Gauntlet and Taunt Auras don't work on AVs anymore
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2006-10-15 21:38 in Tankers
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Poster: KaliMagdalene
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Speaking of which, Gideon, which pool attacks do your tankers have?
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Neil has AS and Eyebeams if the epic pool counts. Some builds have Jumpkick cause it amuses me but I've been getting CJ.
Mr Fontaine has no pool attacks cept Fireball and Fireblast from the epic.
(Virtue/Champion) Neil Fracas: Inv/SS
(Virtue) Gideon Fontaine: MA/SR (Sc), Generic Hero 114: Ice/Cold, Marcus Tyler AR/En, Project F: Spines/DA (S)
(Champion) Jenna Sidal BS/SD, Generic Hero 114: En/En (Bl), Loganne Claws/WP (Sc)
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A new twist to add to this thread, which explains the results seen by Dersk against Eochai: the inherent taunt of Pool Powers (Air Superiority, Kick, etc.) works on all critters for tankers. Brutes do not get any inherent taunt from these powers.
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Well, ain't that interesting?
Hopefully once all this Issue 8 craziness is over with, they can look at all the issues with aggro not too long after. It seems like (if this information is true) some changes were made haphazardly and others just left incomplete.
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Luckily for me my method of aggro control is an extremely violent beatdown of the AV so they don't care as much about Blasters and Scrappers
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And uh... Air Superiority. You did say Neil had it, and that he was the one you brought out for the AV fights.
Gideon, I'm totally not trying to put you down or anything. Just trying to get to the bottom of the difference between your experience and mine. Air Superiority having a taunt effect would be it, as our builds are apparently very similar otherwise.
So, iakona, what about the Epic Pools? If Epic Pools still have it too, then we've solved another problem: Tankers stealing Hamidon aggro from the Taunter, when using an epic power (and probably in combination with a pool attack).
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New T-Shirt 
http://www.arscoh.com/v/Gideon+Fonta...f+MeT.jpg.html
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Make that of Statesman laying in a pool of his own blood and Id pay $50 bucks for it
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So, iakona, what about the Epic Pools? If Epic Pools still have it too, then we've solved another problem: Tankers stealing Hamidon aggro from the Taunter, when using an epic power (and probably in combination with a pool attack).
[/ QUOTE ]Tanker Epic Pool attacks all have inherent taunt that works on all critters.
On a related note, all Brute Patron Power attacks (and Mastermind Web Envelope) have an inherent taunt effect, but it is subject to the same restrictions as Brute Primary powers.
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So, iakona, what about the Epic Pools? If Epic Pools still have it too, then we've solved another problem: Tankers stealing Hamidon aggro from the Taunter, when using an epic power (and probably in combination with a pool attack).
[/ QUOTE ]Tanker Epic Pool attacks all have inherent taunt that works on all critters.
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Bingo. You reading this Quatermain?
Thanks, iakona!
P.S. Sorry Gideon, you have taunt effects on both Tankers. You may not be holding aggro for the reasons you think. Hopefully this means you won't get nerfed. 
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Well, my Tri-Icer turned 49 today and I took Taunt. Was wanting BoI but you gotta do what you gotta do 
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Well, my Tri-Icer turned 49 today and I took Taunt. Was wanting BoI but you gotta do what you gotta do
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going by what others are saying, block of ice would probably taunt av's. You should still be able to be tauntless if you wish.
I'm not sure if tank folks heard, but the AVs are displaying massive resistance to nearly all debuffs during their "up arrows" cycle. They seem to blow off [u]everybody's[u] stuff while the Purple Triangles of Doom are going their way (except fo the sainted Rad set). I would guess they now get taunt resistance during the up arrows the same way they ignore attempts to mez them. You can probably taunt them just fine during the down arrows - if they aren't held at the time :P.
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I would guess they now get taunt resistance during the up arrows the same way they ignore attempts to mez them. You can probably taunt them just fine during the down arrows - if they aren't held at the time :P.
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I've never had any experience that suggests this is the case. I have never had an AV fail to attack me after I use the power taunt.
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I'm not sure if tank folks heard, but the AVs are displaying massive resistance to nearly all debuffs during their "up arrows" cycle. They seem to blow off [u]everybody's[u] stuff while the Purple Triangles of Doom are going their way (except fo the sainted Rad set). I would guess they now get taunt resistance during the up arrows the same way they ignore attempts to mez them. You can probably taunt them just fine during the down arrows - if they aren't held at the time :P.
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Citation, please.
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Most AVs have no inherent protection against Taunt (Statesman, Synapse, Captain Mako, and Lord Recluse are exceptions). The purple triangles have no effect on taunt.
Debuff resistance on AVs is always active, regardless of the direction the triangles are pointing.
That's what I'm saying - People on the Dom, and I believe Corrupter boards have been discussing that at some point in the not too distant past the PToD gained an additional characteristic of fluctuating debuff resistance - while they are "up arrow" they are shrugging off all kinds of stuff, not just mez. I don't know if that extends to taunts, I'm just suggesting that it would acount for some "my taunt isn't working" behavior some people here are experiencing.
It's a little chaotic over there in the aftermath of the Domination change/buff, but I'll try to track down the specific comments about this. Again, I don't know that taunt is or isn't affected, I'm just mentioning it because it sounds like the symptoms match.
Taunt isn't affected, at least in my experience, by the purple triangles. Gauntlet on the other hand is never working, regardless of purple triangles. Granted I haven't tested anything out specifically, but if I don't use taunt, regardless of the way triangles are pointing I can't get aggro.
As to how I feel on this subject. It is sad that a tank is boiled down to one power, that anyone can match with some slotting and a single power pool pick or in a scrappers case a single power choice and slots aren't even necessary. In the case of using it on an AV, with slotting Challenge, and the scrapper equivalent without slots, does as well as Provoke because people rarely face multiple AV's at once, and both do as well as taunt for holding aggro but taunt doesn't need slots to do it, as it is auto hit.
I don't think this can be said for any other AT, that in the case of AV's a pool power can allow any AT to do the job.
Granted there is the survivability of tanks that could be said to be our job, but with the need for buffing/debuffing/healing for most tanks to survive an encounter with an AV most other AT's will also be able to survive and we are back to the point of our job being done by a pool power and a few slots.
Fixing gauntlet would allow us to be the best at holding aggro, which is debatable as a necessary or useful thing on a good team these days.
Why not have at least one of our attacks have a single target Taunt effect that works on AV's and GM's? For example something like Jab, Scorch, Frozen Fists, Barrage, Gash, Bash, and Stone Fist since they have quick recharges and can be woven in some attack chains.
Mainly I am suggesting this because I am a little skeptical that all the attacks would be given such an ability, as many of us might want.
What I want to know is: What difference does it make, aggro-wise vs. AVs, whether or not gauntlet works if all tankers end up taking taunt to AV fights? The end result is the same - AVs are aggro-locked on the tanker.
Of course, the real problems here are so thoroughly enshrined in the AT and power design, that making it fully workable in CoH is probably out of the question.
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Well I do hope they really rethink the Gauntlet situation. Most of us really didn't know about AV's and GM's not really caring about it, heck I have AS on both my tankers and my Brute, but not Taunt, and I couldn't tell.
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Are we Taunt-bots (active aggro controllers)?
Are we Gauntlet-machines (passive aggro controllers)?
Are we damage sponges (absorb alpha)?
Are we melee controllers (control mobs and manage aggro through controls)?
Are we Scrankers?
Are we a mixture?
Which of those should be emphasized? Which should be de-emphasized? Should any be completely taken out? Should something be added?
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Well, I love my Tanks and part of what I love is that we can be all those things. Does it makes things more confusing for some people? Probably. But I like the ability to build my Tanks so that they can perform different roles.
Just looking at the Tanks in my signature (I have many others), they are designed for different reasons and perform different roles. Their roles (simplified):
Lil' Mama is the Taunt-bot
Matushka is the damage sponge
Skaoi is the melee controller/Gauntlet-machine
Ax'n Jaxn is a Skranker
The ability to make my Tanks so they fill different roles is part of what I like.
That being said, I am not happy about Gauntlet/taunt auras having no effect on AV's anymore. If they wanted to limit it's effectiveness somehow, either through the triangles that controllers face or by making them partially resistant, then I would be less bothered by it.
But to simple make Gauntlet and taunt auras useless vs AV's and GM's? Especially as a stealth nerf? Not a good idea......
Mama
1) The pool powers that have taunt are obvious bugs, they most likely missed them while "fixing" them for AV fights.
2) Dont get too attached to taunt, this whole thing makes no sense if they are to leave taunt as is. I predict taunt will suffer changes too. Most likely direct taunt powers were not nerfed because then they would be entirely useless in AV fights and that would be bad. At least they can claim normal attacks still do damage, but what would they do with Taunt? I predict Taunt triggering AV Taunt suppression to prevent perma-taunt in the future.
3) The role of the tanker is similar to the role of the defender: he is there to keep the team save and do damage. The tanker does much more damage than the defender and has the bonus of being extremely survivable, so he should obviously not be as good at keeping the team safe as the defender.
4) The tanker is meant to keep the team safe mainly with the use of his own body and melee power. This does not necessarily means keeping aggro, although its the main way the tanker can keep the team alive as the game stands now.
I personally am very exited to see what the devs will do next. This MAY finally get the tanker rid of the Aggro Holding Bot role and into a more exiting play style, then again, it may just nerf us and leave us worse than we already are.
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I personally am very exited to see what the devs will do next. This MAY finally get the tanker rid of the Aggro Holding Bot role and into a more exiting play style, then again, it may just nerf us and leave us worse than we already are.
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If they make more changes like those revealed in this thread without giving Tankers some other kind of protective abilities (like a reverse bodyguard), I predict that Tankers will be as useful in AV fights as Dominators are.
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I agree, but given the way the devs [must?] work chances are we will see another GDN-ED-DefFix series of patches (where we wont see the buff until months after the nerf chain) where we see Gauntlet nerfed in an issue (unknown to us since they never told us,) Threat nerfed in the next one (we did were told about that one,) Taunt nerfed perhaps in Issue 8 or bit afterwards, and tankers given love in Issue 9.
As for reverse bodyguard, it would not work just as is, extra damage mitigation would be needed for us to survive a share of the team mate's unmitigated damage, off course, I do have an idea that may work perfectly for that, and will be posting on it Soon (tm), even if its just for educational purposes.
My fix for Tankers is roughly similar in concept as my fix for Blasters. Fix certain powers in each set.
For example the INV passives and the -DEF in UY, increase the healing value for Healing Flames, put knockback protection in Plasma Shield, give Burn a ratio on it's fear effect (a compromise between two Cryptic positions), get rid of Hibernation and ROTP for a real tier 9 defense, give Clobber the damage that Cleave can do, replace Frozen Aura with Ice Sword Circle, for example. And of course do something about the current AV/GM Taunt situation.
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I personally am very exited to see what the devs will do next. This MAY finally get the tanker rid of the Aggro Holding Bot role and into a more exiting play style, then again, it may just nerf us and leave us worse than we already are.
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If they make more changes like those revealed in this thread without giving Tankers some other kind of protective abilities (like a reverse bodyguard), I predict that Tankers will be as useful in AV fights as Dominators are.
P.S. Welcome back!
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Further, it will remove any rational opposition to the idea that debuff-oriented controllers and defenders are absolutely required for AV/GM fights, and no one would ever take a tanker over a scrapper.
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A new twist to add to this thread, which explains the results seen by Dersk against Eochai: the inherent taunt of Pool Powers (Air Superiority, Kick, etc.) works on all critters for tankers. Brutes do not get any inherent taunt from these powers.
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That, good sir, is absolutely hilarious.
So, Tankers, let it be known, you really don't /have/ to take Taunt. Just skip your secondary and be Power Pool Man. I'm sure that's the better choice.
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Heh, I think I will try that on test when the veteran respecs come out. Just Jab and every Power Pool attack I can fit onto the character.
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I have seen a tank with every pool power and every attack power from the secondary. I will never team with him again...
I told him he might aughta take a primary power, well, at least more than the base and dull pain and TI. Or... roll a scrapper.
Ice Ember