Gauntlet and Taunt Auras don't work on AVs anymore
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2006-10-15 21:38 in Tankers
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It seems to me that a simple solution to this issue would be to add AVs/GMs to the player target version of Inherent Taunt effects, so that the tanker has a set % chance of taunting with melee attacks.
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/signed. This seems like a good compromise.
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Also, that ratio would require Tankers to continuously attack the AV to hold aggro. Interesting.
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
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It seems to me that a simple solution to this issue would be to add AVs/GMs to the player target version of Inherent Taunt effects, so that the tanker has a set % chance of taunting with melee attacks.
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Totally agree, I was thinking the same thing.
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I've had a confirmation.
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Re: Gauntlet doesn't work anymore on (some?) AVs
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It has been this way for a loooooong time, it's nothing new. Certain levels of enemies are simply too smart to fall for the old "I hit you, so now you hate me" level of taunt.
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That was Positron, right? Weird, because it sounds like Statesman's kind of response. Anyway, I think we know that whoever posted that is for the change.
To whoever said that: it doesn't matter that it's been that way for a long time. We weren't told about it, and we've been trying to figure out what the heck has been going on with our aggro control for a loooooong time, it's nothing new.
The only reason it took me so long to figure out is that I deleted my level 50 Tanker when I5 came out to make her a Brute in anticipation of side-switching. I only just recently started fighting AVs with my new Tanker, which I made when I found out that Brutes wouldn't be able to be heroes any time soon, if ever. Meanwhile, my SG has two active tankers in it other than myself-- one doesn't have Taunt, but just returned to the game after the GvE free weekend (the Tanker in the Neuron and Anti-Matter demos), and the other spends 95% of his time either roleplaying or playing his villain.
I think the Devs think that the fact that we didn't figure this out sooner means that it must be fine. I don't think we didn't figure it out sooner because it's fine, I think we didn't because most of us do have Taunt, and fire it off when we see we don't have aggro, and those who don't have been in situations that kept them from noticing it.
I have to ask: Why didn't the Tauntless tankers like Gideon and Panzerkatze notice this earlier? Are you folks playing other ATs? Not fighting AVs? Teaming with Tankers that do have Taunt? Teaming with groups where you are dealing the most damage? Did you just come back to the game recently?
I'm not trying to attack you guys or anything. I honestly thought this immediately after that Burkholder fight when I tried tanking him without Taunt: how did the people who were vocal supporters of not taking Taunt miss the fact that they couldn't hold aggro on AVs?
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Also, I want to point out that while there are often disagreements about the "we will never do X" statements that may or may not have been made in the past, one that definitely was made after the reduction to Smoke Grenade (when people claimed that Cryptic said they'd never "nerf") was that they would never stealth nerf.
This isn't a missed patch note. We've got two developer responses posted in the thread so far, one public, one a PM, neither of which has claimed any surprise that we didn't know about it until now.
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I have to ask: Why didn't the Tauntless tankers like Gideon and Panzerkatze notice this earlier? Are you folks playing other ATs? Not fighting AVs? Teaming with Tankers that do have Taunt? Teaming with groups where you are dealing the most damage? Did you just come back to the game recently?
I'm not trying to attack you guys or anything. I honestly thought this immediately after that Burkholder fight when I tried tanking him without Taunt: how did the people who were vocal supporters of not taking Taunt miss the fact that they couldn't hold aggro on AVs?
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Well I only have one tanker these days with taunt and that's my Invulnerability/Battle Axe. I've not played him since I reactivated at I7, since I expect all the energy damage AVs to tear him a new one, and I'd rather just have my memories. My fire tankers I consider too squishy to even play anymore, much less fight AVs. Then there's my icer who's not made it up to the AV range yet. As of this, he probably won't.
Too many alts to list.
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one that definitely was made after the reduction to Smoke Grenade (when people claimed that Cryptic said they'd never "nerf") was that they would never stealth nerf.
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the quote I see thrown around is "our nerfing days are over." It was too long ago to still be on the forums, but I recall something slightly less definite and a bit more open to interpretation.
Generally, intentional stealth nerfs were in response to exploits (ha!) and the like.
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Poster: Liquid
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I have to ask: Why didn't the Tauntless tankers like Gideon and Panzerkatze notice this earlier? Are you folks playing other ATs? Not fighting AVs? Teaming with Tankers that do have Taunt? Teaming with groups where you are dealing the most damage? Did you just come back to the game recently?
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I've been playing alts mainly but i have been called in to smash AVs. Since I generally dish out dmg on par with the Blasters and Scrappers. They don't trump my aggro very often. 
(Virtue/Champion) Neil Fracas: Inv/SS
(Virtue) Gideon Fontaine: MA/SR (Sc), Generic Hero 114: Ice/Cold, Marcus Tyler AR/En, Project F: Spines/DA (S)
(Champion) Jenna Sidal BS/SD, Generic Hero 114: En/En (Bl), Loganne Claws/WP (Sc)
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Poster: Liquid
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I have to ask: Why didn't the Tauntless tankers like Gideon and Panzerkatze notice this earlier? Are you folks playing other ATs? Not fighting AVs? Teaming with Tankers that do have Taunt? Teaming with groups where you are dealing the most damage? Did you just come back to the game recently?
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I've been playing alts mainly but i have been called in to smash AVs. Since I generally dish out dmg on par with the Blasters and Scrappers. They don't trump my aggro very often.
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Problem is, that's only possible for energy melee. Other tanker secondaries would be surpassed by blasters and scrappers.
Too many alts to list.
I didn't notice because Tanks are dead to me.
I did okay trick-or-treating today. I was able to stand in melee range with Eochais and Jacks, and keep my team alive while spamming a few powers.
Oh, that was my D3. Nevermind.
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In case anyone doesn't remember, here is one example from back in June where people were noticing odd aggro issues that they were having trouble figuring out:
Trouble managing aggro since i7?
I was going to bump it, but I figured that was rude.
Anyway, my point is, yeah, this has been around a long time, but we've been noticing problems for a long time too.
From the blaster thread that was linked:
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The only Tank I have found that can hold aggro from me is an Ice tank.
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I'm betting that Ice Tank had Taunt and the others didn't or weren't using it.
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Poster: docbuzzard
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Poster: Gideon "Heavy Assault Scrapper" F
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I've been playing alts mainly but i have been called in to smash AVs. Since I generally dish out dmg on par with the Blasters and Scrappers. They don't trump my aggro very often.
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Problem is, that's only possible for energy melee. Other tanker secondaries would be surpassed by blasters and scrappers.
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Nope the main one I bring out for AV smashing is my Inv/SS. With Perma Rage you can out dmg or come close to the Blaster/Scrapper damage barring the cooling off periods.
Though my Inv/EM is a beast as well.
(Virtue/Champion) Neil Fracas: Inv/SS
(Virtue) Gideon Fontaine: MA/SR (Sc), Generic Hero 114: Ice/Cold, Marcus Tyler AR/En, Project F: Spines/DA (S)
(Champion) Jenna Sidal BS/SD, Generic Hero 114: En/En (Bl), Loganne Claws/WP (Sc)
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Poster: docbuzzard
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Poster: Gideon "Heavy Assault Scrapper" F
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I've been playing alts mainly but i have been called in to smash AVs. Since I generally dish out dmg on par with the Blasters and Scrappers. They don't trump my aggro very often.
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Problem is, that's only possible for energy melee. Other tanker secondaries would be surpassed by blasters and scrappers.
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Nope the main one I bring out for AV smashing is my Inv/SS. With Perma Rage you can out dmg or come close to the Blaster/Scrapper damage barring the cooling off periods.
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Huh. I'm Inv/SS and I run perma-rage, and I sure can't, and neither can my two Inv/SS tanker sgmates. At least, I assume we can't, because we can't hold aggro without Taunt anymore.
Are you slotted with 3 damage 3 recharge, and/or are you using hasten, by any chance? Because I don't have hasten, nor do I have more than one recharge per attack.
Also, my DM/Regen had no problem taking Nightstar's aggro from one of my SS Tanker friends the other night.
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Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
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Poster: Liquid
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Huh. I'm Inv/SS and I run perma-rage, and I sure can't, and neither can my two Inv/SS tanker sgmates. At least, I assume we can't, because we can't hold aggro without Taunt anymore.
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Are you slotted with 3 damage 3 recharge, and/or are you using hasten, by any chance? Because I don't have hasten, nor do I have more than one recharge per attack.
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Also, my DM/Regen had no problem taking Nightstar's aggro from one of my SS Tanker friends the other night.
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My attacks are slotted for 3 dmg with 2 rech and 1 end. My Rage has 3 to hits to get extra acc. When I need to tank I have on Inv as well. I can let loose a non stop chain of attacks consisting of AS/Punch/Hay/KoB/Stomp.
Possibly the non stop attacks that are hitting for 280% of base dmg and the pulsing of the aggro aura are combining to make it harder to rip aggro away.
Could be a bit of luck as well that all the times I draw aggro with attacks and the aggro aura that I lucked onto what the AV hated at the moment he launches an attack by pure attrition.
(Virtue/Champion) Neil Fracas: Inv/SS
(Virtue) Gideon Fontaine: MA/SR (Sc), Generic Hero 114: Ice/Cold, Marcus Tyler AR/En, Project F: Spines/DA (S)
(Champion) Jenna Sidal BS/SD, Generic Hero 114: En/En (Bl), Loganne Claws/WP (Sc)
The aggro aura shouldn't make a difference as AVs are explicitly immune to it.
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The aggro aura shouldn't make a difference as AVs are explicitly immune to it.
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Has that been confirmed? I saw that AVs are immune to Gauntlet but have they confirmed that they are immune to things like Invinc as well?
To be immune to Gauntlet is one thing to be immune to Invinc as well is far worse.
[EDIT: Self-censor rest of post to prevent me being banned]
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Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
Tanker taunt auras use the same mechanic as the inherent taunt in melee attacks, which check the target's rank to determine whether or not to apply the taunt effect. Currently, the taunt effects of Brute auras work on all NPCs, but the Tanker versions have the same restrictions as Tanker/Brute melee powers.
Given that Taunt auras aren't sudposed to work and Punch-Voke has little to no effect (leaning towards none) that must mean that I'm trumping the dmg output of Scrappers and Blasters I've teamed with then.
I really wish there would be an official stance on what the Tankers role in AV battles is. As it stands now the tankers role is "Take the alpha and spam taunt".
I get a feeling that Taunt-bot role is "working as intended" because a tanker doing nothing but spamming taunt seems to be part of the devs balance as shown by us being unable to hit moving targets for 3-5 months.
(Virtue/Champion) Neil Fracas: Inv/SS
(Virtue) Gideon Fontaine: MA/SR (Sc), Generic Hero 114: Ice/Cold, Marcus Tyler AR/En, Project F: Spines/DA (S)
(Champion) Jenna Sidal BS/SD, Generic Hero 114: En/En (Bl), Loganne Claws/WP (Sc)
Sorry if I missed this: do Provoke and Challenge work on AVs?
I am thinking of going with the pool on a new toon to get to the AoE fear power for theme reasons.
They should work fine, as they are Taunts. The problem is that gauntlet doesn't work, not the taunt mechanic itself.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
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"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Sorry if I missed this: do Provoke and Challenge work on AVs?
I am thinking of going with the pool on a new toon to get to the AoE fear power for theme reasons.
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They do but they require a to hit, so the slotting is different. You would need an Acc or two to make them work.
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
::Reply to OP::
You know, in the past I have advocated getting rid of the 'gauntlet' inheirent, because I didn't feel the game agro shouldn't be decided in that manner. Tanks do less damage and are harder to kill- noone should try to eliminate them first- makes no sense.
But, I felt that way in hopes that the dev team would go further and rethink the AT and provide a better gaming experience.
This is still my hope. However, lately, I'm feeling this is not part of a grand design at all.
Just more tinkering. *shrug*
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Tanks do less damage and are harder to kill- noone should try to eliminate them first- makes no sense.
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every game that has someone that's supposed to take the brunt of the damage, those characters have a hard time doing it without unusually artificial means (i.e., powers that do nothing but increaes agro/hate/taunt). A "comic book tank" would be the target cuz he'd be the only one in the villain's face
I don't have a problem with the concept of gauntlet, just in its implementation. Enemies feeling threatened by a seismic smash, total focus, or knockout blow seems appropriate. Jab, on the other hand...
Few things Ive seen in this thread and tanking the last few days.
EM can come close to or outperform scrappers damage wise. Super Strength can as well. Not every tank is SS. Not every tank is EM. They do not want to be.
If you stick with the arguement that a tank can still contribute to the AV team without having taunt because they can do alot of damage, you are talking about two sets. Mace, Axe, Stone melee, Ice melee, Firey Melee are still out there and people enjoy playing those sets. They will be discriminated against. People want to see those sets have taunt. Super Strength and EM will be exempt. That does not seem fair to me.
No, AV's in missions aren't that common. However, they are a large part of tanking and "end game" content. Should a tank have to take a certain power if he wants to be considered a 'real' tank and be able to consistently be teamed in PI?
I like the idea of punchvoke working like it does in pvp, it is better than nothing and it might actually encourage people to slot for taunt, but with one exception. Playing a brute and being beaten on by a tank, the powers that Ive seen more or less consisently taunt are what? Energy transfer. Followed by the 9.8889's: Total focus, Seismic Smash, Knockout blow. Other attacks seem to have negligable chance to taunt and low duration when they do. See first, second and third thoughts again.
From my experience fighting AV's, the change in their AI in i7, where they pick a target and stick with it until dead, I think contributes alot to people not seeing problems. If the tank goes in first, picks up aggro before anyone else, the AV target rules indicate the AV should stay on that tank until they can kill it.
Finally, my random encounter with Eochai in steel canyon last night, I was on a 49 /em tank, a group of level 12-18 characters, all 'squishy' classes, were trying to fight Eochai. They invited me to help, I joined their team and opened up. The only time Eochai would look at me was right after I hit him with total focus+energy transfer, and that was only for a moment, then he would go back to pounding on a blaster or controller.
It looks like I will have to burn my last power to get taunt, because I hate to see people get killed on my watch. Even though there are 5 powers from my primary, secondary and 5 pools that I could put to good use. Even though every other power, slot and level it was placed has been set in stone since before I rolled the character.
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It seems to me that a simple solution to this issue would be to add AVs/GMs to the player target version of Inherent Taunt effects, so that the tanker has a set % chance of taunting with melee attacks.
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/signed. This seems like a good compromise.