should team buffs have diminishing returns?
By
ageone,
Posted on: 2007-04-10 09:49 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I say we nerf everyone to the same damage and only use brawl. Then this game would really be fun.
Cheers!
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It's not. It's a way to correct the current problems around stacking buffs/debuffs.
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I'm tired of the 3-year beta. Just figure out the lowest amount of effect a power would ever have in their today-endorsed scaling scenario (i.e. the value they are OK with when applied to the max) and just have that be the same number you get all the time. The math and the constant adjustments are just irritating. I want the powers to work the same in all scenarios so I know what I'm getting. If you have to set the value to the smallest ... then fine.
Lewis
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Nerf the site from orbit, its the only way to be sure!
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Nerf the site from orbit, its the only way to be sure!
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Use your eye beams, yarrr.
You know, I always look at the really bad ideas in the suggestions forum and I'm NEVER one of those people that comes on and bashes the person for his bad idea. If anything, I try to offer alternatives to make it a better idea. Honestly, this is worse idea I have ever seen, and only because its so planned out....like some kind of evil plot to take over the world.
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Curse you, Mental Giant!!!
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Curse you, Runcible Spoon!
*looks around bemusedly*
Oops, sorry. i forgot where i was for a second. Carry on.
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Nerf the site from orbit, its the only way to be sure!
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Use your eye beams, yarrr.
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Pew Pew! As it were...
I pew pewed this whole thread, but the stackable quotes are debuffing my attempts!
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But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
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I don't doubt a whole bunch of stacked AOEs is very nasty against normal mobs. It's when the blasters run into AVs and GMs when things become wipes.
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You know nothing of what you speak.
I'm just a holy fool, oh baby it's so cruel
Thessalia, by Darkchildx2k
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I love it when this topic comes up...
Back before Issue 5, buffs were secondary, practically unnecessary. Tanks were king. The Devs make some changes that actually make buffs useful, and people cry foul, especially those who played Tanks.
This topic comes up at least once every few months, always by someone who played an AT that didn't need support back before the GDN and ED. And considering the OP started a thread in the AT General section about Tanks' usefulness in the post-GDN/ED world... color me not surprised.
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Sir, it is improper to build oneself up by standing on the backs of those who were cut down.
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QFT. But the lie is that buffs weren't useful. They just weren't necessary.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I say we nerf everyone to the same damage and only use brawl. Then this game would really be fun.
Cheers!
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Love the strawman.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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You know, I always look at the really bad ideas in the suggestions forum and I'm NEVER one of those people that comes on and bashes the person for his bad idea. If anything, I try to offer alternatives to make it a better idea. Honestly, this is worse idea I have ever seen, and only because its so planned out....like some kind of evil plot to take over the world.
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That's a wonderful argument for why this is a bad idea...oh wait..it's not.
There are no arguments here being put forth by anyone opposed to making buffs fair. There are just a lot of people who play buff/debuff sets who don't think what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Basically, additional buffs would always be helpful, but the base level abilities could be made better and more useful across the board.
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I wish you could do this. I wish it so much. I hope, for your sake and the sake of its players, that you're doing it for MUO. Sadly, I'd rather not play in the Marvel Universe, and I'd rather not leave this game.
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Basically, additional buffs would always be helpful, but the base level abilities could be made better and more useful across the board.
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I wish you could do this. I wish it so much. I hope, for your sake and the sake of its players, that you're doing it for MUO. Sadly, I'd rather not play in the Marvel Universe, and I'd rather not leave this game.
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I'll bet you money that they won't make the same mistakes with MUO that they did here.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I say we nerf everyone to the same damage and only use brawl. Then this game would really be fun.
Cheers!
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Love the strawman.
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I liked the Tin Man.
Cheers!
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There are no arguments here being put forth by anyone opposed to making buffs fair. There are just a lot of people who play buff/debuff sets who don't think what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
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Whereas you, of course, deeply care about what's "fair", and aren't out to punish buff/debuff sets becuase you think "what's good for the goose is good for the gander".
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Basically, additional buffs would always be helpful, but the base level abilities could be made better and more useful across the board.
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I wish you could do this. I wish it so much. I hope, for your sake and the sake of its players, that you're doing it for MUO. Sadly, I'd rather not play in the Marvel Universe, and I'd rather not leave this game.
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I'll bet you money that they won't make the same mistakes with MUO that they did here.
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They'll make all new, all different ones!
And repeat some things that I consider to be mistakes but they consider hunky-dory like travel suppression. I'm sure Quicksliver won't be subject to it, though. :P
Honestly. I don't mean to suck up, and maybe I'm off base since I don't know how things work internally at Cryptic, but I think Castle becoming powers lead is the best thing that's happened to this game since Issue 3. He's not the powers lead in MUO.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
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There are no arguments here being put forth by anyone opposed to making buffs fair. There are just a lot of people who play buff/debuff sets who don't think what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
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Whereas you, of course, deeply care about what's "fair", and aren't out to punish buff/debuff sets becuase you think "what's good for the goose is good for the gander".
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The obtuseness of people on these boards is amazing.
I was an invuln tanker who argued in favor of the invuln nerf. Invuln was godmode and it was boring. I quit playing because it was so boring.
This is not a punishment. This is not a nerf to buffers. This is a nerf to a broken mechanic which rewards stacking the same buffs in large teams.
This is a boost to buffers in small teams. This is a boost to people with different buffs trying to find teams.
As has been stated - There is no counter argument to this, just whining and facetious claims about nerfing damage. If anyone opposed to this has a legitimate argument I would love them to post it. They have not. So I conclude that there is none.
And I further note that any posts about "nerf everything to brawl damage" or "he posted about tankers he must be evil" are simply admissions that you have no leg to stand on and are just trying to confuse the issue. Please continue to go on record as having no valid argument if you wish. It only weakens your side and demonstrates your lack of a case.
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team buffs have a mechanics problem. Teams vary in size from 1-8 so a buff that applies to everyone on the team is multiplied in effectiveness from 1x to 8x. Either a buff is useless for small teams or godmode for large teams - or both.
What if team buffs had diminishing returns? Say 150% effectiveness for teams of 1-2, 125% for 3-4, 100% for 5-6, and 75% for 7-8 (numbers given are just an idea, the real numbers would need to be better balanced and more complex like (Y-1) X (12.5% + R/2.3).
That way buffs would be more useful on smaller teams and less powerful on bigger teams than they are now. A team buff should still give a bigger total boost on a large team but not 4x on an 8 person team what it does on a 2 person team.
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Yes, they should. In fact, adding diminishing returns to buffs and debuffs of all sorts would allow us to alter many, many problematic powers. In all likelyhood, though, it will not happen. The change would simply be too fundmental and require a great deal of work on our part.
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Lord help us, they'd do it if they could! 
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Sure! Then Weave could give 15% Defense, and Combat Jumping could give 25% Defense (or whatever) and combined, they'd give 30% instead of 40%. When the local FF Defender buffed the character, instead of the normal 25% for the FF, it'd be 5% for 35% defense.*
Basically, additional buffs would always be helpful, but the base level abilities could be made better and more useful across the board.
* Disclaimer: All numbers used illustratively and do not indicate any relation to what said values or formulae would actually be if we were ever to implement a system such as this, which I doubt.
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Err, wouldn't such a system essentially be going back to the Pre-ED "no one really needs buffs" situation that ED and the GDN were partially intended to fix?
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GDN and ED were intended to make buffs USEFUL, not necessary. And they would remain so.
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And they still aren't necessary, they're just much more usefu thanl in the past. -Regen debuffs are currently required for AV battles in many cases, but thats a result of boring, unimaginative AV design that seems to be summed up by Challenge=Giant Sack of HP.
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There are no arguments here being put forth by anyone opposed to making buffs fair. There are just a lot of people who play buff/debuff sets who don't think what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
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Whereas you, of course, deeply care about what's "fair", and aren't out to punish buff/debuff sets becuase you think "what's good for the goose is good for the gander".
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The obtuseness of people on these boards is amazing.
I was an invuln tanker who argued in favor of the invuln nerf. Invuln was godmode and it was boring. I quit playing because it was so boring.
This is not a punishment. This is not a nerf to buffers. This is a nerf to a broken mechanic which rewards stacking the same buffs in large teams.
This is a boost to buffers in small teams. This is a boost to people with different buffs trying to find teams.
As has been stated - There is no counter argument to this, just whining and facetious claims about nerfing damage. If anyone opposed to this has a legitimate argument I would love them to post it. They have not. So I conclude that there is none.
And I further note that any posts about "nerf everything to brawl damage" or "he posted about tankers he must be evil" are simply admissions that you have no leg to stand on and are just trying to confuse the issue. Please continue to go on record as having no valid argument if you wish. It only weakens your side and demonstrates your lack of a case.
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The arrogance of people on these boards is equally amazing.
Your conclusion is based on facetious facts, supposition and your own opinion. There is no test environment for you to gather evidence to support your claims.
My opinion is that this sort of change would marginalize many sets and would be a general blow to teaming.
Why team when I can solo my Invincible missions?
Welcome to City of Soloers.
Sign It : http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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I didn't say they didn't make each other safer, I said they didn't increase each other's damage. They make each other safer via controls, not damage.
The person I was responding too, was posting the tired, BS about damage stacking. Which it does not.
And BTW KB doesn't stack either unless you can get them to hit at the exact same time.
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Safer Blasters damage more...so the end result is the same. Keeping mobs on the ground twice the amount of time is stacking. 
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Everyone keeps saying this is nerf-herding. It's not. It's a way to correct the current problems around stacking buffs/debuffs.
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e/ ok sign
It's pretty safe to say each and every nerfherder in history believes they are solving game breaking problems and saving all humanity.
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Your conclusion is based on facetious facts, supposition and your own opinion. There is no test environment for you to gather evidence to support your claims.
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Mine's based on math, and I don't really need a test server to test mine, because there's no effect that multiplicative stacking systems grant that isn't easily testable on the current live servers.
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My opinion is that this sort of change would marginalize many sets and would be a general blow to teaming.
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I'm speaking for my own suggestion, and not any of the many others that have been proposed in the past or in this thread: in mine, this is logically and mathematically impossible. Not just improbable: literally impossible, because of its construction. Every buffing set would have the same effect on something that wasn't pre-buffed, as it would have on something that was already buffed. There is no player-centric or team-centric downside to such a behavior that can possibly exist, unless you believe the entire purpose to your existence is to overstack with a twin.
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Your conclusion is based on facetious facts, supposition and your own opinion. There is no test environment for you to gather evidence to support your claims.
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Mine's based on math, and I don't really need a test server to test mine, because there's no effect that multiplicative stacking systems grant that isn't easily testable on the current live servers.
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My opinion is that this sort of change would marginalize many sets and would be a general blow to teaming.
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I'm speaking for my own suggestion, and not any of the many others that have been proposed in the past or in this thread: in mine, this is logically and mathematically impossible. Not just improbable: literally impossible, because of its construction. Every buffing set would have the same effect on something that wasn't pre-buffed, as it would have on something that was already buffed. There is no player-centric or team-centric downside to such a behavior that can possibly exist, unless you believe the entire purpose to your existence is to overstack with a twin.
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I'm partially making a point to the OP I replied to but I also want to know what it is about your suggestion that encourages teaming?
Sign It : http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Watching the discussion in this thread is akin to watching two men argue the merits of kicking each other in the nuts.
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I love it when this topic comes up...
Back before Issue 5, buffs were secondary, practically unnecessary. Tanks were king. The Devs make some changes that actually make buffs useful, and people cry foul, especially those who played Tanks.
This topic comes up at least once every few months, always by someone who played an AT that didn't need support back before the GDN and ED. And considering the OP started a thread in the AT General section about Tanks' usefulness in the post-GDN/ED world... color me not surprised.
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Sir, it is improper to build oneself up by standing on the backs of those who were cut down.