Gauntlet and Taunt Auras don't work on AVs anymore
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2006-10-15 21:38 in Tankers
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No comments on the gauntlet issue at the moment -- but I am reading the threads and taking notes.
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I would like to hear the "official position" on this change. At the moment we are assuming this is an intentional stealth nerf of tankers abilities to manage AVs. I think we deserve to know the reason why. Especially as this goes against previous changes to the Tanker AT that were aimed at making Taunt optional.
This issue cannot be allowed remain as it is, the only solution to this issue is to reverse the nerf or make Taunt an inherent ability.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
Considering as a tanker our powers are mostly designed around survival this is a total nerf. Those survival powers are rendered useless to my team if I don't get to consistently use them. If I cannot keep that AV's attention for most of the fight what good is my tanker? Any team would be better off with offensive suited team mates instead of my tanker. It is just unfathomable that we are being FORCED to purchase the taunt power in order to do our jobs versus arch villains.
This is the kind of ridiculous crap that started in games like SWG. Part of the hallmark of this game is the diversity which is allowed in player choices. I enjoyed the fact that once I was high enough level I could drop taunt from my build. And now I'm faced with wasting my I8 respec possibly to get it back so I can tank AVs? You have got be be kidding me !
Juzam
Tanker aficionado
Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way.
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Unfortunately, I have no solutions yet other than "reverse the changes" that don't either render Tankers even less useful in AV fights, or require a complete overhaul of the AT or AVs themselves. I hope someone else can come up with something acceptable to the decision maker(s), I'll continue trying myself.
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How about if Gauntlet has, say, a 10-20% chance to Critical? And a Critical will affect an AV/GM? Chance probably would depend on the activation time of the power, so that if you take the risk of firing a 3-second Total Focus, you have a better chance of using Gauntlet with it upon an AV.
That way, with fast attacking, you have a reasonable chance to use Gauntlet to pull about 20-50% of an AV's aggro to you using Gauntlet, while still letting Taunt serve a purpose (to increase the aggro-lock %), and while still letting the AV have a chance to attack other people during a fight. Like Defenders and Controllers, you'll mitigate team damage but not completely prevent it.
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Let's be real honest - when is ANY particular AT needed given a team of competent players?
Seriously - are we asking too much that there be situations when a given AT is required or needed?
It's one thing to have an AT desireable, another to have it needed.
Personally, when taking down an AV, I have, and still do, prefer to have a Tank around. I feel it's just safer that way.
-- War
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So the new team role for Tanks is to be a placebo?
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Sure - just like every other AT.
There should not be a single mission where ANY AT is needed. Ever.
-- War
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True, very true, and I completely agree.
However, there should be SOME incentive to want a tanker. Maybe not for every mission/AV/GM/whatever. There should be something that we can give to the team, in spades, that no other AT can do as well.
I don't mind that Illusionists can do some tanking. I don't mind that pets can substitute for a tank sometimes. I don't mind that a decent scrapper can do some tanking. But when any one of these three can tank better than I, a tank, for 90% of the content, there is something wrong.
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I don't mind that Illusionists can do some tanking. I don't mind that pets can substitute for a tank sometimes. I don't mind that a decent scrapper can do some tanking. But when any one of these three can tank better than I, a tank, for 90% of the content, there is something wrong.
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They can't tank better. They can tank well enough with the support a tanker needs.
Well, scrappers can't. I hear illusionists can tank pretty well, but I'm not sure how they do it without perma-PA.
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I don't mind that Illusionists can do some tanking. I don't mind that pets can substitute for a tank sometimes. I don't mind that a decent scrapper can do some tanking. But when any one of these three can tank better than I, a tank, for 90% of the content, there is something wrong.
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They can't tank better. They can tank well enough with the support a tanker needs.
Well, scrappers can't. I hear illusionists can tank pretty well, but I'm not sure how they do it without perma-PA.
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With Spectral Terror and Phantom Army and Personal Force Field, I can main tank any spawn in the game.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I don't mind that Illusionists can do some tanking. I don't mind that pets can substitute for a tank sometimes. I don't mind that a decent scrapper can do some tanking. But when any one of these three can tank better than I, a tank, for 90% of the content, there is something wrong.
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They can't tank better. They can tank well enough with the support a tanker needs.
Well, scrappers can't. I hear illusionists can tank pretty well, but I'm not sure how they do it without perma-PA.
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With Spectral Terror and Phantom Army and Personal Force Field, I can main tank any spawn in the game.
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The point is that those three examples, and possibly more, can substitute for a tank in most of the content, plus add:
-Scrappers-Bosskilling like nobodies buisness
-Controllers-great lockdown
There shouldn't be a need to pick up a tank, but there should be something we can do better than the rest that makes us desirable. At the moment, I am struggling to find one. And this is the main reason I don't often team with my tanker anymore. Not because I don't like to team, it's because I don't know what I am supposed to do.
Basically, our role in a team has been narrowed down to a razor thin aspect of the game, while other AT's roles have expanded. Given the way of the Devs, I really don't see a solution, other than rolling the Tanker AT into the Scrappers. I never thought that Meatshields held a place (conceptually) in a world of Super Heroes. But then again, I came into this game from Comic books, not from other MMORPGs. So, I am biased in that direction.
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I don't mind that Illusionists can do some tanking. I don't mind that pets can substitute for a tank sometimes. I don't mind that a decent scrapper can do some tanking. But when any one of these three can tank better than I, a tank, for 90% of the content, there is something wrong.
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They can't tank better. They can tank well enough with the support a tanker needs.
Well, scrappers can't. I hear illusionists can tank pretty well, but I'm not sure how they do it without perma-PA.
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With Spectral Terror and Phantom Army and Personal Force Field, I can main tank any spawn in the game.
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Yeah, I can see how that'd work.
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Thanks for reading. I'm going to get a group up tonight and try to do some testing to verify what's happening. I'll post the results.
B
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I hear illusionists can tank pretty well, but I'm not sure how they do it without perma-PA.
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With 3 recharge SOs, I can usually have PA up by the next fight unless the previous one took 5 seconds due to a blaster nova. My illusionist controller is usually team recruiter when I play, and I have to admit I only look for a tank when I can't find a scrapper. As long as I have a defender, who my best friend is, to keep the scrapper alive, the scrapper is much more useful. I say this with my only level 50 being a tank who I love very much.
As a compromise, I like the idea of linking gauntlet with hold magnitude when it comes to AVs except when the AVs can't be held, they should be tauntable by gauntlet and when they can be held, they should not be tauntable by gauntlet.
Tankers should also get their damage increased (maybe 15%) in compensation for losing gauntlet against AVs.
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I hear illusionists can tank pretty well, but I'm not sure how they do it without perma-PA.
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With 3 recharge SOs, I can usually have PA up by the next fight unless the previous one took 5 seconds due to a blaster nova. My illusionist controller is usually team recruiter when I play, and I have to admit I only look for a tank when I can't find a scrapper. As long as I have a defender, who my best friend is, to keep the scrapper alive, the scrapper is much more useful. I say this with my only level 50 being a tank who I love very much.
As a compromise, I like the idea of linking gauntlet with hold magnitude when it comes to AVs except when the AVs can't be held, they should be tauntable by gauntlet and when they can be held, they should not be tauntable by gauntlet.
Tankers should also get their damage increased (maybe 15%) in compensation for losing gauntlet against AVs.
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Tankers really really really do not need a damage boost.
The triangle idea is kind of neat, though. I'm not sure I'd want to see it implemented, but it's better than what we have now.
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Inserting more anectodal evidence.
I was fighting an AV with a group of 8 and gauntlet did NOT work. If all I did was attack the AV I never got its attention, it kept nuking the blasters.
I _had_ to use taunt to get the AV's attention.
I've had a confirmation.
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Re: Gauntlet doesn't work anymore on (some?) AVs
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It has been this way for a loooooong time, it's nothing new. Certain levels of enemies are simply too smart to fall for the old "I hit you, so now you hate me" level of taunt.
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I am still waiting for an official stance to be taken on the Tanker Inherent and how it is to be used. Obviously it is not sudposed to be used on AVs, Giant Ms, and Players. There is a possibility it is not sudposed on work on Elite Bosses and pets.
That means we can only use our inherent on Minions, LTs, and Bosses and it is the ONLY inherent that is limited to targets of low consequence.
(Virtue/Champion) Neil Fracas: Inv/SS
(Virtue) Gideon Fontaine: MA/SR (Sc), Generic Hero 114: Ice/Cold, Marcus Tyler AR/En, Project F: Spines/DA (S)
(Champion) Jenna Sidal BS/SD, Generic Hero 114: En/En (Bl), Loganne Claws/WP (Sc)
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That means we can only use our inherent on Minions, LTs, and Bosses and it is the ONLY inherent that is limited to targets of low consequence.
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See. Join the MeatSack(tm) bandwagon. All the cool kids are.
Too many alts to list.
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Re: Gauntlet doesn't work anymore on (some?) AVs
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It has been this way for a loooooong time, it's nothing new. Certain levels of enemies are simply too smart to fall for the old "I hit you, so now you hate me" level of taunt.
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*But* MOST of the AI in the game *is* stupid enough to fall for the "I hit you, so now you hate me" level of taunt. So enjoy the stupid AI through 90% of the game.
*And* instead of being stupid enough to fall for the "I hit you, so now you hate me" level of taunt, AV's instead are stupid enough to fall for the "I pointed at you and said 'aha!', so now you hate me" level of taunt. Yes, quintessential CoH fix.
Wait....I was trying to find the silver lining.
Life - a sexually transmitted terminal condition.
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Poster: docbuzzard
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Poster: Gideon "The Heavy Assault Scrapper" F 
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That means we can only use our inherent on Minions, LTs, and Bosses and it is the ONLY inherent that is limited to targets of low consequence.
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See. Join the MeatSack(tm) bandwagon. All the cool kids are.
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Meatsack?! I hit build up and I kill things. The only difference now is people know I'm not holding aggro from the AV.
I had a choice between about 10 defenses that do next to nothing costign 70% of my slots or bare bones def of about 3-4 good powers and 6 slotting any attack that will drop a bad guy in 3-5 seconds.
You can tell my choice from the following on test... That and I like reminding people that Tanks are "Heavy Assault Scrappers" approaching a combat like... Well a tank and the first thing hit by it's cannon is going to die while it looks for a new target to gratuitously smear across 2 time zones.
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11-26-2005 18:14:03 [TANKER TEST] da5id: stats?
[TANKER TEST] Neo-Mitzi1: 2003 xp/min, highest today
[TANKER TEST] da5id: wow
[TANKER TEST] Neo-Mitzi1: 15% higher than the scrappers
[Team]ERG-1: scrank for the win!
[TANKER TEST] da5id: those small maps really make big diff
[TANKER TEST] Neo-Mitzi1: on a similar map
[Team]Neil Fracas: that was my scranker style. CHAAAAAAAAARGE!!
[TANKER TEST] Neo-Mitzi1: it was a thing of beauty
[TANKER TEST] Myrmydon: Interesting. A Scranker can contribute to a team as well as or better than a Scrapper
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Neil Fracas (38)
Neo-Mitzi1 (17)
ERG-1 (36)
Cap. Capitalism (20)
Radial Splendor (3)
.
Scranker beats the Blaster by 2 with no AoEs
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(Virtue/Champion) Neil Fracas: Inv/SS
(Virtue) Gideon Fontaine: MA/SR (Sc), Generic Hero 114: Ice/Cold, Marcus Tyler AR/En, Project F: Spines/DA (S)
(Champion) Jenna Sidal BS/SD, Generic Hero 114: En/En (Bl), Loganne Claws/WP (Sc)
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It has been this way for a loooooong time, it's nothing new. Certain levels of enemies are simply too smart to fall for the old "I hit you, so now you hate me" level of taunt.
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So does that mean the statute of limitation has passed on this particular steath nerf? Basically if the devs are stealthy enough then by the time the wider player base starts to sit up and take notice of a stealth nerf, the devs can simply say, "that's old news, nothing to see here." Very clever way of dodging responsibility.
(PS, I'll grant that Castle did say he'd "pay attention" to it, forgive me for being skeptical that this will translate into any actual change.)
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[TANKER TEST] Myrmydon: Interesting. A Scranker can contribute to a team as well as or better than a Scrapper
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Not sure what you're trying to say. No one is argueing that a Tanker can make a somewhat unique contribution on non-AV teams. They under-damage Scrappers, but they control aggro and are less likely to die. The point is that if a non-Taunt tanker can't tank an AV, what point does a tank have in an AV battle. The answer clearly is none. A tanker's sole and singular pupose in an AV battle is to keep aggro. The tanker's inherent doesn't allow him to do that. Sure a tank can contribute damage, but it will be less damage than other ATs with *nothing* to compensate for that lack.
This may be off the wall or whatever; but how many of you (testing thig) actually slot taunt enh in your attacks? Maybe try 1 or even 2 in your attacks to see if it causes a difference.
This may be along the lines of what the other guy was getting at with the hold mag thing. But what if AV's and GM's had a taunt mag level? Not as beefy as the PTOD but something that would have to be constantly monitored by the tank. That way you couldn't just stand there using taunt and expect it to work. You'd have to taunt, hit, and use your AOE. If you skip taunt the mag level wouldn't be insurmountable, but would make your job a bit more difficult. If you dipped into the presence pool (which hardly anyone I know does these days), it would make your job even easier.
Thoughts?
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Poster: HeckTender
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Not sure what you're trying to say. No one is argueing that a Tanker can make a somewhat unique contribution on non-AV teams. They under-damage Scrappers, but they control aggro and are less likely to die. The point is that if a non-Taunt tanker can't tank an AV, what point does a tank have in an AV battle. The answer clearly is none. A tanker's sole and singular pupose in an AV battle is to keep aggro. The tanker's inherent doesn't allow him to do that. Sure a tank can contribute damage, but it will be less damage than other ATs with *nothing* to compensate for that lack.
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Actually you pretty much noticed what I was saying but kinda glossed over it. Going by the base dmg modifier for Tanks (.8)and the base dmg for Scrappers (1.15) It seems like Tankers do less dmg but that isn't always the case. I'll pick a few as an example.
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Disembowel - 5.4444 Lethal // Head Splitter - 7.2222 Lethal
Soaring Dragon - 5.0000 Lethal // Golden Dragonfly - 6.3333 Lethal
Crane Kick - 5.4469 Smashing // Eagles Claw - 6.3363 Smashing
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VS
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Swoop - 6.3333 Lethal // Cleave - 7.6667 Lethal
Energy Transfer - 4.3333 Smashing + 8.3333 Energy // Total Focus - 2.7778 Smashing + 7.1111 Energy
Heavy Mallet - 6.3333 Smashing // Seismic Smash 9.89 smashing
Haymaker - 4.5556 Smashing // Knockout Blow - 9.8889 Smashing
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Multiply the numbers by the base AT mods and you will have very simular numbers. The dmg by the Tanker however is slower not lower due to the powers having longer recharge and heftier end recharge. What the Tanker loses in speed he gains in the ability to take a shot that would 1 shot all but the most sturdy Scrappers. The less likely to die bit does give them a home on an AV team because they don't have to be baby sat by the Conts/Defs as much.
The big issue is our inherent should work to some degree not be completely be ignored so that a Tanker that wants to go full out "Heavy Assault Scrapper" on an AV or GM will have most of it's attention so it looks for alternate targets a lot less.
(Virtue/Champion) Neil Fracas: Inv/SS
(Virtue) Gideon Fontaine: MA/SR (Sc), Generic Hero 114: Ice/Cold, Marcus Tyler AR/En, Project F: Spines/DA (S)
(Champion) Jenna Sidal BS/SD, Generic Hero 114: En/En (Bl), Loganne Claws/WP (Sc)
One question I have now is: how many taunt enhancements do I have to put in Taunt itself now to hold the attention of an AV that's likely to appear on a team I'm likely to be on (say, a +2 or +3 level AV)?
By my understanding, Taunt enhancements make taunt last longer. The duration of taunt is a factor of a number of things, including the level and boss status of the tauntee. AVs presumably shake off Taunt sooner than regular bosses.
I have never made a tauntless Tanker. I have also never put slots into Taunt for any tanker; I put one taunt duration enhancer in it and use my slots elsewhere. Never had a real problem with the recharge time on Taunt. I have put taunt enhancers in other places, mostly in aura powers, and Heraclea has a taunt enhancer in Foot Stomp. These enhancers apparently have no effect on AVs now.
So my question is, given this is the case, how many taunt or recharge enhancers does it take to keep a +3 AV taunted until Taunt recharges?
The tanker that would be really hurt by this is my stone tanker, of course: odds are if an AV is involved she will be in Granite and subject to a recharge penalty. This seems to explain why my fire tanker was doing better at tanking AVs than she was.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Tanker Taunt at level 50 lasts 41 seconds (increases with player level) vs. even-level NPCs (10.25 seconds vs. players, increases with level). As far as I know, most AVs don't have any innate resistance to taunt, so you should be getting the full duration out of it. Against a +1 foe, it becomes 36.9 seconds base. Against +2 is 32.8 seconds. Against +3 is 26.65 seconds. Against +4 is 19.68 seconds.
Inherent Taunt powers for a level 50 Tanker last 13.5 seconds (increases with player level) against regular NPCs. Against players, the duration is 6 seconds at all levels, and has a % chance of occuring, which is usually equal to the Damage Scale of the power divided by 10.
It seems to me that a simple solution to this issue would be to add AVs/GMs to the player target version of Inherent Taunt effects, so that the tanker has a set % chance of taunting with melee attacks.
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Multiply the numbers by the base AT mods and you will have very simular numbers. The dmg by the Tanker however is slower not lower due to the powers having longer recharge and heftier end recharge. What the Tanker loses in speed he gains in the ability to take a shot that would 1 shot all but the most sturdy Scrappers. The less likely to die bit does give them a home on an AV team because they don't have to be baby sat by the Conts/Defs as much.
The big issue is our inherent should work to some degree not be completely be ignored so that a Tanker that wants to go full out "Heavy Assault Scrapper" on an AV or GM will have most of it's attention so it looks for alternate targets a lot less.
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Well, given that we agree that the tanker inherent should work against an AV, there's not really any point to me side-tracking the discussion by addressing your Scrapper vs. Tanker example. Suffice it to say that no examples of Tankers out-damaging Scrappers you could give me would convince me as a team-builder to choose a tauntless Tanker over a Scrapper if I felt we were lacking damage in the team make-up, now that we know Tanker gauntlet is not affecting the AV.
Adecdotal insert:
I've fought a few giant monsters lately with my tank, and had no trouble keeping agro without taunt.
It's a rather difficult situation to test, so I can't say why my experiences have been different, but there it is. I only used taunt when the GM turned to attack a squishy fire tank 
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I just rechecked this. It looks like Brute taunt auras (invincibility, mud pots) are exempt from this restriction. The inherent taunt of those powers apparently is set to work on all NPCs, but the Tanker equivalents do not.
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Well, I hope your "source" works both ways and gets that problem to a Dev.
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Indirectly, it did.
No comments on the gauntlet issue at the moment -- but I am reading the threads and taking notes.
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And that does not mean we are asking for Brutes to be brought down as well. Balance does not mean knock everyone into the gutter.
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight