should team buffs have diminishing returns?
By
ageone,
Posted on: 2007-04-10 09:49 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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This would be an extreme solution so something that isn't really a problem.
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See: Travel power suppression
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Darn you Click. Please don't get me started. 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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This would be an extreme solution so something that isn't really a problem.
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See: Travel power suppression
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Darn you Click. Please don't get me started.
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SUPPRESSION!
SUPPRESSION!
HA!
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This would be an extreme solution so something that isn't really a problem.
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QFT.
~Missi
http://tinyurl.com/yhy333s
Miss Informed in 2016! She can't be worse than all those other guys!
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This would be an extreme solution so something that isn't really a problem.
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See: Travel power suppression
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Darn you Click. Please don't get me started.
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SUPPRESSION!
SUPPRESSION!
HA!
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Away devil. I'm through with you! 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Oh god, ED for buffs.
No thank you.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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all-defender teams are at one of two extremes. They either do exceptionally well, or crash and burn faster than you can blink.
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That is for sure. Funny how Repeat Offenders always gets hauled out as an example by people that don't play with us. Believe me, there are plenty of wipes, and no, not all of them are my fault. 
Cheers!
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I agree that wipes are very easy with some all defender teams. But would you also acknowledge Hobo, that a well constructed Defender team that uses their buffs (they don't have to be skilled just use their powers) can be invincible?
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I would not say invincible. Even though all defender teams are rare for RO these days ( heck I play a scrapper with RO most times, we blasters, Khelds, an all tank SG, etc.)
But as we have said, you need to have a decline on stacked damage.
For instance our new project on Justice is Fire/Storm controllers, the whole basis is stacked Heat Feat/aoe dmg, or with our Kinves of Artemis project with stacked caltrops. Or our in the works /DA project, stacking CoD, OG, Fear, etc.
If your going to nail stacked debuffs you need to do it across the board and nail stacked damage auras, aoes, slows, etc.
But even in these teams, mistakes happen, people die, so I wouldn't say they are incinvible.
Cheers!
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team buffs have a mechanics problem. Teams vary in size from 1-8 so a buff that applies to everyone on the team is multiplied in effectiveness from 1x to 8x. Either a buff is useless for small teams or godmode for large teams - or both.
What if team buffs had diminishing returns? Say 150% effectiveness for teams of 1-2, 125% for 3-4, 100% for 5-6, and 75% for 7-8 (numbers given are just an idea, the real numbers would need to be better balanced and more complex like (Y-1) X (12.5% + R/2.3).
That way buffs would be more useful on smaller teams and less powerful on bigger teams than they are now. A team buff should still give a bigger total boost on a large team but not 4x on an 8 person team what it does on a 2 person team.
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bwahahahahaha. You're funny.
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Wow... Just wow. An idiot and a jerk. Everything you just said... Hmm... 100% incorrect.
/ignore
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*Evidence*
Interesting how this person seems to have an affinity for name-calling
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I recognize that people who rely upon broken mechanics as a crutch for their poor skills are often terrified that their uber abilities will be taken away and that you are acting according - it may not have been concious, but it's definitely a factor.
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Way to try to bait someone into a flame war troll!
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*evidence*
More unprovoked name calling
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I recognize that people who rely upon broken mechanics as a crutch for their poor skills are often terrified that their uber abilities will be taken away and that you are acting according - it may not have been concious, but it's definitely a factor.
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Way to try to bait someone into a flame war troll!
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*evidence*
More unprovoked name calling
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I would hardly call that flame bait unprovoked. That was classic trolling.
Cheers!
This game has huge problems with force multipliers. Mutltiple kins in an 8 man team using FS and SB reliably will ensure god mode for basically any team makeup. Either ability being stackable is just a little bit broken and damage caps are hit much easier than realistically should be possible. The same happens with multiple dark or rad sets flooring accuracy and damage in enemies.
I would be for diminishing returns in stackable buffs and debuffs but not ones that are overly harsh. Just ones that make it so that god mode teams are just a tiny bit harder to attain.
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If your going to nail stacked debuffs you need to do it across the board and nail stacked damage auras, aoes, slows, etc.
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I don't have a problem necessarily with stacking, it's ultimate numbers. But in any event, damage does not 'stack'. Damage is an instant resolution event. Stacking isn't really applicable.
I don't disagree that controls have the same problem as debuffs. Hence the hated purple triangles.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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team buffs have a mechanics problem. Teams vary in size from 1-8 so a buff that applies to everyone on the team is multiplied in effectiveness from 1x to 8x. Either a buff is useless for small teams or godmode for large teams - or both.
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I don't see it this way at all. Assembling a team where you have all the right buffs and debuffs is a tremendous pain. If you're willing to go through the effort (you and the other seven players), this is like the MMORPG version of assembling a 'hand-picked team of highly trained agents'. If the players are willing to put in the effort and coordinate with each other on their builds and power selections then, yes, they should reap the reward of being extraordinarily effective in battle.
A PUG of 8 random defenders is NOT going to decimate their enemies.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Link
That thread is pretty much the reason for this one.
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Actually it is not but nice attempt at inductive reasoning. Trying to find a master plan in my posts is giving me far too much credit.
I've been playing a controller, and teaming with controllers and defenders. On a two person team a defender is not very helpful, on an 8 person team a defender is amazing. The game seems to be designed around solo or 8 person teams with nothing in the middle.
It is bad design to have 2 defenders teaming be weak and 8 defenders teaming be godmode. The 2 defenders team should be strong and the 8 defenders team should be strong - maybe a bit stronger.
It is a question of balance. There should not be one best way to play the game. And currently there is - stacked buffers (and debuffers but that's another topic) are godmode a duo of buffers is weak. That's bad design and invites abuse.
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A duo of buffers is weak? I think that greatly depends on powersets you're looking at, as well as build style. Let's take Empathy, pretty much a pure buff set, for example.
Two Empaths teamed up can rip through missions fairly well, as long as they've invested some resources in their offense...they may not kill enemies incredibly quickly, but as long as they're on top of their games, they're going to be really hard-pressed to get defeated....Both have Clear Mind, Fortitude, RA, and RegA on 100% of the time, AB on most of the time, and they can both fully heal each other every 6-8 seconds. Throw a third Empath in there, and you've roughly tripled how strong that team is(Double Fort and Double CM up 100% of the time, Double RA and RegA most of the time, and AB still up most of the time on everyone...basically, you'd have three regen blasters with mezz protection and perma-aim running).
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Oh god, ED for buffs.
No thank you.
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I thought we already got ED for buffs since buffs no longer stack from the same caster?
No?
Oh well, whatever. I disagree with the OP. I'll just wait for inventions and buff myself.
Yes, I went there.
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Wow... Just wow. An idiot and a jerk. Everything you just said... Hmm... 100% incorrect.
/ignore
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*Evidence*
Interesting how this person seems to have an affinity for name-calling
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I calls 'em like I sees 'em. The guy posted something that was complete and utter flamebait... In my mind, that makes him an idiot and a jerk.
And here you go again, doing exactly what I called you on in another thread.
"A good Defender is the battle hardened Corpsman who will kill a Nazi with a tongue depressor while putting a splint on your leg, then hand you a fresh clip of ammo." ~Jock_Thompson
Repeat Offenders, TNT Profile, My little hero
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If your going to nail stacked debuffs you need to do it across the board and nail stacked damage auras, aoes, slows, etc.
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I don't have a problem necessarily with stacking, it's ultimate numbers. But in any event, damage does not 'stack'. Damage is an instant resolution event. Stacking isn't really applicable.
I don't disagree that controls have the same problem as debuffs. Hence the hated purple triangles.
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The problem I have is that if your are going to say stacked buffs/debuffs are overpowered, you need to look at teams stacking damage auras. Just as powerful and melt invincible missions just as easy.
Cheers!
I completely understand what the OP is seeing as a problem when playing a Defender. But I don't like his solution.
The issue, IMHO, is more of the Endurance costs rather than the effectiveness. Most defenders will be much more effective in large teams due to the propensity of AOE buffs/debuffs.
To give a couple of examples: Accelerate Metabolism costs the same amount of Endurance when it's affecting 8 characters as it does when it only affects 2. Enervating Field costs the same to run when it's only affecting 3 mobs as it does when it affects 8.
If they modified the costs of defender buffs/debuffs based on the number of toons (including mobs) that were affected, Defenders wouldn't become exhausted as quickly in smaller teams.
Can you explain why this is an issue? I see what you are trying to do here but I don't understand why.
My first question is why would you want buffs to be less effective on the hardest missions? It makes no sense.
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My first question is why would you want buffs to be less effective on the hardest missions? It makes no sense.
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I have a theory. If you make buffs (and debuffs, by extension) less effective, then you bring us back to the Holy Trinity of MMOs: DPS/Tank/Heal™.
This way, the game will be fun for everyone: Damage Dealers (Blasters, Scrappers), Tanks (Tankers), and Healers (Defenders, Controllers).
Currently, Healers are confused because if they team up, they can do something that they shouldn't be able to do, as Healers: deal damage. If we remove the temptation, they can return to the role that God intended for them: non-stop Healing.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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I love it when this topic comes up...
Back before Issue 5, buffs were secondary, practically unnecessary. Tanks were king. The Devs make some changes that actually make buffs useful, and people cry foul, especially those who played Tanks.
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You're over simplifying history here. Buffs were always useful. They just weren't so necessary. Also, don't sell the "tankers were king" stuff too much. That's a 2 issue state of affairs. Before I3 tankers had some pretty serious issues. Many different ATs have been king of the world. Just because the one you favor happens to be on top now does not guarantee their ownership of that lofty height.
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This topic comes up at least once every few months, always by someone who played an AT that didn't need support back before the GDN and ED. And considering the OP started a thread in the AT General section about Tanks' usefulness in the post-GDN/ED world... color me not surprised.
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Of course now that the COH world is owned by the buff/debuff characters, of course those would not wish to upset the applecart. I have adapted and joined the buff/debuff overlords, but honestly people should not fool themselves into thinking this game is working in a balanced fashion or any other such nonsense.
Such claims that all buff/debuff teams are not invincible because of team wipes carries little weight. Team wipes on those teams come about because people screw up royally. Otherwise they are an unstoppable steamroller. Buff/debuff teams drop enemies faster than anything else, bar nothing.
Look at TopDocs list of superteams and find me any without any buffer/debuffer. You won't get far. Heck, he tried to make an all tanker one, but decided it had to have kinetics defenders.
Too many alts to list.
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The problem I have is that if your are going to say stacked buffs/debuffs are overpowered, you need to look at teams stacking damage auras. Just as powerful and melt invincible missions just as easy.
Cheers!
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You need to work on your math Hobo. Additive damage auras are nowhere near competitive with force multiplying buffs/debuffs.
In the former case each addition just pitches in damage. In the latter case, each addition not only adds damage, but also increases the damage of those before.
So if we have, say, a team of 8 blasters, they are pretty much just 8 times as effective as one in terms of damage output. This will be somewhat more effective in practice due to things dropping quickly, but still damage has only ramped up by an additive factor. So we can look at that as a damage factor of 8 (8 blasters at damage scale 1).
Say we take 8 storm defenders (since stacked rads are a cliche). They all lay down freezing rain on a target and blast away. Each storm defender adds in a debuff boost of 37% on top of the damage they contribute. Thus you end up with 8*.65 (defender damage scale of course) * 2.96 (8 debuffs of 37%)= 15.39 . This isn't even counting pets, or the far greater comparative safety those stormies will enjoy.
Too many alts to list.
Well Dug, you've opened a hornet's nest here. You see, the log you just rolled over shows the little inside secret that people don't usually want to admit. The fact is, GDN and Special ED didn't really change the high end of how powerful a team can be at all. It just cleared up who should actually be on that team. All rad teams existed from way back in this game, and steamrollered everything even back in the days of tankers as king. They were super then, and they remain super now. The only difference is that others were cut down to size. The buff and debuff caps remain the same. The only difference is that joe scrapper, blaster, or tanker is that much farther from them now than before.
Truth is, I'd say just join the buff/debuff overlords and accept the game as is. I don't see it changing. The devs don't seem to care about how powerful a team actually is, they only care about powerful individuals.
Too many alts to list.
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The problem I have is that if your are going to say stacked buffs/debuffs are overpowered, you need to look at teams stacking damage auras. Just as powerful and melt invincible missions just as easy.
Cheers!
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You need to work on your math Hobo. Additive damage auras are nowhere near competitive with force multiplying buffs/debuffs.
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Have you ever stacked 4 or more Spines/DA's? Much safer and just as fast as any all defender team I have ever been apart of.
Cheers!
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all-defender teams are at one of two extremes. They either do exceptionally well, or crash and burn faster than you can blink.
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That is for sure. Funny how Repeat Offenders always gets hauled out as an example by people that don't play with us. Believe me, there are plenty of wipes, and no, not all of them are my fault.
Cheers!
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I agree that wipes are very easy with some all defender teams. But would you also acknowledge Hobo, that a well constructed Defender team that uses their buffs (they don't have to be skilled just use their powers) can be invincible?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.