Hrm, Gauntlet
Does it support the tanks role (that role being aggro management, not damage output)?
Yes.
Does it require the tank to be near death to use?
No.
Does it require other teammates to be near death to use?
No.
Does it require constant micromanagement to use?
No.
Does it perform within the stated description?
Yes.
Is it useful solo?
No.
Is it a hindrance solo?
No.
Does it require the tank to actively participate in order to gain it's benefits?
Yes.
Does it burn endurance?
No.
Can it be altered by the player to enhance it's effectiveness?
Yes.
Does the use of gauntlet change the risk vs reward scheme?
No.
Sounds like it was well designed to me.
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson
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I think some scrappers didnt had any critical attack powers, and the ones that did ony had one power that was able to critical. At the time, it was the way a 7.11 BI attack ended up doing similar to a tanker 9 BI attack without letting them do one shots left and right, they did it only to not allow the attacks to do too much front load damage. So with or without icon, you cant really say that was an inherent of the AT, it was an inherent aspect of the power itself (and these powers used to be only the very last ones so many scrappers never got far enough to even see it)
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Was that in Beta? Because I can remember my lowbie katana Scrapper doing crits in Galaxy City, pre-I1.
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We all had crits, but it didn't used to pop up with a big obvious CRITICAL! when we got one. People who didn't watch the numbers carefully could miss them easily and some didn't even notice them.
Jason Heavensrun
Swift : Freedom Server
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com/CheckmateStudios
Check out my first Architect Arc, "Bring Up the Sun", arc #339507, and let me know what you think!
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Hrm, Gauntlet
Does it support the tanks role (that role being aggro management, not damage output)?
Yes.
Does it require the tank to be near death to use?
No.
Does it require other teammates to be near death to use?
No.
Does it require constant micromanagement to use?
No.
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Actually, sometimes it does.
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Does it perform within the stated description?
Yes.
Is it useful solo?
No.
Is it a hindrance solo?
No.
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It can be. It's possible to get more aggro than you want, particularly at low levels, due to Gauntlet.
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Does it require the tank to actively participate in order to gain it's benefits?
Yes.
Does it burn endurance?
No.
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It does, in the sense that you must attack to use it.
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Can it be altered by the player to enhance it's effectiveness?
Yes.
Does the use of gauntlet change the risk vs reward scheme?
No.
Sounds like it was well designed to me.
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You're right. It WAS well designed. Unfortunately, they changed the design of the Tank subsequently, making it less of a glorious fit.
Personally, I find Gauntlet completely uncomic-booky, and dislike that it uses the overly-simplistic taunt mechanics.
Of course, I also think being an aggro manager is an appalling way for the Thing and Colossus analogues of the game to spend their time. I mean, really, imagine ol' Ben Grimm saying, "It's clobberin' time!" and then spending his time dealing out a few weakass punches and taunting...
I won't say that it's a perfect fit for everyone, or that everyone should like it. But I do believe that it does what it's supposed to do, when it's supposed to do it. Comics aside(not dismissively mind you), the role of the tank in CoH is an aggro controller. Gauntlet supports that role, and it does it quite well, with no real weighted disadvantages to the tank or the team. The mechanics of gauntlet I find faultless. Hit mob, aggro mob. Lead into a spawn, aggro spawn. Hit a few, and you've got their attention so the team can do it's thing.
It may not be suited for certain peoples playstyle, or people may find it unpalatable, but that holds true for each inherent.
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson
I dont know, with the recent problems of keeping aggro, it just seems to last for a few seconds. I want something that gives +Resistance or +Defense the closer to death. Sure, I hate the whole "closer to death" thing too, but think, It lets the tank take a lot of dmg, and aggro without dying as easy. Useless to Granite tanks, lol, but good for like AVs.
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Wait, then this means the tanker is the only AT that actually had a true inherent from day one, and it just got bumped up a bit with issue 3? (was that issue 3?)!!
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Nope, Scrappers had Critical Hits from the beginning.
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Sorry, this is not true. Nobody had an inherent from day one.
I2 I believe.
SuperSolar-Fire/SS H.A.C.S. -Virtue
Capt. Solar-Inv/Fire Tank-Liberty
PowerStrike-Fire/Mace Tank-Virtue
Mighty Marvel-PeaceBringer-Virtue
Power X -Claws/Fire Scrapper-Virtue
I kind of do think it changes the risk vs reward. I have now PO'd 16 mobs and they all attack me, but I don't have the ability to withstand that kind of damage with INV.
I go down, the rest of the party goes down. Sounds like the White House!
How many times does that happen? 
Heres one suggestion to make gauntlet better...Make it a toggle! When I used to have HURL with my ice/ss tank and I wanted to pull one target I used to be able to pre gauntlet. Now I agro the whole mob :P I can take it but sometimes especialy when you are badge hunting or helping with a mission you only want one enemy at a time...Just my 2 cents
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Wait, then this means the tanker is the only AT that actually had a true inherent from day one, and it just got bumped up a bit with issue 3? (was that issue 3?)!!
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Nope, Scrappers had Critical Hits from the beginning. Tauntlet was added, and Tanker Taunt was made AoE downstream due to complaints that Tankers (previously) had to take the Presence pool in order to hold aggro well. (Tanker Taunt was originally single-target like Scrapper Taunt).
Containment was thrown in to address sucky Controller damage, and Defiance and Vigilance to, er, tantalize and frustrate the other two ATs.
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No, scrappers DID NOT have critical hits in the form of an inherent from the begining. Most definately not. I think katana's final power had a small chance, and maybe broadsword. they were specials tacked onto 2 maybe 3 powers total.
crits were added to all scrapper attacks with higher chances of crits vs lieuts, and even higher vs bosses to reinforce scrappers as the "boss killer" AT in teams.
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Then if I use a PBAoE, say fire sword circle, I can effect an additional 10 or the melee enduced gauntlet swtiches to PBAoE induced?
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correct. if you use FSC, gauntlet can affect up to 10, but is also limited to the foes damaged.
what might require some clarification from the Devs is - how does gauntlet determine who it affects? the wording i've seen used "up to 5" has always made it settle in my mind as not automatic, i.e. if you damage a foe, you aren't guaranteed a gauntlet taunt on them. however, i've been doing some searching and so far i can't find anywhere its explicitly stated.
certainly from personal experience, it seems like i've damaged foes and not automatically obtained aggro, so i assume gauntlet only has a chance of affecting the foe you hit and up to 5 nearby. if so, what is that chance based on? is it a "to hit" roll? is success improved by ACC enhancements in the attack? are the conditions of the chance the same for all 5 foes?
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The taunt cap is at 17 as of right now correct?
What if I have a group of 15 around my tank, and then use the power "Taunt" at some ranged enemies to mitigate damage from a teammate does that taunt only effect 2 of them, or does the taunt I have on the 15 in melee range get negated?
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its a fine point, but i believe the _AGGRO_ cap is 17. its important because you can get aggro by other means, i.e. "hate". in the example you cite, you should aggro only two of the newly engaged foes. i imagine there is the possibility that you lose aggro on some of the original 15 coincidentally with firing off taunt and thus can aggro more at range but lose some close by. but that would require your "taunt" on the nearby foes to expire and one of your teammates inducing enough "hate" to take aggro away from you.
i believe aggro can last pretty long. in fact, it usually seems somebody else needs to take aggro away from you in order for you to lose it even over pretty long periods of time. it might be important if, as tanks, there's a chance we can aggro a significant number of foes and somehow get separated from them, only to find our ability to "taunt" severely limited in the next spawn because there's reserved aggro sitting somwhere behind us.
Gauntlet was very useful in PvE, but with some of the recent changes it's now broken. When a Tanker hits a mob while running Invincibility at the *same time*, the mob shouldn't turn on a Blaster who hits that mob with a moderate damage attack.
I had that happen multiple times when I played my Tanker last week and tested it in a mission. The mobs are constantly turning on the Blasters *and* attacking them on a regular basis completely ignoring my efforts. The mobs were +0/+1 and I have a Taunt slotted in Invinvibilty.
As it stands now, my Tanker can't do his job. I can't protect my team anymore.
SA
@Griffyn
"40 characters is my limit... okay, 50... 50 is my limit... okay, 60... 60 is my limit... okay, 70..."
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I won't say that it's a perfect fit for everyone, or that everyone should like it. But I do believe that it does what it's supposed to do, when it's supposed to do it. Comics aside(not dismissively mind you), the role of the tank in CoH is an aggro controller. Gauntlet supports that role, and it does it quite well, with no real weighted disadvantages to the tank or the team. The mechanics of gauntlet I find faultless. Hit mob, aggro mob. Lead into a spawn, aggro spawn. Hit a few, and you've got their attention so the team can do it's thing.
It may not be suited for certain peoples playstyle, or people may find it unpalatable, but that holds true for each inherent.
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Well, aside from the fact that, as you say, it's a good mechanic "comics aside", I would disagree that it's good based on a few key issues:
1. It doesn't make "sense" for enemies to ignore higher-damaging opponents simply because one arbitrarily has more threat.
2. The underlying taunt mechanic is far too simplistic. Well, binary is more accurate. This, however, is a fault of the entire status effect system, so I can't say that it's something wrong with Gauntlet itself.
You know what comic book tanks actually do? they knockout the enemy, they hold him, grab him, stop him toss him, knock him back, etc etc, so the enemy cant get to their squishier allies. They disable minnions and annoy the big bad ones enough to make sure he does not want to turn his back.
In other words: They are melee controllers that cant hold bosses and are very hard to control and kill themselves
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Of course, I also think being an aggro manager is an appalling way for the Thing and Colossus analogues of the game to spend their time. I mean, really, imagine ol' Ben Grimm saying, "It's clobberin' time!" and then spending his time dealing out a few weakass punches and taunting...
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If you put it this way, yeah, tanks role is pathetic
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You know what comic book tanks actually do? they knockout the enemy, they hold him, grab him, stop him toss him, knock him back, etc etc, so the enemy cant get to their squishier allies. They disable minnions and annoy the big bad ones enough to make sure he does not want to turn his back.
In other words: They are melee controllers that cant hold bosses and are very hard to control and kill themselves
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No, see, comic book tanks are big machines that the military employs to shoot supervillians ineffectively.
The term "Tank" is not a comic book TERM. I get a little tired of people complaining about "comic book tanks" being different from CoH tanks. Comics don't classify their heroes in archetypes. It's the players of CoH, that equate the concept of a "tank" with your Juggernauts and your Supermen.
A "Tank", my friend, is an MMO term for someone that protects their team by standing in the way of any attacks that happen to come along.
Personally, I wish they'd just give scrappers a super strength set and give people that want to play what they -THINK- a tank is have a way to actually -do- it, then they could stop complaining about the fact that "their AT" doesn't do what they want it to do.
Jason Heavensrun
Swift : Freedom Server
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com/CheckmateStudios
Check out my first Architect Arc, "Bring Up the Sun", arc #339507, and let me know what you think!
Call it whatever you want, meatshield, brick, tank, tanker, whatever, truth is, the tanker IS based arround characters like Superman, the Thing and the Hulk, and these characters behave in the most part (but not always) as I specified.
Adding super strenght to scrappers solves nothing because this is not about damage or being super strong.
Yes, it is not a comic book term, but it IS a label that was set based on actuall comic book characters.
Heck even the offensive sets that were created originaly ONLY for tankers are charged with control abilities as the one i listed above (only exception being fire.)
Guantlet seems to be broken right now. Up until a bit after I6, I held aggro just fine without ever resorting to taunt. Now I'm back to throwing taunt around like crazy and sometimes THAT doesn't work.
No, something is wonky with aggro in general right now, not just gauntlet.
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
I agree, we're supposed to be able to taunt 15 but with my paoe aggro (invinc) running and Taunt as part of my attack chain, I still lose some foes. Now, if it's just one, no biggie I can taunt them back, but if it's two or more in slightly different directions, I've lost aggro and an occasional teammate life.
Seems like an easier solution would be the keep the active paeo taunt "pulse" radius wider and more frequent.
CoH exists because there's a little hero in all of us.
Ridolfo 50 DM DA.
& far too many alts
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You know what comic book tanks actually do? they knockout the enemy, they hold him, grab him, stop him toss him, knock him back, etc etc, so the enemy cant get to their squishier allies. They disable minnions and annoy the big bad ones enough to make sure he does not want to turn his back.
In other words: They are melee controllers that cant hold bosses and are very hard to control and kill themselves
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No, see, comic book tanks are big machines that the military employs to shoot supervillians ineffectively.
The term "Tank" is not a comic book TERM. I get a little tired of people complaining about "comic book tanks" being different from CoH tanks. Comics don't classify their heroes in archetypes. It's the players of CoH, that equate the concept of a "tank" with your Juggernauts and your Supermen.
A "Tank", my friend, is an MMO term for someone that protects their team by standing in the way of any attacks that happen to come along.
Personally, I wish they'd just give scrappers a super strength set and give people that want to play what they -THINK- a tank is have a way to actually -do- it, then they could stop complaining about the fact that "their AT" doesn't do what they want it to do.
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You win the intarweb prize for arguing pointless semantics. Clever way to completely miss or try to divert the point.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Guantlet seems to be broken right now. Up until a bit after I6, I held aggro just fine without ever resorting to taunt. Now I'm back to throwing taunt around like crazy and sometimes THAT doesn't work.
No, something is wonky with aggro in general right now, not just gauntlet.
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I'll have to agree... I've noticed I'm able to keep my core little bunching of baddies around my tank, but have a lot more running around than I ever did before. The most I noticed a problem was duoing with a friend earlier. He was an Invuln/ tank and I was a Sonic/Sonic defender, and he couldn't hold aggro on anything from my weak little blasts... He spent most of his time trying to save me because every time I hit something he had aggro on it would turn to take me out.
Victory: @Brimstone Bruce
Brimstone Bruce (lvl50 Stone/Fire Tanker) Broadside Bruce (lvl50 Shield/WM Tanker)
Ultionis (lvl50 Dark/Dark Defender) Cortex Crusher (lvl50 Mind/Kin Controller)
Patronox (lvl50 Kat/Dark Scrapper) Harbinger Mk.7 (lvl50 Bots/FF MM)
NightShift for Life.
In conversation with my brother, I heard the most plausible explanation.
When they put in the top limit of 15 taunted, some bug got into the code.
My brother says that his aggro problems are at their worse in a long spate of furious battle, but, if he is given a minute or two between fights, that he's back to normal. His guess is that there is something wrong with how the program is resetting the taunt cap, so, when we try to taunt something, the program thinks we're already at cap and refuses to work.
And Heavensrun is right. The CoH tank is not, never has been, nor will it ever be an equivalent to the classic comic book strong-character, aka (thanks to Champions) the Brick.
The comic book Brick has a combination of intense offensive power and nigh untoppable defenses that are balanced by a variety of limits that have little to no effect on the gameplay of City of Heroes. The classic Brick is too thoroughly unbalanced when one considers the gameplay limits set by the game. Thus, there will never be a true equivalent to them outside of NPCs such as Infernal.
Tanker is a really misnamed AT...it should have been named Guardian or "Defender" or something like that. As for Defender...that name doesn't cover the variety it has, but no name really could. Defender, despite being rather useful, is still something of an after thought AT.
He is also right that Super Strength should be given to scrappers.
Of course, I have long been in favor of crossing over similar power sets to all ATs (melees, defenses, ranged, buff/debuffs, etc) and that there are too many ATs at the moment.
Scrappers and Tankers will always be stepping on each others' toes as long as the game goes on. When (and I say this with a fervant hope) WHEN it becomes possible to switch villains to heroes and such, then Brutes will be doing the same and, to a much lesser extent due to the variance in their powers, so will Stalkers.
Defenders are a hodge-podge AT that has no unified purpose. Which is NOT knocking defenders, defenders have saved my keister many, many times, but look at the ATs, for a moment:
Blasters, hit things at range
Controllers, control and support
Tankers and Scrappers, hit things up close
Defenders...well, some buff, some heal, some debuff, some control, they hit things kinda too....
The hodge podge nature of Defender is the reason that their inherent is so sucky. An inherent that is equally useful for such a diverse arrangement of sets is difficult to come by.
They really would have done much better with just basic: ranged, melee, support...and then allowed the player to define for themselves what they did with that...
Fewer ATs with more powersets, would have made more variety and still been difficult to gimp yourself. Virtually an impossible change at this stage of things though.
The closest we're likely to get is for them to slowly start translating various power sets over to other ATs...
for example, battle axe or energy melee scrapper, Psychic blaster, Assault rifle defender, etc...heck, I'd even be happy to see defender get Dominator-esque assaults instead of pure ranged...a good defender is usually in the middle of things anyway and a good tank will hold aggro (assuming it starts working again)
we've already seen them translate claws, katana, martial arts, spines and dark into Stalker sets....certainly they could convert super strength into a scrapper set, or Regen into a tanker set (would need a taunt-aura though)
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
Can you tell me where on my post on how to make tankers FEEL like comic book equivalents i even hinted at more damage? Because i KNOW that wont happen, yet you can have tankers FEEL like the equivalent by boosting the secondary effects of all current sets (and adding some to fire.)
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Can you tell me where on my post on how to make tankers FEEL like comic book equivalents i even hinted at more damage? Because i KNOW that wont happen, yet you can have tankers FEEL like the equivalent by boosting the secondary effects of all current sets (and adding some to fire.)
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The main problem is the tank as the agro wall does not realy have a comic book feel, granted we can all think of comic book charicters who hold off a mob while the others attack but when you think about any "tank" you think of can also be a scrapper or a brute....
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PBAoE's such as Whirling Mace are limited to the number of critters that take damage -- in this case, up to 10 critters.
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So if you miss everyone of them you taunt nothing?? I think there should be a min of at least 5.
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He said limited to 10, not taunt only the ones you hit. He didn't say anything about having a drastically different effect. It just caps at 10 instead of 5. That was what I got out of it.
(Castle could you clairify please)
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No he said up to 10. He also daid the number of critters that take damage...meaning if you miss there's no taunt.
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Well, yeah. ;p If you were in a fight and a guy swung at 10 people and couldn't hit -one- of them, would -you- regard him as a threat? ;p
(edited a typo! Whee!)
Jason Heavensrun
Swift : Freedom Server
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com/CheckmateStudios
Check out my first Architect Arc, "Bring Up the Sun", arc #339507, and let me know what you think!