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No, see, comic book tanks are big machines that the military employs to shoot supervillians ineffectively.
The term "Tank" is not a comic book TERM. I get a little tired of people complaining about "comic book tanks" being different from CoH tanks. Comics don't classify their heroes in archetypes. It's the players of CoH, that equate the concept of a "tank" with your Juggernauts and your Supermen.
A "Tank", my friend, is an MMO term for someone that protects their team by standing in the way of any attacks that happen to come along.
Personally, I wish they'd just give scrappers a super strength set and give people that want to play what they -THINK- a tank is have a way to actually -do- it, then they could stop complaining about the fact that "their AT" doesn't do what they want it to do. 
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You win the intarweb prize for arguing pointless semantics. Clever way to completely miss or try to divert the point.
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I'm not missing or diverting anything. Call it a tangent if you will. I believe there are issues with the way aggro is working right now, sure, but the point of this thread is that people are suggesting gauntlet is useless, and certain people, inevitably, try to turn that into an "I don't like what the tank's role is" thread, and their conclusions are -always- based around -their- misconception of what a tanker is.
The fact is that these people aren't playing the AT they want to be playing. They're playing the AT they -think- they want to be playing, because they're associating the name with something it's not.
People that complain about Tankers being a meat shield -want- to be playing scrappers, or maybe brutes. What they don't get is that the AT isn't a description of fighting style or appearence. A scrapper can be an 8 foot all "huge" model just as well as a scrawny little MA scrapper, but people associate, incorrectly, the tank with agressive, damage dealing characters, when the role of the tank is to be the wall that protects the team. That's a -gameplay- role, not a comic role. And -that- is why it's important to recognize that these people are misinterpreting the origin of the term "tanker". And while it's hard to single them out, there are some characters in comics that ascribe to this role more then they ascribe to the agressive role.
The fact of the matter is, a lot of the people in this thread weren't here before I3, and they don't remember what tanking used to be like. If you didn't take provoke, and spam nothing but taunt powers, you were in large part a gimped scrapper. When they added the gathering of effects that would later be collectively referred to as "gauntlet", they made a big change in making tanking a more active, agressive process. Gauntlet changed the way tanks -played-.
It made them significantly -closer- to what people think of when they think of "comic book tanks". Somebody that comes in and starts smashing stuff and draws a lot of attention.
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How about saying you THINK they are not playing the AT they think they are playing.
I am sure I am playing the AT I want to play, and I know I am associating it with the same thing the devs themselves associated the AT with in the comic book world.
No one here is complaining about being a meat shield (well some people do but thats the minority), the reason people complain about Gauntlet being useless is because it IS useless.
By definition, brutes do not have gauntlet, yet every attack they land can taunt. So by definition you can take Gauntlet way and we still will be able to keep agro with a combination of AoE attacks and taunt auras, and easily get the agro cap.
So yes, Gauntlet is useless because we can easily get to the agro cap without it, not to mention as a meat shield role it does not work. At high levels the game is plagued with AoE attacks, and being able to taunt means nothing because the AoE will still harm your team mates and kill them often, unless they have support that on itself make the tanker redundant.
I was here since Issue one. I know what gauntlet did and it didnt do what you say. It just allowed us to herd and thats it. As it stands, go back in time to Issue 1 and 2 and we would be able to keep the agro cap under control just as fine as we do now, actually, better, even if we had to take a pool power.
And reinforcement: you keep missing the point because I never mentioned wanting damage anywhere. I dont frigin care about damage and I (plus every single granite tanker in this game) will happily trade in damage for a more meat shield like experience, although even then I doubt thats the way to go and boosting secondary effects (we already have) would be a much better approach.
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Part of the problem is there is a lot of confusion on what Gauntlet is. My understanding is that the AOE powers mentioned above, Auras, the Taunt Power, temp powers are *not* using Gauntlet at all. Only some single target attacks use gauntlet. Gauntlet is a *small* aoe taunt bubble around a single target when you hit the target and your power is one that makes use of it.
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Gauntlet is a generic name for a variety of powers which all include an inherent 'Taunt' effect. The text says "Each time the Tanker attacks, he enrages the target, and those around him, enticing them to attack the Tanker."
So, what is an attack?
* Any of your Melee Powers which damage a target, and many that simply apply a Status Effect. Single Target attacks are limited to 5 critters effected per attack. PBAoE's such as Whirling Mace are limited to the number of critters that take damage -- in this case, up to 10 critters.
* Any 'Aura' powers you may have, such as Icicles or Invincibility.
Note that there is no distinction between Primary and Secondary powersets, Epic Powersets or Pool Powers? These all have Gauntlet on them, to one extent or another (Pool Powers version is limited to 1 target, and only the direct attacks have it.)
If you are dealing with +3's or higher, it may be worthwhile to slot a Taunt enhancer or two into the powers you are using. They *do* help.
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Here's my problem: Gauntlet has NOTHING to do/enhance our Primary, which is DEFENSE. A tanker has a DEFENSE primary, not an Argo primary. We are the only AT who's inherint does NOT enhance our PRIMARIES!
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Gauntlet is highly useful. It means we don't /need/ taunt, as it shores up and works alongside our other taunting abilities to thoroughly ensure that we can maintain a hold on Aggro.
This leaves us with an ability to choose different powers. I like that. It also means we can do our "Perceived Duty", which is to Tank.
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Part of the problem is there is a lot of confusion on what Gauntlet is. My understanding is that the AOE powers mentioned above, Auras, the Taunt Power, temp powers are *not* using Gauntlet at all. Only some single target attacks use gauntlet. Gauntlet is a *small* aoe taunt bubble around a single target when you hit the target and your power is one that makes use of it.
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Gauntlet is a generic name for a variety of powers which all include an inherent 'Taunt' effect. The text says "Each time the Tanker attacks, he enrages the target, and those around him, enticing them to attack the Tanker."
So, what is an attack?
* Any of your Melee Powers which damage a target, and many that simply apply a Status Effect. Single Target attacks are limited to 5 critters effected per attack. PBAoE's such as Whirling Mace are limited to the number of critters that take damage -- in this case, up to 10 critters.
* Any 'Aura' powers you may have, such as Icicles or Invincibility.
Note that there is no distinction between Primary and Secondary powersets, Epic Powersets or Pool Powers? These all have Gauntlet on them, to one extent or another (Pool Powers version is limited to 1 target, and only the direct attacks have it.)
If you are dealing with +3's or higher, it may be worthwhile to slot a Taunt enhancer or two into the powers you are using. They *do* help.
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Here's my problem: Gauntlet has NOTHING to do/enhance our Primary, which is DEFENSE. A tanker has a DEFENSE primary, not an Argo primary. We are the only AT who's inherint does NOT enhance our PRIMARIES!
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Even if gauntlet is ok, this is so true.....
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Part of the problem is there is a lot of confusion on what Gauntlet is. My understanding is that the AOE powers mentioned above, Auras, the Taunt Power, temp powers are *not* using Gauntlet at all. Only some single target attacks use gauntlet. Gauntlet is a *small* aoe taunt bubble around a single target when you hit the target and your power is one that makes use of it.
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Gauntlet is a generic name for a variety of powers which all include an inherent 'Taunt' effect. The text says "Each time the Tanker attacks, he enrages the target, and those around him, enticing them to attack the Tanker."
So, what is an attack?
* Any of your Melee Powers which damage a target, and many that simply apply a Status Effect. Single Target attacks are limited to 5 critters effected per attack. PBAoE's such as Whirling Mace are limited to the number of critters that take damage -- in this case, up to 10 critters.
* Any 'Aura' powers you may have, such as Icicles or Invincibility.
Note that there is no distinction between Primary and Secondary powersets, Epic Powersets or Pool Powers? These all have Gauntlet on them, to one extent or another (Pool Powers version is limited to 1 target, and only the direct attacks have it.)
If you are dealing with +3's or higher, it may be worthwhile to slot a Taunt enhancer or two into the powers you are using. They *do* help.
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Here's my problem: Gauntlet has NOTHING to do/enhance our Primary, which is DEFENSE. A tanker has a DEFENSE primary, not an Argo primary. We are the only AT who's inherint does NOT enhance our PRIMARIES!
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Even if gauntlet is ok, this is so true.....
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Even if it is true its not really an argument, inherents are not really there to boost your primaries directly. BUT Gauntlet is there with the intention of helping you to use your primary in battle so in that sense the inherent is fine. It just is not needed taking into account brutes can do it just as fine.
Acctually, it is there so tankers can use their secondaries. To use your primaries you just need taunt or provoke.
Taunt or provoke on their own wont get you all the agro you want to actually use that primary. You need your attacks' taunt (specialy the AoE attacks) for this. Im not saying you need the AoE taunt on every hit (altough it helps a bit) as i myself stated already all you need is a taunt aura and a single AoE attack.
Gauntlet in no way helps you use your secondary, but it does is a reward for using your secondary, in a way. Just like Supremacy, the mastermind inherent, gives their pets a buff as a reward for the mastermind risking his skin in the middle of agro range, and blasters get rewarded with Defiance for taking damge, something they would normaly at all costs avoid. Kheledian's inherent gives random buffs that in no direct way enhance their roles, they simply get rewarded for teaming with others and so on and so on.
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Taunt or provoke on their own wont get you all the agro you want to actually use that primary. You need your attacks' taunt (specialy the AoE attacks) for this. Im not saying you need the AoE taunt on every hit (altough it helps a bit) as i myself stated already all you need is a taunt aura and a single AoE attack.
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Taunt or provoke can, even slowly, get all the argo you can handle. Four taunts, at different groups, will put me over the limit. I can use the aura power of my primary to keep them there. Gaunlet helps will all but Invul in that case.
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Gauntlet in no way helps you use your secondary, but it does is a reward for using your secondary, in a way. Just like Supremacy, the mastermind inherent, gives their pets a buff as a reward for the mastermind risking his skin in the middle of agro range, and blasters get rewarded with Defiance for taking damge, something they would normaly at all costs avoid. Kheledian's inherent gives random buffs that in no direct way enhance their roles, they simply get rewarded for teaming with others and so on and so on.
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You need to go back to what Gauntlet was made for, which was to give tankers the appearence of doing their job by being a threat ( i.e. using their secondaries to do damage). In this case, for players that want to use it, it is successful. I can jump around and gather and hold argo by wacking mobs. As an Invul/* I can also just taunt/provoke and do the same thing without Gauntlet.
Gauntlet just changes the way I do my job but does not make it better. I like Gauntlet because I hate taunt/provoke and all it stands for.
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Taunt or provoke can, even slowly, get all the argo you can handle. Four taunts, at different groups, will put me over the limit. I can use the aura power of my primary to keep them there. Gaunlet helps will all but Invul in that case.
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1) not unless you heavily slot them for recharge, even then maybe nto likely. Turn off auras and only use that single 5 target taunt power and try to keep 17 mobs agroed on you.
2) you just broke your own statement by mentioning the aura
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You need to go back to what Gauntlet was made for, which was to give tankers the appearence of doing their job by being a threat ( i.e. using their secondaries to do damage). In this case, for players that want to use it, it is successful. I can jump around and gather and hold argo by wacking mobs. As an Invul/* I can also just taunt/provoke and do the same thing without Gauntlet.
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It was made for:
1) help tanks keep agro without going to pool powers
2) give tankers the option of holding agro without needing to spam provoke
Before this every attack the tanker tossed meant he stoped spamming provoke (that was usualy 3 sloted for recharges and 3 for duration... yikes)
Anyways the point is Gauntlet IS designed for you to be able to use your primary to soak damage, in that its working as designed, its just overkill since you already can reach the taunt cap easily without it.
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I bet you if the Devs take away Gauntlet but still leave the Gauntlet icon on...no one would be able to tell that it's gone.
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Any tankers who played the game before Gauntlet was introduced would definitely notice.
Same way they been noticing that those pool powers (air sup and Punch or Kick) they keept on their attack chain dont really get affected by it? Or you mean the rare cases where they dont notice how Epic Pool powers ranged attacks dont do it either? Because rarely do people notice this, heck, some even dispute these powers ARE doing it while they are definitively not.
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Taunt or provoke can, even slowly, get all the argo you can handle. Four taunts, at different groups, will put me over the limit. I can use the aura power of my primary to keep them there. Gaunlet helps will all but Invul in that case.
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1) not unless you heavily slot them for recharge, even then maybe nto likely.
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THat is my choice of slotting now isn't it? you are saying that it is wrong to 3 slot for recharge and 3 slot for taunt? And it is very likely. Test it on the Test server sometime.
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Turn off auras and only use that single 5 target taunt power and try to keep 17 mobs agroed on you.
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Since taunt is a AOE that gets 5 at a time and, as an Invul/* I have an aura with taunt from day 1, no problem.
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2) you just broke your own statement by mentioning the aura
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Since I qualified it as Invul/* I have invalidated nothing. I said Gaunlet helps to keep them their for everyone but Invul/* You can still spam taunt to hold them their as well.
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You need to go back to what Gauntlet was made for, which was to give tankers the appearence of doing their job by being a threat ( i.e. using their secondaries to do damage). In this case, for players that want to use it, it is successful. I can jump around and gather and hold argo by wacking mobs. As an Invul/* I can also just taunt/provoke and do the same thing without Gauntlet.
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It was made for:
1) help tanks keep agro without going to pool powers
2) give tankers the option of holding agro without needing to spam provoke
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Actually, no. Changing the Taunt power to AOE was the answer to #1. Not part of Gauntlet.
#2. Tankers always had the option of using their secondaries since a tanker's damage had a higher "hate" factor than anyone elses. Did it work? Not even close and was single target as all damage auras did not have the incerased "hate" in them. Gauntlet is the AOE effect of punchvoke.
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Before this every attack the tanker tossed meant he stoped spamming provoke (that was usualy 3 sloted for recharges and 3 for duration... yikes)
Anyways the point is Gauntlet IS designed for you to be able to use your primary to soak damage, in that its working as designed, its just overkill since you already can reach the taunt cap easily without it.
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And I have pointed out that your statement is untrue. I do not need gauntlet to hold argo. Is it fun? No but I do not NEED gauntlet to hold argo. If I play a taunt-bot, espically an Invul/*, I will gain no benifit from Gauntlet
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THat is my choice of slotting now isn't it? you are saying that it is wrong to 3 slot for recharge and 3 slot for taunt? And it is very likely. Test it on the Test server sometime.
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1) have tested it (provoke actually works better if you do plan to do this as it hits 10 targets, just also add accuracy there somehow)
2) with taunt it was not something manegable
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And I have pointed out that your statement is untrue. I do not need gauntlet to hold argo. Is it fun? No but I do not NEED gauntlet to hold argo. If I play a taunt-bot, espically an Invul/*, I will gain no benifit from Gauntlet
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I honestly hate saying this but since i know how i hate it to be told to anyone but did you actually read what i posted? did you read this you just quoted:
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Anyways the point is Gauntlet IS designed for you to be able to use your primary to soak damage, in that its working as designed, its just overkill since you already can reach the taunt cap easily without it.
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And back in the day, where people wanted to get a lot of agro and herd and it was viewed "ok", in that day all the changes that were done to agro was to stop over reliance on pool power provoke. The taunt made into aoe was one but the attacks each taunting endless enemies also allowed you to go without it without having to spam anything.
there is an issue here where there should be a separation between agro limitations on an individual and a bad guys ability to attack another player.
Like this: if a tanker could pull 100 bad guys that would be ok but those bad guys could have the ability to attack other players.
So Maybe a tank could make as big of a herd as he/she would like But could only keep "X" number of bad guys from attacking team mates or other random players at any given time. Now in the mean time that original 100 bad guys are still hanging around because of the original agro. (more or Less) I realize that this would take some figuring on a programmers part but it seems to me that this path of reasoning while writing the program would solve these issues.
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Is the only AT with access to it?
No (see Brutes)
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Brutes don't really have gauntlet. Brutes can place taunt enhancements into their attack powers, whereas every time tank hits something, it sends out a mini-taunt aura that can taunt any nearby enemy. Yes, that's even with single-target attacks. The range of the taunt aura is supposed to increase with level and per the damage of the attack.
They never should have named the AT, Tank. The name we always used for the big overly-muscled guy who could take damage and dish it out in melee is Brick. IE... He hits like a ton of bricks. Hitting him was like hitting a brick wall. ETC....
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They never should have named the AT, Tank.
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You're assuming that the name followed the AT design; I think the opposite is true -- that they defined the need for an AT that could "tank" (as the verb) and designed the class to do this as well as possible without being unbalanced compared to the other ATs.
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I'd like to point out that the CoH inherent powers all kinda suck, esp. when compared to CoV.
Blasters should critical.
Scrappers should have defiance.
Tanks should get a very dubbed down fury.
Defenders shound get a form of scourge.
Controllers damage should simply be increased across the board (tripple on primaries only where primaries that don't do dmg get reworked to do dmg).
I think the defender inherit is just fine. On a team I never have to worry about my endurance. I can spam my powers all day. It is only useful in a team setting ( unlike scrapper, blaster and Controllers).
the problem is the inherents for heros were an afterthought the villians are built around them
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the problem is the inherents for heros were an afterthought the villians are built around them
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Yes, they were also built to circumvent ED.
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I think the defender inherit is just fine. On a team I never have to worry about my endurance. I can spam my powers all day. It is only useful in a team setting ( unlike scrapper, blaster and Controllers).
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I understand but I find that my defenders all have a way to mitigate End drain be it Stamina, RA or AM or whatever so End was never a big issue for me or my defenders. Since bubbles and sonics don't need additional End at rough times, it also not useful for them and I feel it's very unfair in addition to not being useful. 
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I absolutely rely on gauntlet and my aggro-auras to maintain aggro, and I've never had any complaints. I haven't had taunt in my build since about I4. I have fought AVs, large spawns, +3s and +4s, and GMs without losing aggro to my teammates.
You can indeed rely on it, without problem.
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I wanted to chime in and say I see the exact opposite with regards to AVs. I have Ice Aura with 2 taunts in it.....and a supposed Gauntlet.....and I can not maintain aggro throughout an AV fight. Its better when I mix in Taunt too but sheesh talk about a wasted inherent power. I'm slamming the AV with punches and AV is in my Aura and it still turns and attacks the scrapper next to me or the other toons around.
As an agro wall he does not, as a knock back, hold, hindering andplain out wall between the team and the enemy, he DOES.
And no i really dont think of scrappers or brutes every time in any situation i see superman or the thing. I tend to relate more characters like The Black Panther or Wolverine while looking at scrappers, altough i admit, i can only think of one brute-like thing out there (The Hulk.)
Hmm.. it actually would be interesting if part of that bug that allowed all tank attacks to hit multiple targets to come back.. powers like Knockout blow always doing knockup (not hold) to the 5 taunted enemies for example...