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Wait, then this means the tanker is the only AT that actually had a true inherent from day one, and it just got bumped up a bit with issue 3? (was that issue 3?)!!
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Nope, Scrappers had Critical Hits from the beginning. Tauntlet was added, and Tanker Taunt was made AoE downstream due to complaints that Tankers (previously) had to take the Presence pool in order to hold aggro well. (Tanker Taunt was originally single-target like Scrapper Taunt).
Containment was thrown in to address sucky Controller damage, and Defiance and Vigilance to, er, tantalize and frustrate the other two ATs.
"Destiny's powerful hand has made the bed of my future, and it's up to me to lie in it. I am destined to be a superhero. To right wrongs, and to pound two-fisted justice into the hearts of evildoers everywhere." -- The Tick
Just chuck a Taunt Duration or two on Icicles, Chilling Embrace, Invincibility, Blazing Aura, or Mud Pots and you're good to go. Invuln is the set that this sucks for, as your ag aura isn't til way later than the rest.
I don't even bother using Taunt to keep aggro anymore, the auras and AoE attacks do that fine. Taunt's more for picking up strays now, and since I'm not having to use it as much, I get to swing a lot more.
"I'm flying free with my beautiful butterfly wings!" ~ Randy Marsh
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My problem with Gauntlet goes something like this:
I recently make a Fire/SS Tank. I did plan to take Taunt, but not until the late 20s, figuring I'd get by with Gauntlet until then.
In order to provide for my defenses (to allow me to survive the aggro I was hoping to get), I only had Jab, Boxing, Haymaker as my attacks. Even when I hit consistently, I noticed that enemies would yo-yo back and forth between me and my teammates (small teams). The Gauntlet-provided taunt duration seemed to be very short, as enemies very quickly turned back to whoever they were attacking.
It got to the point where I was so dissatisfied with it that I ended up changing around my plans and taking Taunt at 16. Now I can actually tank, because it is a reliable power that keeps enemies attacking me for a significant amount of time.
So my questions would be:
1) Is Gauntlet only suitable if you slot Taunt duration in it?
2) If so, why do we have to slot our powers for our inherent, while others don't?
And while I'm at it... if the base duration of Gauntlet/taunt is so short for low-damage powers, what good would taunt enhancements do? Increasing a tiny number by a small percentage still results in a tiny number.
Good gaming!
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If you want to just use gauntlet for your argo then you need to slot taunt enhancements in your powers. Without the taunt enhancements it is very weak. Yes you lose something for this so you have to decide if you solo more then don't add them or team more so you can lose the damage for the argo control.
I currently recommend putting 2 taunts in any aura power that you will be running. In Invincibility, it really holds the mobs close once you can reel them in.
I'm not a fan of taunt but it has it uses for pulling and saving squishies.
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Wait, then this means the tanker is the only AT that actually had a true inherent from day one, and it just got bumped up a bit with issue 3? (was that issue 3?)!!
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Tanker attacks didn't Taunt at release (at least I don't think they did), but it was added early on.
According to Zloth's history it happened for Issue 3:
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The Taunting powers were changed. Before, tanks and some scrappers had a taunt power that would taunt one and only one enemy. The tanks' version auto-hit. To really do any crowd control, however, they needed to get the Provoke power from the Presence power pool. Tanks noted that it was pretty silly to make them take a power pool to be able to do their crowd control. The devs agreed and changed the powers around. Tanks' Taunt power was made AoE and was still auto-hit. Scrapper's Taunt was changed to Confront, a single target taunt and I think it's auto-hit. Also, every single tank attack power was given a minor AoE taunting effect (commonly called punchvoke now).
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Very true. Tanker attacks had "more weight" at the beginning (read increased hate for you WoW/EQ folks) but blaster/scrapper damage just blew right through it so tankers had to resort to a power pool or single target taunt. The screams to do away with provoke-bots and to have a more active way of getting argo let to punchvoke.
The official strategy guide came out with the game and stated all attacks had a mag 4 taunt associated with them. I was also being a bit sarcastic on how "no wonder it works badly, it was part of the flawed initial design"
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Nope, Scrappers had Critical Hits from the beginning.
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Nop. That I am 100% sure is not so. Few (VERY few) powers had a chance to critical, but thats very far from being an hinherent ability of the AT. The inherent critical chance was added much later (at this time they just gave all powerst hat were already able to crit a higher chance to do so)
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The official strategy guide came out with the game and stated all attacks had a mag 4 taunt associated with them. I was also being a bit sarcastic on how "no wonder it works badly, it was part of the flawed initial design"
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Correct - all tanker attacks would taunt a mob if you hit them. What wasn't present at release was the ability to slot for that effect.
Likewise, the Taunt power was auto-hit, but single target only. Provoke required a to-hit roll, but it was AOE. This let to many tankers take Provoke, and complaining that the Pool power was much better than their power. That finally got changed.
Part of the intent behind the "punchvoke" was to reward the tanker for active play, not merely spamming taunt and provoke.
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Nope, Scrappers had Critical Hits from the beginning.
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Nop. That I am 100% sure is not so. Few (VERY few) powers had a chance to critical, but thats very far from being an hinherent ability of the AT. The inherent critical chance was added much later (at this time they just gave all powerst hat were already able to crit a higher chance to do so)
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Bingo!
-- War
Actually, I'd say that just the reverse is true. With just my attacks and invincibility, my level 42 Inv/SS tank doesn't even have taunt... and finds little need for it.
My general method of starting combat is by jumping in the middle of a fairly large group of badguys and foot-stomping, gaining as much aggro (if not more) than I could have hoped for with just taunt. I then proceed to start beating down badguys and watching for leakers.
If a large enough group of leakers looks to be targeting squishies, I move to the center and either single-target gauntlet (or if foot-stomp is recharged, just stomp.)
It works fairly well, which is lucky as I don't have any free power choices.
(My tank is probably the most min-maxed character I have with every primary power and every secondary barring taunt and handclap.)
Still here, even after all this time!
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Nop. That I am 100% sure is not so. Few (VERY few) powers had a chance to critical, but thats very far from being an hinherent ability of the AT. The inherent critical chance was added much later (at this time they just gave all powerst hat were already able to crit a higher chance to do so)
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It wasn't originally an "inherent power" with an icon and everything, you are correct. However, as you said, Scrapper attacks always had a chance to critical. This has been tweaked and reconstituted quite a bit since the beginning, but the concept of "Scrappers can do critical hits" was always in the game in some form, and has always been exclusive to Scrappers.
"Destiny's powerful hand has made the bed of my future, and it's up to me to lie in it. I am destined to be a superhero. To right wrongs, and to pound two-fisted justice into the hearts of evildoers everywhere." -- The Tick
Haven't read all the posts here, but I agree. Especially for PvP purposes. Don't get me wrong, many tankers are devastating PvPers, but look at the other PvP sets, at least in terms of dueling (I'm excluding defenders because I don't quite have enough knowledge about its inherent):
Scrappers: Criticals make or break a duel. Criticals are heavily relied upon to finish off other scrappers and tankers.
Blasters: Defiance also makes or breaks a duel. It's near impossible for certain blaster sets to kill certain tank/scrapper sets without milking Defiance effectively. Not to mention the fact that a Blaster can nearly one-shot a squishy opponent if the Blaster is, for example, held down to almost no HP and then becomes unheld.
Controller: Dueling controllers rely on Containment (which is even more unbalanced, IMO, than the abovementioned inherents) to deal the necessary damage to kill opponents, especially with mez suppression disabling perma-holds.
Whether it's dueling or team battles, tankers' inherents are a non-factor, period. There needs to be some compensation. Perhaps an inherent mag-3 mez protection? Or an inherent mez protection that scales up to 3 in magnitude by the time the tank hits 50?
I think some scrappers didnt had any critical attack powers, and the ones that did ony had one power that was able to critical. At the time, it was the way a 7.11 BI attack ended up doing similar to a tanker 9 BI attack without letting them do one shots left and right, they did it only to not allow the attacks to do too much front load damage. So with or without icon, you cant really say that was an inherent of the AT, it was an inherent aspect of the power itself (and these powers used to be only the very last ones so many scrappers never got far enough to even see it)
As for provoke, at first it WAS auto hit, it was nerfed in or bit before Issue 2 so it required a to hit roll.
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As for provoke, at first it WAS auto hit, it was nerfed in or bit before Issue 2 so it required a to hit roll.
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THAT'S right - that was the real big complaint about it from us - that a pool taunt power would auto-hit like our primary taunt power, but was AOE.
It's interesting to look back at the evolution of my tank from the early days through today. Pre-Invince, post-Invince, perma-Unstoppable, post-GDN and now post-ED. I'm just hoping one day there will be a post-passive buff entry too.
-- War
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I think some scrappers didnt had any critical attack powers, and the ones that did ony had one power that was able to critical. At the time, it was the way a 7.11 BI attack ended up doing similar to a tanker 9 BI attack without letting them do one shots left and right, they did it only to not allow the attacks to do too much front load damage. So with or without icon, you cant really say that was an inherent of the AT, it was an inherent aspect of the power itself (and these powers used to be only the very last ones so many scrappers never got far enough to even see it)
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Was that in Beta? Because I can remember my lowbie katana Scrapper doing crits in Galaxy City, pre-I1.
"Destiny's powerful hand has made the bed of my future, and it's up to me to lie in it. I am destined to be a superhero. To right wrongs, and to pound two-fisted justice into the hearts of evildoers everywhere." -- The Tick
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Gauntlet is a generic name for a variety of powers which all include an inherent 'Taunt' effect. The text says "Each time the Tanker attacks, he enrages the target, and those around him, enticing them to attack the Tanker."
So, what is an attack?
* Any of your Melee Powers which damage a target, and many that simply apply a Status Effect. Single Target attacks are limited to 5 critters effected per attack. PBAoE's such as Whirling Mace are limited to the number of critters that take damage -- in this case, up to 10 critters.
* Any 'Aura' powers you may have, such as Icicles or Invincibility.
Note that there is no distinction between Primary and Secondary powersets, Epic Powersets or Pool Powers? These all have Gauntlet on them, to one extent or another (Pool Powers version is limited to 1 target, and only the direct attacks have it.)
If you are dealing with +3's or higher, it may be worthwhile to slot a Taunt enhancer or two into the powers you are using. They *do* help.
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Between this and what Circeus has posted, I think I understand what Gauntlet is, but doesn't it seem a little more complicated design than it needs to be?
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
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Between this and what Circeus has posted, I think I understand what Gauntlet is, but doesn't it seem a little more complicated design than it needs to be?
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Isn't 90% of the game more complicated design than it needs to be?
No, I think this came with I3 or I2, that Im not certain about. There is a big chance, if you do remember the timeframe correctly, that you saw a higher level attack a lowbie with an attack that was able to critical.
It was a very big complains that blasters did so much more damage and no one truly wanting a scrapper in their team preferring blasters that they gave in and introduced critical for all powers, even pool attacks. I think there is a site around that keeps track of all the patches; if some one is as kind as to provide a link we can check the exact time frame.
And again on provoke, not only was it auto hit and AoE, it was also a much much faster animation time. I remember that was the first thing I noticed anyways, not sure if it was a big issue for other players but i used it even against single targets back in the day (back then I had both things, noob you know)
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Between this and what Circeus has posted, I think I understand what Gauntlet is, but doesn't it seem a little more complicated design than it needs to be?
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Isn't 90% of the game more complicated design than it needs to be?
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With all of the instability we have atm, I have to agree. 
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
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I was only talking about AoEs. I'm pretty sure he's talking about all of them there. Man I'm being so misunderstood today. 
I'm not talking about single target just AoEs. The way he states it is that AoEs taunt what they hit and single taunts 5 if it hits. To me that means if an AoE only hits 2 enemies then the single target was more effective. Which why in the first post I made I asked if there no less than 5 taunted on AoEs. Y'all understand me now?
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Sure. But why is this a surprise to you? Prior to the AoE change for single target Tanker Secondaries, attacks that Taunt have always only Taunted what they hit. The change never did anything to affect this.
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No it just suprises me that a single target has the potenial of grabbing more agro than an AoE. That's all.
Okay, so if I've got a group of enemies around me, and I'm attacking them with single targeted melee attacks, gauntlet is engaged. I'm focusing on one target in particular; does that mean any enemies within THAT foes melee range are effected by gauntlet as well? (up to 5 anyway)
Then if I use a PBAoE, say fire sword circle, I can effect an additional 10 or the melee enduced gauntlet swtiches to PBAoE induced?
The taunt cap is at 17 as of right now correct?
What if I have a group of 15 around my tank, and then use the power "Taunt" at some ranged enemies to mitigate damage from a teammate does that taunt only effect 2 of them, or does the taunt I have on the 15 in melee range get negated?
What would be the likeyhood of creating different classes for taunt?
Melee taunt caped at 10.
PBAoE taunt, also capped at 10.
And Ranged Taunt, likewise capped at 10?
This would increase the taunt cap, obviously, to 30, but not a cakewalk 30. You would have to be very active to maintain all 30 foes aggro.
dunno...just tryin to help, and understand how it works, so I can fullfill my role more effectivly.
Actually, the potential is higher for AoE attacks, potentially they can hit up to 10 enemies. The worse case scenario however is that it will hit only 1 while the single target one will hit 5.
However, given how the miss strife stopping code works, if you have 10 enemies around and the power properly slotted so you have exactly 90% to hit chance or more, you WILL hit at lest 5 of the enemies, period. With 16 enemy spawns you WILL hit at least 8 of them as long as the to hit chance is constant 90 or higher. In cases where this is not true, you may also miss easily the single target for zero effect.
Ok well if it's very unlikely to happen that's alright. Just wonder how much it does. I remember them saying something about you have to hit after so many swings but my search-fu just isn't there today and I also don't know if that'd include a AoE or not. According to your post it does so I will assume that.
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Okay, so if I've got a group of enemies around me, and I'm attacking them with single targeted melee attacks, gauntlet is engaged. I'm focusing on one target in particular; does that mean any enemies within THAT foes melee range are effected by gauntlet as well? (up to 5 anyway)
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Actually, I think that it is in a radius around the Tanker, not the target.
There was a short-lived bug on Test a while back where Gauntlet was inadvertently dealing real damage instead of Taunt magnitude. I jumped on and tried it before they took down that build, and I could see the Fire Sword damage being inflicted on mobs all around me, including behind me.
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Then if I use a PBAoE, say fire sword circle, I can effect an additional 10 or the melee enduced gauntlet swtiches to PBAoE induced?
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Dunno. I don't think Gauntlet would stack or modify the effect of FSC, because FSC (like all attacks, regardless of AT) has an implicit Taunt effect proportional to damage, and affects the same AoE as Gauntlet. I don't *think* that the Gauntlet taunt would cascade out...
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What if I have a group of 15 around my tank, and then use the power "Taunt" at some ranged enemies to mitigate damage from a teammate does that taunt only effect 2 of them, or does the taunt I have on the 15 in melee range get negated?
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The ranged Tanker Taunt should effect mobs as normal. I strongly doubt that it would either deal less taunt because of any previous aggro the Tanker is holding, nor release any previously Taunted/Gauntleted/aggroed enemies.
Based on my Tanker experience, the real challenge to a Tanker holding aggro is the damage and status effects being dealt by your teammates, which have strong implicit Taunts built into them.
"Destiny's powerful hand has made the bed of my future, and it's up to me to lie in it. I am destined to be a superhero. To right wrongs, and to pound two-fisted justice into the hearts of evildoers everywhere." -- The Tick
The taunt as far as i have tested is arround the target. What you saw may be explained by a very large area that went all the way behind you but centered arround the enemy.
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The taunt as far as i have tested is arround the target. What you saw may be explained by a very large area that went all the way behind you but centered arround the enemy.
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That's possible. That would imply that the effect of Gauntlet would cascade out from each hit mob in a Fire Sword Circle? Up to some capped number of targets? Also, a Tanker Fireball (from the ancillary pool) would behave like a ranged Taunt on mobs around the Fireball target?
"Destiny's powerful hand has made the bed of my future, and it's up to me to lie in it. I am destined to be a superhero. To right wrongs, and to pound two-fisted justice into the hearts of evildoers everywhere." -- The Tick
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Actually, I think that it is in a radius around the Tanker, not the target.
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Its around the target. At least it is with all the ranged attacks I've used.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Wait, then this means the tanker is the only AT that actually had a true inherent from day one, and it just got bumped up a bit with issue 3? (was that issue 3?)!!
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Tanker attacks didn't Taunt at release (at least I don't think they did), but it was added early on.
According to Zloth's history it happened for Issue 3:
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The Taunting powers were changed. Before, tanks and some scrappers had a taunt power that would taunt one and only one enemy. The tanks' version auto-hit. To really do any crowd control, however, they needed to get the Provoke power from the Presence power pool. Tanks noted that it was pretty silly to make them take a power pool to be able to do their crowd control. The devs agreed and changed the powers around. Tanks' Taunt power was made AoE and was still auto-hit. Scrapper's Taunt was changed to Confront, a single target taunt and I think it's auto-hit. Also, every single tank attack power was given a minor AoE taunting effect (commonly called punchvoke now).
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