should team buffs have diminishing returns?
By
ageone,
Posted on: 2007-04-10 09:49 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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The problem I have is that if your are going to say stacked buffs/debuffs are overpowered, you need to look at teams stacking damage auras. Just as powerful and melt invincible missions just as easy.
Cheers!
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You need to work on your math Hobo. Additive damage auras are nowhere near competitive with force multiplying buffs/debuffs.
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Have you ever stacked 4 or more Spines/DA's? Much safer and just as fast as any all defender team I have ever been apart of.
Cheers!
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Then I guess the point would be that the multiplicative damage of the buff/debuff team is well over the top if a stacked additive team is so deadly eh? The truth of the matter is that few enough challenges in this game are really challenging to a competent team.
I will certainly admit that buff/debuff teams do have some time penalty is setting up debuffs and buffs.
Though I rather expect that if you took an extreme case, say a giant monster and used a buff/debuff team compared to your spines/dark team, the scrappers would be shamed.
Too many alts to list.
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My first question is why would you want buffs to be less effective on the hardest missions? It makes no sense.
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I have a theory. If you make buffs (and debuffs, by extension) less effective, then you bring us back to the Holy Trinity of MMOs: DPS/Tank/Heal™.
This way, the game will be fun for everyone: Damage Dealers (Blasters, Scrappers), Tanks (Tankers), and Healers (Defenders, Controllers).
Currently, Healers are confused because if they team up, they can do something that they shouldn't be able to do, as Healers: deal damage. If we remove the temptation, they can return to the role that God intended for them: non-stop Healing.
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No thanks, don't pigeon hole Defenders. My Kin/Elec/Elec is a damage dealing machine. Healing is a side effect.
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The problem I have is that if your are going to say stacked buffs/debuffs are overpowered, you need to look at teams stacking damage auras. Just as powerful and melt invincible missions just as easy.
Cheers!
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You need to work on your math Hobo. Additive damage auras are nowhere near competitive with force multiplying buffs/debuffs.
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Have you ever stacked 4 or more Spines/DA's? Much safer and just as fast as any all defender team I have ever been apart of.
Cheers!
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Then I guess the point would be that the multiplicative damage of the buff/debuff team is well over the top if a stacked additive team is so deadly eh? The truth of the matter is that few enough challenges in this game are really challenging to a competent team.
I will certainly admit that buff/debuff teams do have some time penalty is setting up debuffs and buffs.
Though I rather expect that if you took an extreme case, say a giant monster and used a buff/debuff team compared to your spines/dark team, the scrappers would be shamed.
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Or you could do it solo with an overpowered temp pet that takes all of 10 minutes to get. 
I don't think a GM could over come the damage with it's regen. 4 staked Quills, Death Shroud, Spine Burst, Throw Spines is an insane amount of AOE damage.
If we get our Spine, /DA project off the ground we will have to give it a go. So far the teams we have run with 3 or more Spine/DA's are really silly. Everything is disoriented, slowed, and falling in heaps.
Cheers!
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No thanks, don't pigeon hole Defenders. My Kin/Elec/Elec is a damage dealing machine. Healing is a side effect.
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I thought he was a sapping machine.
Too many alts to list.
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No thanks, don't pigeon hole Defenders. My Kin/Elec/Elec is a damage dealing machine. Healing is a side effect.
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I thought he was a sapping machine.
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She. 
The sapping comes from the damage. 
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Why not, hey, next lets make damage diminish returns too. After the 2nd blaster, each additional blaster's damage should be cut in half.
3rd does 1/2 damage
4th does 1/4 damage
5th does 1/8 damage
Oh! Oh! Then we should make mezz effects diminish too. After the 2nd controller, each additional hold should drop in magnitude by 1. So the 5th and subsequent hold attack has no effect except to generate aggro.
Brilliant!
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<sarcasm>
Why not, hey, next lets make damage diminish returns too. After the 2nd blaster, each additional blaster's damage should be cut in half.
3rd does 1/2 damage
4th does 1/4 damage
5th does 1/8 damage
Oh! Oh! Then we should make mezz effects diminish too. After the 2nd controller, each additional hold should drop in magnitude by 1. So the 5th and subsequent hold attack has no effect except to generate aggro.
Brilliant!
</sarcasm>
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If damage reinforced other damage I would actually agree with that. But that's not how damage works, but it is how buffs/debuffs work.
It's not even a reasonable or responsible argument that damage is in the same boat. If it were, 8 Blasters would be as powerful as 8 Rads.
For everyone else, it works out like this:
1 Blaster + 1 Blaster doesn't increase either Blaster's damage beyond their solo ability absent powers like Assault, which is a buff.
1 Rad Defender + 1 Kin Defender will give each other more damage thant they would have had separately.
That's why saying silly things like stop damage from stacking is just a distraction. Damage already doesn't stack. That's the point.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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<sarcasm>
Why not, hey, next lets make damage diminish returns too. After the 2nd blaster, each additional blaster's damage should be cut in half.
3rd does 1/2 damage
4th does 1/4 damage
5th does 1/8 damage
Oh! Oh! Then we should make mezz effects diminish too. After the 2nd controller, each additional hold should drop in magnitude by 1. So the 5th and subsequent hold attack has no effect except to generate aggro.
Brilliant!
</sarcasm>
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If damage reinforced other damage I would actually agree with that. But that's not how damage works, but it is how buffs/debuffs work.
It's not even a reasonable or responsible argument that damage is in the same boat. If it were, 8 Blasters would be as powerful as 8 Rads.
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Seems to me Hamster and his all blaster TF's are doing the job as easily as any all defender or controller team I have ever been apart of. *shrug*
Top Doc's all Kehldian team seems to be doing just as well.
Flukes I suppose.
Cheers!
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<sarcasm>
Why not, hey, next lets make damage diminish returns too. After the 2nd blaster, each additional blaster's damage should be cut in half.
3rd does 1/2 damage
4th does 1/4 damage
5th does 1/8 damage
Oh! Oh! Then we should make mezz effects diminish too. After the 2nd controller, each additional hold should drop in magnitude by 1. So the 5th and subsequent hold attack has no effect except to generate aggro.
Brilliant!
</sarcasm>
[/ QUOTE ]
If damage reinforced other damage I would actually agree with that. But that's not how damage works, but it is how buffs/debuffs work.
It's not even a reasonable or responsible argument that damage is in the same boat. If it were, 8 Blasters would be as powerful as 8 Rads.
[/ QUOTE ]
Seems to me Hamster and his all blaster TF's are doing the job as easily as any all defender or controller team I have ever been apart of. *shrug*
Top Doc's all Kehldian team seems to be doing just as well.
Flukes I suppose.
Cheers!
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I doubt that. It's not really possible with teams of equal skill.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Seems to me Hamster and his all blaster TF's are doing the job as easily as any all defender or controller team I have ever been apart of. *shrug*
Top Doc's all Kehldian team seems to be doing just as well.
Flukes I suppose.
Cheers!
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I doubt that. It's not really possible with teams of equal skill.
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Come again, son?
--------------------
Currently listening to the Rolling Stones' Some Girls
Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
Victory Server: Join Victory Forum for team forming and general game chat and IRC Chat: irc.hashmark.net #victory for offline chatting.
Rock, rock on Hamster.
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<sarcasm>
Why not, hey, next lets make damage diminish returns too. After the 2nd blaster, each additional blaster's damage should be cut in half.
3rd does 1/2 damage
4th does 1/4 damage
5th does 1/8 damage
Oh! Oh! Then we should make mezz effects diminish too. After the 2nd controller, each additional hold should drop in magnitude by 1. So the 5th and subsequent hold attack has no effect except to generate aggro.
Brilliant!
</sarcasm>
[/ QUOTE ]
If damage reinforced other damage I would actually agree with that. But that's not how damage works, but it is how buffs/debuffs work.
It's not even a reasonable or responsible argument that damage is in the same boat. If it were, 8 Blasters would be as powerful as 8 Rads.
[/ QUOTE ]
Seems to me Hamster and his all blaster TF's are doing the job as easily as any all defender or controller team I have ever been apart of. *shrug*
Top Doc's all Kehldian team seems to be doing just as well.
Flukes I suppose.
Cheers!
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Well first off TopDoc's "all khelidan team" isn't all kheldian. It's all kheldian+whatever buffer/debuffer you wish to bring to the party. That does a fair job of proving my point.
As for Hamster's all blaster TF, they sound rather like an exercise in how many times they can team wipe before finally getting lucky.
Too many alts to list.
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As for Hamster's all blaster TF, they sound rather like an exercise in how many times they can team wipe before finally getting lucky.
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Not from the way he describes them
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<QR>
<sarcasm>
Why not, hey, next lets make damage diminish returns too. After the 2nd blaster, each additional blaster's damage should be cut in half.
3rd does 1/2 damage
4th does 1/4 damage
5th does 1/8 damage
Oh! Oh! Then we should make mezz effects diminish too. After the 2nd controller, each additional hold should drop in magnitude by 1. So the 5th and subsequent hold attack has no effect except to generate aggro.
Brilliant!
</sarcasm>
[/ QUOTE ]
If damage reinforced other damage I would actually agree with that. But that's not how damage works, but it is how buffs/debuffs work.
It's not even a reasonable or responsible argument that damage is in the same boat. If it were, 8 Blasters would be as powerful as 8 Rads.
[/ QUOTE ]
Seems to me Hamster and his all blaster TF's are doing the job as easily as any all defender or controller team I have ever been apart of. *shrug*
Top Doc's all Kehldian team seems to be doing just as well.
Flukes I suppose.
Cheers!
[/ QUOTE ]
Well first off TopDoc's "all khelidan team" isn't all kheldian. It's all kheldian+whatever buffer/debuffer you wish to bring to the party. That does a fair job of proving my point.
As for Hamster's all blaster TF, they sound rather like an exercise in how many times they can team wipe before finally getting lucky.
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Not from what I have heard on both accounts. I know Top Docs squids have run with defenders and controllers as I have been a quest defender and controller on the teams, but I know they are not like this.
Cheers!
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The problem I have is that if your are going to say stacked buffs/debuffs are overpowered, you need to look at teams stacking damage auras. Just as powerful and melt invincible missions just as easy.
Cheers!
[/ QUOTE ]
You need to work on your math Hobo. Additive damage auras are nowhere near competitive with force multiplying buffs/debuffs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Have you ever stacked 4 or more Spines/DA's? Much safer and just as fast as any all defender team I have ever been apart of.
Cheers!
[/ QUOTE ]
Then I guess the point would be that the multiplicative damage of the buff/debuff team is well over the top if a stacked additive team is so deadly eh? The truth of the matter is that few enough challenges in this game are really challenging to a competent team.
I will certainly admit that buff/debuff teams do have some time penalty is setting up debuffs and buffs.
Though I rather expect that if you took an extreme case, say a giant monster and used a buff/debuff team compared to your spines/dark team, the scrappers would be shamed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or you could do it solo with an overpowered temp pet that takes all of 10 minutes to get.
I don't think a GM could over come the damage with it's regen. 4 staked Quills, Death Shroud, Spine Burst, Throw Spines is an insane amount of AOE damage.
If we get our Spine, /DA project off the ground we will have to give it a go. So far the teams we have run with 3 or more Spine/DA's are really silly. Everything is disoriented, slowed, and falling in heaps.
Cheers!
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The aoe attacks were modified to have a hard cap on the number of mobs affected. I personally prefer diminishing returns as being more elegant, but it seems the devs decided a hard cap was best.
But the basic issue is the same - characters should work well solo against 3 mobs as well as in a team of 4 vs 12 mobs or a team of 8 vs 24 mobs. All powers do not have to work equally well in all cases. But it is bad for a character to have their power level increase to be 8x as powerful by virtue of being in a team of 8 instead of solo.
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As for Hamster's all blaster TF, they sound rather like an exercise in how many times they can team wipe before finally getting lucky.
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Awwwwwweee.
That has to be one of the cutest things I've ever seen a child post on the internet.
You should have your mom print it out and put it on the kitchen fridge. With a magnet.
--------------------
Currently listening to the Rolling Stones' Some Girls
Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
Victory Server: Join Victory Forum for team forming and general game chat and IRC Chat: irc.hashmark.net #victory for offline chatting.
Rock, rock on Hamster.
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As for Hamster's all blaster TF, they sound rather like an exercise in how many times they can team wipe before finally getting lucky.
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Awwwwwweee.
That has to be one of the cutest things I've ever seen a child post on the internet.
You should have your mom print it out and put it on the kitchen fridge. With a magnet.
--------------------
Currently listening to the Rolling Stones' Some Girls
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Ahahaha thanks for making my co-workers stare at me while I nearly spit tea all over my screen. 
Cheers!
Specifically, all blaster TFs clearly demonstrate the power of stacked AoE attacks on groups of mobs. Typically the blasters survive because the bad guys die so quick. Even AVs can't stand up to that kind of firepower.
The problem with all-defender teams is that you waste a few seconds applying debuffs (or reapplying buffs) instead of blasting. When mobs only last a few seconds anyway that can add up.
I do think all Defender teams are probably more forgiving than all Blaster teams (if your team splits in an all Blaster TF it can be bad news for your survivability, especially if both teams aggro two or three spawns like usual), but speed wise it's hard to say.
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Not from what I have heard on both accounts. I know Top Docs squids have run with defenders and controllers as I have been a quest defender and controller on the teams, but I know they are not like this.
Cheers!
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If you want I can go dig up TopDoc's posts when he was setting up the team. he requested Kheldians, then buffers/debuffers of certain flavors with an open invitation. I didn't find the teams all that amusing, but they always had some defenders/controllers on them.
Too many alts to list.
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As for Hamster's all blaster TF, they sound rather like an exercise in how many times they can team wipe before finally getting lucky.
[/ QUOTE ]
Awwwwwweee.
That has to be one of the cutest things I've ever seen a child post on the internet.
You should have your mom print it out and put it on the kitchen fridge. With a magnet.
[/ QUOTE ]
You know if you did anything informative with your posts ever, people might attach importance to what you said. If you need me to dig up your posts on the all blaster TFs where you describe the team wipes, I can. However if you prefer to delude yourself and toss insults as you normally do, feel free.
Too many alts to list.
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Not from what I have heard on both accounts. I know Top Docs squids have run with defenders and controllers as I have been a quest defender and controller on the teams, but I know they are not like this.
Cheers!
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If you want I can go dig up TopDoc's posts when he was setting up the team. he requested Kheldians, then buffers/debuffers of certain flavors with an open invitation. I didn't find the teams all that amusing, but they always had some defenders/controllers on them.
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Aye and they also run without controllers/defenders.
Cheers!
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Specifically, all blaster TFs clearly demonstrate the power of stacked AoE attacks on groups of mobs. Typically the blasters survive because the bad guys die so quick. Even AVs can't stand up to that kind of firepower.
The problem with all-defender teams is that you waste a few seconds applying debuffs (or reapplying buffs) instead of blasting. When mobs only last a few seconds anyway that can add up.
I do think all Defender teams are probably more forgiving than all Blaster teams (if your team splits in an all Blaster TF it can be bad news for your survivability, especially if both teams aggro two or three spawns like usual), but speed wise it's hard to say.
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I don't doubt a whole bunch of stacked AOEs is very nasty against normal mobs. It's when the blasters run into AVs and GMs when things become wipes. I will also accede that buff/debuff teams sacrifice some time to get to their optimal point. However that time is spent on safety to a large degree (as you say).
Too many alts to list.
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As for Hamster's all blaster TF, they sound rather like an exercise in how many times they can team wipe before finally getting lucky.
[/ QUOTE ]
Awwwwwweee.
That has to be one of the cutest things I've ever seen a child post on the internet.
You should have your mom print it out and put it on the kitchen fridge. With a magnet.
[/ QUOTE ]
You know if you did anything informative with your posts ever, people might attach importance to what you said. If you need me to dig up your posts on the all blaster TFs where you describe the team wipes, I can. However if you prefer to delude yourself and toss insults as you normally do, feel free.
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And all defender teams never have team wipes? I could show you videos of all defender teams having wipes if you really want.
Cheers!
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Not from what I have heard on both accounts. I know Top Docs squids have run with defenders and controllers as I have been a quest defender and controller on the teams, but I know they are not like this.
Cheers!
[/ QUOTE ]
If you want I can go dig up TopDoc's posts when he was setting up the team. he requested Kheldians, then buffers/debuffers of certain flavors with an open invitation. I didn't find the teams all that amusing, but they always had some defenders/controllers on them.
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Aye and they also run without controllers/defenders.
Cheers!
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It would be interesting to compare the effectiveness with and without. I suspect it is quite noticeable.
Too many alts to list.
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As for Hamster's all blaster TF, they sound rather like an exercise in how many times they can team wipe before finally getting lucky.
[/ QUOTE ]
Awwwwwweee.
That has to be one of the cutest things I've ever seen a child post on the internet.
You should have your mom print it out and put it on the kitchen fridge. With a magnet.
[/ QUOTE ]
You know if you did anything informative with your posts ever, people might attach importance to what you said. If you need me to dig up your posts on the all blaster TFs where you describe the team wipes, I can. However if you prefer to delude yourself and toss insults as you normally do, feel free.
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And all defender teams never have team wipes? I could show you videos of all defender teams having wipes if you really want.
Cheers!
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I've been on buffer/debuffer teams getting wiped. In that case it's a matter of us doing something stupid. Last one I recall was a pinball wizards team running into an AV without knowing it was present in the group we attacked. We go wiped. Once we all got back and ready, the AV went down in no time.
Too many alts to list.
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Can you explain why this is an issue? I see what you are trying to do here but I don't understand why.
My first question is why would you want buffs to be less effective on the hardest missions? It makes no sense.
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This is just my opinion, but the reason you want to reign in overwhelming stacking of debuffs and some buffs is the same reason for GDN/ED, to ensure that everyone is still needed.
Statesman said point blank that a major reason for GDN was to ensure that buffs were still useful. Prior to that point, pretty much everyone was pretty good on their own. Blasters were probably the weakest, but they could melt down mobs in one-two shots. Tankers and Scrappers basically needed no one. Some controllers basically became godmode after getting their pets. Defenders were very good or completely sucked solo.
Those that sucked needed teams because their primary depends on teams. For example, Empathy only has three powers that the empath can use on himself.
Well, if no one needed Defenders then defenders basically had a hard time going it alone. Repeat Offenders and other Defender focused groups grew out of this. The great HEALOR controversy grew out of this.
So we get GDN and soon after ED. Now, buffs/debuffs are very useful. Only problem is that they are so useful that you really don't need any other AT. All defender/controller teams do just fine on their own. Much, much better than all Scrapper, Blaster or Tanker teams.
Is this a problem? Maybe. The fact is Scrappers/Blasters/Tankers can level and play just fine by themselves. But the problem comes that on group content, it's easy to feel almost superfluous in just the same way that defenders did before.
So what to do?
What I would do is, and this will get me in trouble, is change Defender primaries wholesale. I would get away from this idea that buffs/debuffs should be team only. Casters would be able to cast them on themselves, but stacking would be strictly controlled. Force multipliers would be moderated. Everyone would get a base damage boost, but the DPS ATs would get a bigger one. Everyone would get a survivability boost, but the Tankers would get a bigger one.
End result. Defenders would be able to solo just fine and contribute to a group very well. Tankers would be needed to tank. The DPS ATs would be actually needed to achieve startling DPS and kill speed.
Holy trinity? Maybe. But there's nothing wrong with that so long as everyone can solo well, because that makes all group decent, it just makes the trinity that much better. The problem with the trinity was that not everyone belonged to one of the prongs. So long as everyone is a member, it's fine.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.