an hour to 8 recipes every 90 minutes.
In addition, you've created the soloist AoE Fire/Kin farmer's dream: a max-loaded infinitely repeatable mission full of farmables.
Weak solution to one problem, a huge boon to another problem.
This idea fails horribly.
And to my fellow players, the two other so-called stealth nerfs were not really stealth changes SINCE WE WERE FRIGGIN TALKING ABOUT THOSE CHANGES ON TEST! How can the Devs hide changes that we already knew about? The moment the patch went live, those **who already knew about the change from Test** started the chant of "STEALTH NERF!" on the live forums only to punish the Devs. These players acted in bad faith and the other players ignorant of what's happening on test fell for their bad-faith attacks on the Devs.
On Test, the Ouroboros 'pseudo-TF' missions were loading as 8 person teams even for one person. That was fixed and some were reporting still large spawns for other TFs, notably Cap. So, we sort of saw this on Test, but no one knew why. So, this is the only true 'stealth' change from Test. Anyone who wants to contest that, I will tell them to their face that they are either ignorant or a liar.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
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To echo what others are saying not only does this help the RMT farmers by making it easier for them to farm,
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How does this help RMT Farmers?
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As repeated several times in the thread, it gives them access to a mission they can reset indefinitely, while only padding once.
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Which mission... more accurately, which TF?
You mean STF? The one full of Arachnos?
You mean Shard? The ones full of CoT, Rularu & Nem
Yeah... most Farmers are going to avoid those.
Most ppl avoid those enemy types to begin with. Why would they want to fight an 8man spawned map full of those & bosses ontop of it. Most farmers complain about being mezzed by Family, heaven help them against Death Mages, Wisp Overlords, Fortunata Seers, Warhulks... yeah, I dont see Farmers being too excited about this.
Now thats not to say some of us wont enjoy it 
, but the farmer looking to maximize his influence / hour... not so much.
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And to my fellow players, the two other so-called stealth nerfs were not really stealth changes SINCE WE WERE FRIGGIN TALKING ABOUT THOSE CHANGES ON TEST!
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Any change not listed in the patch notes is stealth. Those that are not buffs are nerfs. Thus it is a stealth nerf.
I had a suspicion, but I never confirmed it on test before it went live.
Tremere, the farmers will choose the TF or SF mission (note: singular mission) that best suits their needs and just farm that, resetting as needed.
This change is a flat-out boon to farmers. I don't farm AT ALL and even I can see it.
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Bad Idea
I'm all for stopping the farming of TFs through soft loading. (The uber technique is an 8-player team can use 8 alts to start 8 Cap TFs with 8 different teams and have each solo'd to the end with only one member of each team, and then, at the tend, the full teams log into each TF sequentially to finish it off. That's 8 Recipe in under an hour).
However, you've only made the Cap Recipe Farming go from 8 recipes an hour to 8 recipes every 90 minutes.
In addition, you've created the soloist AoE Fire/Kin farmer's dream: a max-loaded infinitely repeatable mission full of farmables.
Weak solution to one problem, a huge boon to another problem.
This idea fails horribly.
And to my fellow players, the two other so-called stealth nerfs were not really stealth changes SINCE WE WERE FRIGGIN TALKING ABOUT THOSE CHANGES ON TEST! How can the Devs hide changes that we already knew about? The moment the patch went live, those **who already knew about the change from Test** started the chant of "STEALTH NERF!" on the live forums only to punish the Devs. These players acted in bad faith and the other players ignorant of what's happening on test fell for their bad-faith attacks on the Devs.
On Test, the Ouroboros 'pseudo-TF' missions were loading as 8 person teams even for one person. That was fixed and some were reporting still large spawns for other TFs, notably Cap. So, we sort of saw this on Test, but no one knew why. So, this is the only true 'stealth' change from Test. Anyone who wants to contest that, I will tell them to their face that they are either ignorant or a liar.
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WTH are you smokin? YOu couldn't do 8 caps in an hour. Hour and a half MAYBE with a prime team. Fact is most runners included fillers or they excluded fillers and did an op team for an hour finish with 6. THATS with perfect timing.
As far as the devs pullin a fast one? I do not think the patch note ommission was an intentional oversight. I n fact? I think Positron threw LightHouse under a bus and in front of the running bull's in Spain and Mexico.
No suberterfuge wasintended in my opinion. A lack of an opportunity to get har d results before a change was implemented was DEFINITELY abused. Don't be upset with LH.
Next question?
WHO made Positron and his ideal's of gameplay GOD?
I am totally serious here. The dude has a lvl 40 ish dom ? Big deal. WE PAY YOU PEOPLE TO PLAY THIS GAME THE WAY WE WANT TO PLAY IT while ashering to the EULA. Don't f up the fun of paying subscriber's or away it all goes. I am speaking for my self only . I feel pretty confident many other vets feel the same though. YOU guys intreoduced loot.... you guys introduced purples.... A player that has ove 2 lvl 50 characters will at some point have the desire to min//max that character. THATS human nature. If you all want to pull bs gimmicks to attract a new crowd every 4 months and tell you rlongtime subscribers to pack a hard one without babyoil... you are on the right track.
Did you really just claim that people won't reset/farm a map with CoT on it?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Yeah, because people hate that arcane salvage, y' know. 
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Tremere, the farmers will choose the TF or SF mission (note: singular mission) that best suits their needs and just farm that, resetting as needed.
This change is a flat-out boon to farmers. I don't farm AT ALL and even I can see it.
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So, once again I ask... which TF?
And no one has ever heard of Fire/Kin farming Behemoths. /sarcasm
Posi's TF needs a major overhaul anyway. Vahz at those levels and numbers (except for min. sized teams) are unbearable, due to random spawn embalmed abom's.
Quarterfield, I haven't done, but the Shadow Shard as a set of Zones need some serious TLC. They're a pain to get around in, a pain to TF in, and a pain to get one of the two total non-TF badges in. Yes, it's an I2 zone, but if Fautline and the Crash Site can get some serious cool added to them, the Shadow Shard can too. Heck, tie some story aspects to it (like making Nem bases part of the area as seen in the RWZ arcs), and maybe reduce the total size of the empty and junk spaces (seriously, recall friend can't port across some of those gaps, and that's a Problem, capital letter intentional), and it shouldn't be too hard to work it into the schedule a few issues down the line (I hope, those are HUGE zones and I assume they'd be HUGE reworks as well, I do know and appreciate that man hours are a very finite resource).
As for most of the other TFs from the beginning, really, the only rework I'd like to see for them is the form of maybe some unique end maps. Instead of taking on the AV in a generic mission, give us something more along the lines of the fight with the Clockwork King, whose map is simply amazing as you get near him. A few more moments like that in game would totally be worth it from a player's perspective, and it would certainly increase interest in the TFs outside of the Task Force Commander badge.