You don't miss it until it's gone. (part 2)
By
Alimistar,
Posted on: 2007-04-16 16:14 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Haven't they learned after all these years? Instancing works!
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This is one thing that gets me when game developers say, "Players don't like instancing! It ruins the immersion! They want wide open worlds!"
Wide open worlds are great, sure, but nothing kills immersion like being the 8th in line to acquire a supposed unique item from a mob that respawns every 15 minutes.
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Blacksmith: Hello, Some Guy. Why, yes, I do have a quest for you. I lost a shipment of special ore. See, it's special for some obscure reason that I don't think you care about.
Me: OK, gotcha. You lost a shipment of ore. I suppose thieves stole it and you want me to go kill them and get your ore back?
Blacksmith: Thieves? Oh, no! The caravan tipped over into the river and frogs ate my ore. You should go out by the river and start killing giant frogs. Some of them should have my ore.
Me: Say what now?!?
Blacksmith: I'm missing about 20 pieces of ore. Well, come on. Chop, chop! Those frogs won't kill themselves.
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Please make Sam an NPC and make some portion of this his quest. Trolls can be frogs and thieves! It'll be great!
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No joke! That was an actual mission. The blacksmith had lost a shipment of ore and frogs had eaten it, so I was supposed to kill frogs until I got 20 drops of ore.
Yeah, sure, the dialogue was all mine, but the mission is as-is 
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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To be honest the reason I stay with COH is that the other games are too hard. Dont laugh. I tried one fantasy game and I couldnt figure out how to slot skills and powers and what ever else they had. I mean how hard is it to decide Fly will go faster with three slots then one slot. Then what do I put in that Fly slot, either a Fly SO or an End SO. Nice and simple.
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Don't feel too bad, I was the same way. During my one-hour trial of WoW, I got three (I think) skills (or whatever they call them). I had no idea what they did, or even how to use them. Then I got some gear which I didn't know how to equip. And I couldn't ask anyone for help because I couldn't figure out how to chat.
After an hour of right-clicking on wolves, I uninstalled it and came back to CoH, where everything made sense.
We'll always have Paragon.
your just lucky the mission wasn't to follow the frogs around with a shovel and catch the ore as it drops from them.
COh to me has captured all the greatness of MMo's and is the first game to come close IMO to the feeling Asherons Call had when it was new, and thats a good thing.
Just yesterday me and my SG made up new toons to form a little sub team and we all still giggled at making characters, and we all have played since day 1, what other game can deliver like that? none!!!!
I've been a part of Paragon long enough to wonder if vet rewards awards are going to expand before I get there (I get the top on in May).
In that time I've taken breaks and looked at other games. LOOKED, not subscribed.
The sad fact is, most of them are the same game - just different graphics, a different GUI and a slightly different magic system. I say magic because WAY too many of them are the same genre and the short game - over and over and over again.
I like it here. After almost three years, I'm going back over stuff I started with and discovering that it's different - and I like that. The world changes and grows. It's good. Heck, I may even re-do Positron's TF some day!
...okay, maybe not.
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Walk over to the MUO design whiteboard, and under "Fun" erase whatever is written and write "balanced" and "mathematically sane."
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No I think those should perhaps be priority two and three. But priority one should always be fun. And more Fun should always or almost always trump the others. After you have considered the Fun aspect then you can worry about balanced and mathematically sane.
See to many times I've seen balanced and mathematically sane used to kill all fun from a potentially good game. 
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
You basically summed up many of my feelings regarding CoX vs Other-MMOs. I took a grand tour of all other MMOs out there, and came back to CoX because I consider it the best offering. Icing on the cake is the issue that made me quit is going to be kinda fixed in I9.
I am fiddling around with the unnamed incomplete MMO because it's...shiny. The irony is that I'm playing it because a sgmate in CoX drew my attention to it, and now I'm playing it with someone else who also plays CoX. We're using it as a pre-I9 diversion. 
"Honesty is for the most part less profitable than dishonesty." -- Plato
Playing Gods (51106) - Heroic Lvl 5-20
What Rough Beast (255143) - Villainous Lvl 40-50
Now I want to see pics of your thursday group.
I love weekly themed groups, I had the new breed on sunday before, but now, pretty much everyone left 
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Haven't they learned after all these years? Instancing works!
[/ QUOTE ]
This is one thing that gets me when game developers say, "Players don't like instancing! It ruins the immersion! They want wide open worlds!"
Wide open worlds are great, sure, but nothing kills immersion like being the 8th in line to acquire a supposed unique item from a mob that respawns every 15 minutes.
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You'd be surprised how many people actually LIKE that kind of thing.
There are people who demand everything that would drive most of us away from a game... They think it means something that they allowed themselves to sit through the frustration.
You can usually spot them fairly easily when they start talking about how "wonderful" EQ was.
"Through Avarice evil smiles; through insanity it sings"
Forum Troll Rule #1: Anyone who disagrees with my point of view is either a fanboy or an idiot.
I'm a proud carebear.
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*trudge trudge trudge*
Oh, look, there's my objective on the other side of that small hill! I'll just cruise right over. Right over. Hmm. Can't get over the hill. Oh, come on, the hill isn't even waist high, I could hop over. If I can't go over the hill, I'd have to take the loooong way around on the path.
Sigh.
*trudge trudge trudge* *fight fight fight* *trudge trudge trudge*
20 minutes later...
Time to go back to CoH!
[/ QUOTE ]cool someone else plays that wonderful semi-mmo where your assasin/whatever, who hops around like a monkey on crack while fighting, cant jump up a simple set of rocks.
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When we sat down to design CoH, we wrote on the white board: "fun." Seems obvious, but many games seemed to miss the mark. That's OK; some games don't need to be fun in order to be successful (I won't name them, but they're out there). We wanted to make a game that had fun moment to moment gameplay. Hard to quantify, but easy to identify when you find it.
Cool posts, BTW.
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Goddamnit. Please don't be so damned smug about that fun thing, when you've missed the mark in so many ways yourself. When you wrote that word up on the board you should have written 'caution: may be subjective' next to it, and used it to remind yourself not to judge your players for pursuing behaviors that you arbitrarily deem not to be fun. You put kill X tasks in the game, and then act surprised when people camp spawners.
UGh. I find it so frustrating when he trots out this 'we're so great' mentality. This game could have been the first *real* game MMO, instead it's become more canned, and more treadmill-like as time goes by.
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[ QUOTE ]
Haven't they learned after all these years? Instancing works!
[/ QUOTE ]
This is one thing that gets me when game developers say, "Players don't like instancing! It ruins the immersion! They want wide open worlds!"
Wide open worlds are great, sure, but nothing kills immersion like being the 8th in line to acquire a supposed unique item from a mob that respawns every 15 minutes.
[/ QUOTE ]
You'd be surprised how many people actually LIKE that kind of thing.
There are people who demand everything that would drive most of us away from a game... They think it means something that they allowed themselves to sit through the frustration.
You can usually spot them fairly easily when they start talking about how "wonderful" EQ was.
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I think that's a gross misunderstanding on their part of what made EQ wonderful. What made EQ wonderful, the main feature that was new and exciting, was that it was multiplayer. Don't laugh, once upon a time that was new and exciting. So we were willing to put up with a lousy deku MUD with a graphical interface because it was multiplayer and massive in scope and that was a brand new combination to us. Of course now you can't get away with that. Everything seems to be multiplayer now, even stuff that probably shouldn't be, and so we now actually want to have a fun game along with the massive and multiplayer bits. Different time, different world.
BTW, if there was one game I'd like to bring back, it would be Ultima Online. Yea yea.. it still exists you say... well, no it doesn't. The game died when its creator, Lord British, left the company and EA drags around its zombie corpse as "The longest running MMO" or some such rubbish as if you could call its undead shuffle "running". But in that game, you could do anything. The down side, you could do anything. The power to do anything + anonymity = a bunch of people being real jerks to other because there are no consequences. If you wonder why we can manipulate items in instances, such as super bases, and not in the main map, it's because if people could create something as simple as a box, the first thing they'd do is spell out rude words with very large letters. Then they'd use them to block entrances and exits. And finally, if it wasn't for PvP flags, they'd then kill the people who are stuck. During my time in UO, I was killed this way more times than I could count and it's not fun yet there was a magic and mystery to being able to do anything that made UO a fantastic, if sometimes annoying, experience. But UO is not ever coming back in any real form. Lord British left Origin Systems, and Origin Systems is dead, eaten by that lumbering behemoth, Electronic Arts. Still, Lord British is now working for NcSoft and may still have a few surprises in him left. I'm looking forward to what he does next. ((and I've signed up for it's beta))
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*trudge trudge trudge*
Oh, look, there's my objective on the other side of that small hill! I'll just cruise right over. Right over. Hmm. Can't get over the hill. Oh, come on, the hill isn't even waist high, I could hop over. If I can't go over the hill, I'd have to take the loooong way around on the path.
Sigh.
*trudge trudge trudge* *fight fight fight* *trudge trudge trudge*
20 minutes later...
Time to go back to CoH!
[/ QUOTE ]cool someone else plays that wonderful semi-mmo where your assasin/whatever, who hops around like a monkey on crack while fighting, cant jump up a simple set of rocks.
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Oh, look here's my objective, "Kill All." Funny, I thought I did that already. Well, I don't see anybody, but I better double check. Hmm, I've checked every room in the building twice...Oh wait there's a guy stuck in the wall that I can't seem to hit.
20 minutes later...
Time to go back to that semi-mmo where you're an assassin/whatever.
Just had to chime in because the topic was looking a little one sided. I agree on most of the things said here, but CoH is not without its faults, some of which are shared by these other games.
On the subject of travel powers, I can see how the OP can prefer them to mounts, but I think it's a problem that either are regarded as such a necessity. It's as if what's going on around the player isn't important or dynamic enough to him, and so the journey to the mission needs to be skipped.
It may just be my personal taste. But I'm just a big fan of technology and science, over fantasy, swords, faeries and magic. I'll let people take thier swords and sticks and they can whack dragon all they want with them... I'll stand back from a safe distance and launch cruise missles or satellite beams at the beast.
I'm the kind to play a good First Person Shooter or better yet.. a Real Time Strategy game.
I was introduced to this game by a very hardcore group of FPS'ers. *shrugs* Why they wanted to be heroes beats me but they dragged me in. Most of them left a month after the game was live, but Im still here.
I dont know if its against the rules mentioning specific products but if it isnt I'll just point to the unmentionables. If this game wasn't around Id probably be playing a space-ship mmo...*coughs* or a massive first-person shooter*coughs again while looking at Lighthouse* or a wishlist game involving giant walking robots taking place in a hypothetical next millenium.*waves byebye to FASA*
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"You never appreciate what you have until it's gone."
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Cherry Popsicle - Ice/Ice Tank - 50
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I can't say this game is perfect, as I do get bored with kill X missions, especially when my contact decides I need to do two in a row.
"Wha? Couldn't you have just had me kill 2X of them in the first place!?" /e throttle_contact
And I do wish there were more types of missions.
However... This game is fairly straightforward - a bit lacking in documentation at times, but the boards and Paragonwiki, and the fact that things are mostly fairly simple makes up for it. It is also fun. And the fact that it is straightforward, fun, and has an amazing character creation set up is why a person who is only vaguely interested in superheroes is playing a superhero game.
Now, my MMO loving friends who have played pretty much ever game out there and are still trying to get me to try "that other MMO" may eventually succeed...but I won't be leaving CoX to do so. And, as beating up on assorted groups of bad guys (or good guys if playing a villain) is more satisfying than beating up forest animals, I may not stick with "that other MMO" even if I do try it.
I guess what I'm trying to say is this: Flaws aside, a game that convinces a non-computer-gamer who is neither here nor there about the gameworld's basic premise to play it...and keep doing so for 9 months has to be doing something right. 
Gotta pretty much echo alot of people here- this is my first "official" MMO and I can't fathom trying other ones. I might but I just signed up for another year here so yeah, not going any where soon.
I also like the ambushes- nothing like getting a mission then all of a sudden villians appearing out of nowhere conning to your lvl trying to take you out.
And to disagree with Arcana- FUN should always be top priority.....Who wants mathimatically sane stuff anyway when you can just blaster it all!!!
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
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Goddamnit. Please don't be so damned smug about that fun thing, when you've missed the mark in so many ways yourself. When you wrote that word up on the board you should have written 'caution: may be subjective' next to it, and used it to remind yourself not to judge your players for pursuing behaviors that you arbitrarily deem not to be fun. You put kill X tasks in the game, and then act surprised when people camp spawners.
UGh. I find it so frustrating when he trots out this 'we're so great' mentality. This game could have been the first *real* game MMO, instead it's become more canned, and more treadmill-like as time goes by.
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I think he, of all people, have a right to think the game is great.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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... a lousy deku MUD with a graphical interface ...
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<nitpick>
That's Diku MUD, not Deku. 
</nitpick>
But yeah, back when EQ was new, if you wanted persistant world, real-time massive multiplayer (where "massive" means more than, say, a half dozen people that arrange things in advance), your options were MUDs, UO and EQ. Guess which was the most immersive, despite its flaws. (Admittedly, I never played UO.)
As it's been said, now that there are options, we want a fun game to go along with it. Sure, I had fun with EQ (and MUDs, and DAoC, and so on), but I've had a lot more fun with City Of than any of the others I've played.
Before Co*, I went back to EQ for a month or two here and there between games. Since Co* was released, I haven't left Paragon long enough to let my billing cycle lapse.
Tech support IRL, CLR/DRU/MED/WHM/PRI/DEF. Hmm, I sense a pattern...
S 80% E 80% A 40% K 0%
A few of my alts
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cool someone else plays that wonderful semi-mmo where your assasin/whatever, who hops around like a monkey on crack while fighting, cant jump up a simple set of rocks.
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Oh, look here's my objective, "Kill All." Funny, I thought I did that already. Well, I don't see anybody, but I better double check. Hmm, I've checked every room in the building twice...Oh wait there's a guy stuck in the wall that I can't seem to hit.
20 minutes later...
Time to go back to that semi-mmo where you're an assassin/whatever.
Just had to chime in because the topic was looking a little one sided. I agree on most of the things said here, but CoH is not without its faults, some of which are shared by these other games.
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First. One's an annoying (and probably rare? I havn't seen it more than once or twice over the last three years) bug. The other is one of the dumbest design desicions in the history of dumb design decisions Well, maybe not. But it's pretty silly and makes you feel like you're playing an arcade game from the 80s.
Bugs are ment to be fixed eventually. Design decisions you can agree or disagree with. I don't think the comparison is fair.
Second. This just happens to be the City of Heroes community forum. You're surprised that we're biased?
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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Samuel_Tow -> Lineage 2 if I am not mistaken - I tried that game out and left it quick.
I love CoH for alot of the reasons stated here (especially the 'fun' factor). On the other hand.. I enjoy the other game the OP talked about, I don't know why but I do. There are many things that game does right compared to other 'similar' MMO's.
Please don't just bash it because you didn't like it - it wasn't your cup of tea, great! It won't be for everyone.
That all said - I will never leave CoH in the near future. I have had too much fun here, and enjoy the whole idea and system too much.
As much as CoH/V may have it's flaws, the more I hear about the other games the more it makes me stay with CoH/V. Yes, we've had our rough times where people thought a change was bad(I was definitely one of these people), but in the end everything is fine right now. Plus, stop and think about it, but perhaps we get tiffed about stuff being changed in this game so much that well we like playing it! That "other" game they could probably make a whole ton of changes and player base like mindless drones would just accept it.
Great post Euler, I'm glad States brought attention to this post in the Dev digest, or I would have missed it.
You summed up everything I've been talking about every since I dared try a different MMO than COH.
I shudder when I think about the countless hours I spent looking for Silver and Copper veins a couple of years back. I also shudder at the thought of all the time I spent traveling in an MMO just this last January. I don't care how shiny and new an MMO is, never again!
Don't mess with Texas!
--moo
I tried the "new" Lord of the Rings MMO and it's a lot a lot like WoW. So much for slapping on a coat of paint and calling it new.
CoH/CoV are always consistently fun when I play... except recently because no one wants my 37 /rad corruptor on their team. *grumbles*
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What stirred me back to reality was the first "Go kill this habitual troublemaker" mission. I journey for a few minutes, find what looks like the spot, to see 6 people standing in a line to nowhere. It's then that I realize, these people are waiting for said monster to spawn so they can have their turn to kill it. "Oh crap," I thought to myself, "this is just like another (IMO) overrated, massively populated MMO I once played. RUN AWAY!"
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Because the mechanics chosen for that 'other' game made it necessary to do this out on the open grid. There is no 'Instancing' for killing that pesky MOB... and therefore the Players are all stuck out there waiting their turn.
Haven't they learned after all these years? Instancing works!