Do dominators suck like people say they do?
By
Aleshanee_NA,
Posted on: 2006-07-05 13:59 in Dominators
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crusades
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nope, it isnt, nor is it seatbelts but i was responding to analogy, you know 'things done to us for our own good'.
oh, wait. you just wanted something to take out of context to ridicule my and invalidate my message.
my bad.
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No I'm really not dismissing your responses... except when the analogy is that overblown. Sorry but I dont agree with use of any sort of analogy that goes to a far extreme of any version of mass death, politics or religion. Agreeing or disagreeing with me, I think it's best not to bring up that kind of subject here.
So lets move on past that.
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fine. thanks for picking my overblown analogy as opposed to one of the ones i responded to from the 'fix-dom' camp.
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Your point is that it's generally best to not force people to do things they dont want to do. I can accept and agree with that, I certainly didn't want ED forced on me. The reason I see a change to grav dom's broken powers or a small boost to doms in general as a good change is that I honestly believe that more people would benefit from it than would be hurt from it. Let's say they boost your damage 15% and you end up killing mobs so fast that you find the character boring and for some reason you dont simply fight mobs a lvl higher than before. Granted your game has been hurt. But if a large majority of people now find that doms have gone from perceived as underpowered to now being perceived as just right (both from players and team mates), then it was a worthwhile sacrifice IMHO.
Same thing can be said for any specific grav power changes like for example reducing propel activation from 4 seconds down to 2 seconds. I have no doubt some people will say OMG I'm killing stuff to fast now!!! 
But most people are going to say OMG propel is a viable power again.
I think it's even quite possible that changes could be made to satisfy everyone who finds doms currently underpowered while not upsetting most of the people who find doms fine the way they are now. No body here is asking for to be uber.
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my point was to debunk faulty analogy...and thx for not including any overblown analogy/examples yourself. (end sarcastic tone). on the ED compairson, how many people liked it? yet i hear a minortiy of players campained for it (or atleast defended it's implementation). i dont wanna see history repeat itself. and MMO's are notorious for fixes that need fixes that need fixes...
it's also being argued if small boosts to things like damage, HP etc would really make a difference. and i've said in other posts just recently that individual powers getting looked at is a good thing, for every AT, not just this one.
oh, and some ARE actually calling for us to be 'uber'...
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No doubt it's time for someone to bring up the fact that I have no proof that a majority of people who try grav doms would greatly benifit from an improvment in grav dom's broken powers. True enough, but that is my opinion based on experience, forum posts, guides (see below) and people I've talked to.
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and you are entitled to it. but you seem to accept that opinion as 'fact' or 'thuth' or 'proof' which it is not. just like mine isnt...until the actual facts back it up. (and this is where someone comes in with all this anecdotal 'proof' that what you are saying is 'true' and i'm a stoopid [censored] for not seeing it...)
Your Insanity May Vary...Waybreaker is/was just what his name implys...not the pinnacle of dom knoledge, but the guy who gets the path started. he started us down the path, and for that i'm greatful...but i've learn't a thing or 2 he didn't see since then...
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If you are going to offer your services as tutor for the uninformed, you ought to at least tell us how many toons you have, what AT and level they are, and how long you have been playing the game.
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I could direct the same question to you, 515. I'm still waiting for you to reveal some of your alts in-game or to join us in some dominator gathering. You can bring your corruptor if you like. 
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The difference between me and Bradd is that I do not presume to give people overall build and tactics advice, or criticize them for not accepting it -- I have always said that I consider myself to be a completely average and typical player. If someone is going to put themselves forward as an expert and insist that other people just aren't using the right build or tactics to succeed, as Bradd does, then they ought to expect to have to put forward their credentials. And I personally am not terribly impressed by someone who doesn't even have a level 40 dom or a level 50 anything -- I'm not willing to accept such a person as an expert on the game, frankly.
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No doubt it's time for someone to bring up the fact that I have no proof that a majority of people who try grav doms would greatly benifit from an improvment in grav dom's broken powers. True enough, but that is my opinion based on experience, forum posts, guides (see below) and people I've talked to.
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and you are entitled to it. but you seem to accept that opinion as 'fact' or 'thuth' or 'proof' which it is not.
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I try to make a habit of not interjecting in other people's arguments but the subject of Propel's animation time was brought up and I wanted to file a motion to put that particular complaint into the "fact" column.
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No doubt it's time for someone to bring up the fact that I have no proof that a majority of people who try grav doms would greatly benifit from an improvment in grav dom's broken powers. True enough, but that is my opinion based on experience, forum posts, guides (see below) and people I've talked to.
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and you are entitled to it. but you seem to accept that opinion as 'fact' or 'thuth' or 'proof' which it is not.
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I try to make a habit of not interjecting in other people's arguments but the subject of Propel's animation time was brought up and I wanted to file a motion to put that particular complaint into the "fact" column.
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noted. ok. you're opinion is that it's a fact (sorry, i couldn't resist )
seriously tho. i've said it and said it, INDIVIDUAL POWERS BEING REVIEWED IS A GOOD THING FOR ALL AT'S, not just doms. and i really have no experience with propel personally, so HAVE NO [censored] CLUE if the animation time is really that annoying/gamebreaking, but a 4 second wind up to a [censored] st attack does seem rediculous. you [censored] happy??? i'm even gonna run over to the issues list right this minute and make [censored] sure it's [censored] on it!!!! [censored] worked for IC, ISC, and confuse, also as i've pointed out several times!!!
Your Insanity May Vary...
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And I personally am not terribly impressed by someone who doesn't even have a level 40 dom or a level 50 anything -- I'm not willing to accept such a person as an expert on the game, frankly.
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That's not a very reliable means of judging someone's expertise. The game is not substantially different at 40 or 50 than it is at 30, and there are enough power levelled 50s that using the big 5-0 as some sort of magic benchmark isn't very trustworthy. There are people who have been consistently playing this game for 2 years and, due to altitis, still do not have a level 50 toon.
Kid Lazarus, 50 empath Defender
Freek, 50 mind/psi Dominator
Black Khopesh, 43 db/wp Scrapper
Circuit-Boy, 40 elec Brute
Graf von Eisenfaust, 38 db/wp Brute
Blue Banshee, 35 sonic Blaster
Blood Countess, 33 mind/storm Controller
Dr. Radon, 32 rad Corruptor
Phantom Pirate, 32 db/wp Stalker
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... there is no tactic that will make dimension shift any more palatable to my team mates ....
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Not only do Dimension Shift tactics exist; we actually discussed them recently.
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Dimension Shift tactics do exist. Those tactics still fail to bring Dimension Shift on par with many other level 12 skills; when the comparrison point is powers like Telekinesis, Ice Slick, even Flash Fires, Dimension Shift just doesn't live up. You can definitely finesse value out of it, but that's exactly what you're doing: using your own competency to finesse value out of a sub-par power.
Thing is, he's not saying such tactics don't exist, he's saying that even using them the skill both underperforms and annoys. Yes, you can do things like not slot it for intangibility so it leaves bosses unphased and kill them first, or not slot it for accuracy so random portions of the enemy base remain unphased to kill first, and so forth, but you don't have to DO crap like that for other level 12 skills, and in a good team doing crap like that isn't even particularly beneficial, as having to wait for the phase to end is just going to slow you down, and will often actually force you to spend MORE endurance per spawn than you otherwise would, as AOEs that would have hit phased foes fail to. That's the basis of his complaint: not that you can't eek some value out of it, but that the eeked value just plain isn't needed -- and often isn't even WANTED -- by most decent teams. And he's totally right; he's not saying no tactics exist with regards to the skill, he's saying that even employing those tactics his (likely competent) team mates aren't happy with the results, because they only slow a good team down.
Dimension Shift needs to be altered or improved. It's not useless, but it's one of the LEAST USEFUL control skills in the game, and when a skill is both low on utility and high on irritation caused, a change is warranted. Gravity needs more soft control, it needs more team utility, and Dimension Shift is where those points converge. Fix that, tweak Propel somehow to compensate for the fact that Dominators really don't need a slow animating attack in their primary (at least one that does the damage Propel does; it would arguably be of more value if it's damage were to be doubled, as it's the 2x damage that makes it so good for Controllers), and you've got a good set in Gravity.
Hmm you know if the rest function increased the domination gauge...
And the meter for it never went down or else the button once it was ready stayed ready until it was used instead of turning off for lack of staying in combat.
I am sure the Dominators would not be considered sucky by anyone.
If anything they would be considered someone to make sure to kill first in a pvp zone...instead of either being ignored or used as a free kill by most players.
And in the normal PvE game their versatility and readiness at that point would be a bigger help to teams and for actual game play....
i am sure thats not noticable to people who use pets or basicaly let others do the work for them most of the time.
but if you solo, or have to survive on your own for anylength or just want to be able to be that person who can come in and make a huge difference for a team when they are losing.....then you would understand what i am talking about.
I see many people taliking about damage...but thats not realy what a dominator is about....unless they are supposed to be reverse blasters....i suppose their powers are like a Blaster's just alot weaker.
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That's not a very reliable means of judging someone's expertise. The game is not substantially different at 40 or 50 than it is at 30, and there are enough power levelled 50s that using the big 5-0 as some sort of magic benchmark isn't very trustworthy. There are people who have been consistently playing this game for 2 years and, due to altitis, still do not have a level 50 toon.
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Having a level 50 is not a sufficient condition to be an expert in the game, but I think it is a necessary condition -- and a fairly minimal one at that.
The first person to find 20 wins!
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Having a level 50 is not a sufficient condition to be an expert in the game, but I think it is a necessary condition -- and a fairly minimal one at that.
[/ QUOTE ] Having a level 50 is a necessary condition to comment meaningfully on issues that only affect level 50's. And only that.
Issues of basic logic can be commented on by someone who hasn't played the game at all.
Issues that pop up before level 33 can be commented on by someone who is level 33.
You are welcome to think otherwise, but be careful to not construe it as anything but your own preference.
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Having a level 50 is not a sufficient condition to be an expert in the game, but I think it is a necessary condition -- and a fairly minimal one at that.
[/ QUOTE ] Having a level 50 is a necessary condition to comment meaningfully on issues that only affect level 50's. And only that.
Issues of basic logic can be commented on by someone who hasn't played the game at all.
Issues that pop up before level 33 can be commented on by someone who is level 33.
You are welcome to think otherwise, but be careful to not construe it as anything but your own preference.
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Unfortunately, the person who demanded that others post their builds and tactics so that he could tell them what they were doing wrong did not say that he was going to restrict his comments to pre-level-33, or to the build that he has personal experience with. If he had, then I would not have had a problem with it. I just think it's silly, though, for a person to put themselves forth as an expert on build and tactics when they have been playing the game since 2004 and their highest char is level 33. If I were such a person, I'd be asking for advice, not presuming to offer it.
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Having a level 50 is not a sufficient condition to be an expert in the game, but I think it is a necessary condition -- and a fairly minimal one at that.
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I almost spit out my coffee when I read this. That quote has got to be...well, I'm not going to even go there. Nice opinion, though. Too bad it's wrong.
Psyphon lvl 50 Mind/Psy/Psy Dom Freedom
'Healer' dependency is like filling a car with airbags instead of having a seatbelt. -- Lady Sadako
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Having a level 50 is not a sufficient condition to be an expert in the game, but I think it is a necessary condition -- and a fairly minimal one at that.
[/ QUOTE ] Having a level 50 is a necessary condition to comment meaningfully on issues that only affect level 50's. And only that.
Issues of basic logic can be commented on by someone who hasn't played the game at all.
Issues that pop up before level 33 can be commented on by someone who is level 33.
You are welcome to think otherwise, but be careful to not construe it as anything but your own preference.
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Unfortunately, the person who demanded that others post their builds and tactics so that he could tell them what they were doing wrong did not say that he was going to restrict his comments to pre-level-33, or to the build that he has personal experience with. If he had, then I would not have had a problem with it. I just think it's silly, though, for a person to put themselves forth as an expert on build and tactics when they have been playing the game since 2004 and their highest char is level 33. If I were such a person, I'd be asking for advice, not presuming to offer it.
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And I find it silly, that someone who uses hyperbole, and made up 'facts' and dubious opinions couched in "god's own truth" is such an elitist little [censored] as to dismiss Bradd.. whose done more actual subjective testing and reporting on Doms than you ever have.
All you ever do is go, "loook, on thursday's at 1am there's less dom's than any other AT... DOOOM DOOOM"
I really wish you'd just stop posting altogether. I haven't seen a single post from you that wasn't either a thinly veiled insult, or a DOOOOOM I can't solo 8man spawns so I'm not pulling my weight.
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Unfortunately, the person who demanded that others post their builds and tactics so that he could tell them what they were doing wrong ....
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That's a personal attack and a lie. I did no such thing. I suggested that you and others post your builds and tactics so that the forum as a whole could offer you advice.
Generally speaking (not a direct response), I don't believe I've ever seen such a bubbling pot of self-deception and self-righteousness. This is now officially the knee-slappingest thread ever. Congrats all!
A guide to the deranged, degraded inhabitants of the forums.
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Unfortunately, the person who demanded that others post their builds and tactics so that he could tell them what they were doing wrong did not say that he was going to restrict his comments to pre-level-33, or to the build that he has personal experience with.
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Either you're being deliberately obtuse in order to continue arguing or your reading comprehension skills are somewhat lacking lately; I've reread the last several pages, and no where does Bradd "demand" that others post their builds, nor does he offer himself as an expert on anything.
The quotes from Bradd in relations to your complaints:
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Then post your build & tactics and ask for help.
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the same goes for everyone else who complains endlessly about dominators without asking for advice.
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Not only do Dimension Shift tactics exist; we actually discussed them recently.
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It doesn't require game experience to point out that a topic on Dimension Shift build and gameplay tactics recently appeared on the forums.
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Note: no where does Bradd say that he will be the one giving the advice, only that people who are having difficulty with their Dominators should seek build advice rather than merely complain about it.
Kid Lazarus, 50 empath Defender
Freek, 50 mind/psi Dominator
Black Khopesh, 43 db/wp Scrapper
Circuit-Boy, 40 elec Brute
Graf von Eisenfaust, 38 db/wp Brute
Blue Banshee, 35 sonic Blaster
Blood Countess, 33 mind/storm Controller
Dr. Radon, 32 rad Corruptor
Phantom Pirate, 32 db/wp Stalker
Thanks, KL. That's exactly right.
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I haven't seen a single post from you [515A] that wasn't either a thinly veiled insult, or a DOOOOOM I can't solo 8man spawns so I'm not pulling my weight.
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In his defense, he was quite helpful when I tested regeneration debuffs, after some coaching.
To be fair Bradd did not insinuate he would offer the advice himself.
Yesterday, when I myself realized he had a lvl 33 dom and the rest of his CoV experience hadn't passed the teens, I almost wrote a post wondering what made him feel qualified to refute some of what a couple of us had been saying. Then I went back and reread his posts, and realized that would not have been warranted.
However I will say that his position seems to be either people must be either:
A) satisfied with dominators overall
-or-
B) in need of help building/playing their doms
Personally, I'm neither. I feel I do get as much out of my dom as I can. I just feel when I do, I lag behind the effectiveness of other ATs - primarily in a team situation.
I have no issue saying based on his personal play experience, he would not be qualified to challenge that assertion. However as he did not directly do so, I left it alone.
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Thanks, KL. That's exactly right.
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Bradd, thanks for clarifying that, based on your highest toon being level 33, you do not presume to offer build or tactics advice.
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Thanks, KL. That's exactly right.
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Bradd, thanks for clarifying that, based on your highest toon being level 33, you do not presume to offer build or tactics advice.
[/ QUOTE ] You know, I think you're trying to rub it in, but really it seems like you're offended over having made a relatively simple mistake.
Might be time to let it go and move on with the "dominators suck" part of today's discussion. And yesterday's, incidentally. Oh, and it'll be tomorrow's.
It would take a lot to kill this thread 
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Thanks, KL. That's exactly right.
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Bradd, thanks for clarifying that, based on your highest toon being level 33, you do not presume to offer build or tactics advice.
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i was gonna post something that reversed that question to you about judging the AT's worth and such but i dont even wanna reinforce that mindset cuz it's full-on elitist.
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Bradd, thanks for clarifying that, based on your highest toon being level 33, you do not presume to offer build or tactics advice.
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It really is a very simple thing to admit you made an honest mistake and move on. Or heck, just move on. But you really seem to like being argumentative just for the sake of being argumentative.
Kid Lazarus, 50 empath Defender
Freek, 50 mind/psi Dominator
Black Khopesh, 43 db/wp Scrapper
Circuit-Boy, 40 elec Brute
Graf von Eisenfaust, 38 db/wp Brute
Blue Banshee, 35 sonic Blaster
Blood Countess, 33 mind/storm Controller
Dr. Radon, 32 rad Corruptor
Phantom Pirate, 32 db/wp Stalker
This thread seriously needs to be locked. No one is saying anything new...
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If you are going to offer your services as tutor for the uninformed, you ought to at least tell us how many toons you have, what AT and level they are, and how long you have been playing the game.
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I could direct the same question to you, 515. I'm still waiting for you to reveal some of your alts in-game or to join us in some dominator gathering. You can bring your corruptor if you like.
Invictus Est Level 50 Invul/Fire Tank
Malentis Level 50 Ice/Energy/Leviathan Dom (Freedom)
Black Jeremiah Level 50 Fire/Fire/Mu Dom
Sejanna Level 50 Dark/Dark/Elec Def (Virtue)
Arc #119664 - The MiniMech Cometh - Hess TF Mini-Sequel