Do dominators suck like people say they do?
By
Aleshanee_NA,
Posted on: 2006-07-05 13:59 in Dominators
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How ridiculous is it? What portion of incoming damage do you think one typical dominator can prevent? One typical defender? Don't assume that we're thinking of the same numbers that you are.
[/ QUOTE ] Well, first let's assume it's not PvP or an AV. Those are gimmes, after all, since Control performs the weakest then.
So let's talk about missions instead. How many Defenders does it take for damage to be mitigated to the point that a typical team can run through at a reasonably quick speed (no need to stop to Rest, no deaths, quick kills, etc). Two, in my experience, for a full team. More makes things faster, but you're smooth sailing with two Defenders as your sole source of mitigation.
How many Dominators would it take for there to be no risk, fast killing, and no pauses? Could you do it with two Dominators as your sole source of team mitigation? Would adding more Dominators make it faster?
Support mitigates better than Control. Not only because of what I noted above, but Support does not have the liability of being 100% foe-based for its effect.
Control is useful. I like Control. Control is not, however, the superior option for team mitigation.
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Ice slick generally mitigates ~90% or more of all the damage from a spawn, with a duration that lets it typically last the entire fight (on a strong team) and a recharge that with 3 SO recharge reduction and hasten allows it to be almost perma.
AOE holds 100% stop any damage while affecting 10? 15? mobs and lasts long enough for the dangerous mobs and majority of the spawn to die on a decent team when slotted with 3 duration SOs or using Power boost. However, its not up except every third spawn or so. For ice it can be alternated with flash freeze, but I dont as PUGS have problems with sleeps.
On fire, flashfire is up about every spawn, and with 3 SO duration lasts long enough for most of the spawn to die. Its really what the AOE hold should do, but its ranged, and has good recharge as opposed to the AOE hold.
None of this includes the mitigation of hot feet or artic air or shiver. Hot feet uses slow and fear to make it rare for the mobs to attack you, while they take pretty decent damage (decent based on many mobs in AOE). AA uses fear + confuse + slow to mitigate pretty good. Shiver has less clear effects to me.
Bonfire can be used to group mobs in a tight space for FE, HF, breath of fire from which most will be dead, even with out a toon (though its bad when you miss place the bonfire and just agro everyone 
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In normal play (not PVP or AVs), the only case where corruptors are better then doms, IMO, is when they are stacked heavily (4-5 of them). Then, the overlapping effects (like 2 speed boosts and 2 AMs for the team) make them by far better than ANY other AT. This is also true of controllers or defenders, BTW.
The overlap capacity of the buff sets get unreal when there are a lot of them on a team, but other than that, in normal PUGs I see doms doing as good or better than corruptors in damage mitigation.
As mentioned, it's not mutually exclusive. My VG on Triumph is in a coalition with some of the folks that did the first LRSF... We DO get together fast, focused VG teams on a regular basis, but I'm often not on or cannot stay on long enough to participate all the time, so PuGs or soloing is what I do a fair amount of the time too. I imagine you'll find that many folks do a wide spectrum of teaming. ::shrug::
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as to the rest, i think most of the people YOU PLAY WITH (ie the powergamers in your VG) may think that, but it's not a solid representation of the opinion for the entire player base, regardless of how often you imply otherwise. mabey i get my enjoyment from all the complements i get from playing my dom. dont assume you know what fun is for most people, much less everyone.
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You say that as if the two concepts have to be mutually exclusive.
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guess they dont necessairly. depends entirely on you're opinion of things. i have a good toon that i play well, and who get's those elusive invites to 8man powergaming VG teams every so often (no LRSF yet. but i've been specifically requested be some for a couple of the newer AV fights...frellin hate the 'ville. stoopid lagmonster keeps killin me out of mish. if i can get to it, im usually fine tho), so my opinion is different from someone else who doesnt see the same things in the dominator that i do (ie, noone sees me as 'not carrying my weight' so i never knew until i read it here on the boards, so all i saw was the compliments and the questions about how i did that and what i'd recommend for a dom toon). that's cool as far as it goes. but 'changing' the AT in the name of "improvements" that i dont see needed is where i stand up and get into the discussion. tweeks/fixes to indivitual powers are case by case and i'm for that in all AT's as they most all need love in that area, but some want drastic change/total rework which would 'break' something for ME. in the end, it's the dev's who will have the final say and we'll all just have to deal.
Your Insanity May Vary...just like your opinion.
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All I'm saying is that if some of the people here who are so satisfied with doms actually experienced the full gamut of the game, instead of just solo and PuGs, they might have a better idea of what those of us who feel doms are lacking on large teams are talking about.
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... because 8-man PuG's running on relentless aren't large teams?
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
I personally think Doms are great. They can control as well as help putting out damage for the team. I do admit that Domination makes them more useful but without it they are not useless. I guess it's always fun to have a button that u can click to "kick it up a level" and it's always great to refill the Endurance bar.
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All I'm saying is that if some of the people here who are so satisfied with doms actually experienced the full gamut of the game, instead of just solo and PuGs, they might have a better idea of what those of us who feel doms are lacking on large teams are talking about.
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... because 8-man PuG's running on relentless aren't large teams?
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If the issue is whether doms are as good as other toons on large teams, a PuG is not a good place to look for the answer, simply because it's quite likely that some or most of your teammates are drunk, watching TV, watching their children, set on "follow" so they can PL, etc. etc. A dom may indeed be lacking on such a team, but the very high noise-to-signal ratio may well disguise that fact.
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All I'm saying is that if some of the people here who are so satisfied with doms actually experienced the full gamut of the game, instead of just solo and PuGs, they might have a better idea of what those of us who feel doms are lacking on large teams are talking about.
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... because 8-man PuG's running on relentless aren't large teams?
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If the issue is whether doms are as good as other toons on large teams, a PuG is not a good place to look for the answer, simply because it's quite likely that some or most of your teammates are drunk, watching TV, watching their children, set on "follow" so they can PL, etc. etc. A dom may indeed be lacking on such a team, but the very high noise-to-signal ratio may well disguise that fact.
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Seems to me to be very eliteist. In other words, the only people who really "know" what the standard an AT should perform to are people who form PL teams for max farming of exp. PUGs dont count, nor does playing with friends who may not be maxing exp/hr, etc. Honestly, this style play also makes a stalker a loser, unless he ghosts to the end of every mission and just touches the blinkie or kills the one boss. In addition, MMs are also losers here due to startup time, unless you are street sweeping mobs. Guess only brutes and corruptors make decent team mates.
Most dom builds arent made for those type teams, but I could make a dom that is. Take a fire/fire dom, use FE + breath of fire + AOE immob + HF + combustion and a significant portion of any spawn would be dead extremely fast. All you would need is the same thing an AOE throwing corruptor needs, which is something to keep agro. Only, you could stop agro via smoke then flashfire, then attacking. Add in three foaming at the mouth fire imps, and the exp/minute is pretty high.
Honestly though, as you run up to 50 and yell "I HAVE ANOTHER TOON AT 50!!!", then what? Nothing to do but turn around and do the same thing with another AT, or PVP. COx really doesnt have an end game to speak of, so the time spent raising 1-50 is the game, not being at 50.
As for me, there isnt anything in COH I havent done, from large SG teams to soloing, from 1 to 50, and each AT (though not each individual powerset, and not every AT to 50) to at least SO level or higher.
In COV, I have one of every AT above the SO level, though not to 40 or higher. I have played with VG teams that were made of some of the best players around, as well as some very stinky pugs. Ive played with corruptors of every set above the 40's and have seen every single AT at the highest levels (at 50 or darn close) and probably every single powerset functioning between level 40 and 50.
Frankly, other than AV and PVP fights, I find doms to perform reasonably, as a control primary and a damage secondary. Not everyone wants a powerleveled FOTM build.
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515A:Some of us, in fact a *lot* of the playerbase do NOT have the ability to dedicate that much time to playing.
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Lol, I'm lucky if I get to play 2 hours a day, and definitely cannot play every day.
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Confirming something I've often suspected -- some of you spend more time arguing about the game than actually playing it 
Kid Lazarus, 50 empath Defender
Freek, 50 mind/psi Dominator
Black Khopesh, 43 db/wp Scrapper
Circuit-Boy, 40 elec Brute
Graf von Eisenfaust, 38 db/wp Brute
Blue Banshee, 35 sonic Blaster
Blood Countess, 33 mind/storm Controller
Dr. Radon, 32 rad Corruptor
Phantom Pirate, 32 db/wp Stalker
So 515 if I am not in an elite VG I am in the minority? I would very much assume that most people are not in elite villain groups. Most folks are typically if in a large group are in a PUG. Does anyone disagree with this?
I guess dominators are not for the Power gamers. If thats the argument, than I agree whole heartdley, and more power to the AT if thats the case.
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515A:Some of us, in fact a *lot* of the playerbase do NOT have the ability to dedicate that much time to playing.
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Lol, I'm lucky if I get to play 2 hours a day, and definitely cannot play every day.
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Confirming something I've often suspected -- some of you spend more time arguing about the game than actually playing it
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I really did laugh out loud when I read this. Now my co-workers are giving me funny looks... 
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Gravity: Late blooming but sing and wormhole are as good as it gets. Sing really makes up for the lack of control and lets you focus on damage.
[/ QUOTE ] Yes Gravity is a late bloomer, like lvl 37. Seriously my grav dom is lvl 37 and I am just recently feeling that she is starting to live up to my reasonable expectation. Maybe Ice, Fire, Plant, etc dont have any real issue, but from my personal experience I can agree with all those that point out the flaws in gravity. And that has been done since very early on i.e. the guide mentioned below.
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The saddest thing about this post and the dozens of others just like it over the last several months is that the hours of time spent reading and posting about how your dominator is weak could be spent playing new builds or improving old tactics.
I feel sorry for you.
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I spend plenty of time playing thank you very much.
What I feel sorry for is someone who cant accept that other people have valid opinions that are diffrent from thier own, that is what is really sad.
As for tactics, there is no tactic that will stop propel from locking you down for 4 seconds, there is no tactic that will stop wormhole from scattering your mobs, there is no tactic that will make dimension shift any more palatable to my team mates. Bottom line is there is no tactic that will make this poor powerset into what it should be.
I'm not unhappy with the rate at which my grav dom leveled. I am umhappy that I didn't contribute as much to the teams that got me that XP as I could have with any other powerset.
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... there is no tactic that will make dimension shift any more palatable to my team mates ....
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Not only do Dimension Shift tactics exist; we actually discussed them recently.
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crusades
[/ QUOTE ] . We're talking about adjusting a powerset to be better for the majority even if it inconveniences a few hard core gamers. Not quite the same as the crusades.
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nope, it isnt, nor is it seatbelts but i was responding to analogy, you know 'things done to us for our own good'.
oh, wait. you just wanted something to take out of context to ridicule my and invalidate my message.
my bad.
[/ QUOTE ] No I'm really not dismissing your responses... except when the analogy is that overblown. Sorry but I dont agree with use of any sort of analogy that goes to a far extreme of any version of mass death, politics or religion. Agreeing or disagreeing with me, I think it's best not to bring up that kind of subject here.
So lets move on past that.
Your point is that it's generally best to not force people to do things they dont want to do. I can accept and agree with that, I certainly didn't want ED forced on me. The reason I see a change to grav dom's broken powers or a small boost to doms in general as a good change is that I honestly believe that more people would benefit from it than would be hurt from it. Let's say they boost your damage 15% and you end up killing mobs so fast that you find the character boring and for some reason you dont simply fight mobs a lvl higher than before. Granted your game has been hurt. But if a large majority of people now find that doms have gone from perceived as underpowered to now being perceived as just right (both from players and team mates), then it was a worthwhile sacrifice IMHO.
Same thing can be said for any specific grav power changes like for example reducing propel activation from 4 seconds down to 2 seconds. I have no doubt some people will say OMG I'm killing stuff to fast now!!! 
But most people are going to say OMG propel is a viable power again.
I think it's even quite possible that changes could be made to satisfy everyone who finds doms currently underpowered while not upsetting most of the people who find doms fine the way they are now. No body here is asking for to be uber.
No doubt it's time for someone to bring up the fact that I have no proof that a majority of people who try grav doms would greatly benifit from an improvment in grav dom's broken powers. True enough, but that is my opinion based on experience, forum posts, guides (see below) and people I've talked to.
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... there is no tactic that will make dimension shift any more palatable to my team mates ....
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Not only do Dimension Shift tactics exist; we actually discussed them recently.
[/ QUOTE ] Brawl tactics exist too. Sorry, I meant viable useful tactics. 
Actually I didn't say DS tactics dont exist, I said there is no way to make my team like DS.
I've tried it in the most appropiate of situations and it simply does't work for them. I should admit I did see DS appreciated once, but that doesn't make up for all the times that it's disliked if not despised. DS isn't really unusable, it's just horrendously situational and it needs to be changed.
Explain to me how making it capable of being turned off would hurt you so bad. It would make the power less situational for me, I might even take it then. How would that power being a toggle hurt you?
So you don't want to learn?
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So you don't want to learn?
[/ QUOTE ] And you can't make me!!!
/obvious
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So you don't want to learn?
[/ QUOTE ] Why are you so unwilling to accept that these powers are broken for many people. One more time, there is no tactic that would make DS acceptable to my team mates except in the most extreme situations. I dont want a power that is either going to upset my team or be extremely situational. The only learning that needs to be done is that you need to learn that some people will never like DS in it's current form. That doesn't make them bad people or dumb people or any other insult you have in mind. It doesn't mean they need to benifit from your great wisdom in all matters dom. It means the power is too situational and/or pisses off my brute friends.
You're usually better than simple insults.
I'll take that as a "yes."
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So you don't want to learn?
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Bradd, correct me if I'm wrong, but the last time you mentioned your highest dom, it was like, level 30 or so.
If you are going to offer your services as tutor for the uninformed, you ought to at least tell us how many toons you have, what AT and level they are, and how long you have been playing the game.
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You're usually better than simple insults.
[/ QUOTE ] That wasn't an insult, it was a joke specifically about the phrase he used. I thought it was kind of an obvious joke, thus the /
No need to be making it a personal thing. It's a phrase
Have you never heard "I don't want to learn...and you can't make me!"?
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Bradd, correct me if I'm wrong, but the last time you mentioned your highest dom, it was like, level 30 or so.
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33rd. How is this relevant? It doesn't require game experience to point out that a topic on Dimension Shift build and gameplay tactics recently appeared on the forums.
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If you are going to offer your services as tutor for the uninformed, you ought to at least tell us how many toons you have, what AT and level they are, and how long you have been playing the game.
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For the cases where it is relevant: My current main characters are a 33rd-level mind/psi dominator and a 26th-level MA/regen scrapper. I have enough experience with Mind Control (both PVE and PVP) to offer build and tactical advice for every power in the set. I've also played villain content up to 42nd level with my dominator via frequent lackeying, so I'm quite familiar with dominator play in the late game. The only major kind of villain content I haven't done with my dominator is the RSF. My regular teammates include all 5 villain ATs, ranging from 2nd to 43rd level.
I currently have over 20 characters, and I've played every AT except Kheldians long enough to learn at least basic tactics for the type. I have the most experience with dominators and scrappers (several high-teens characters in addition to my two mains), plus modest experience with tankers and blasters.
I started playing in May or June of 2004. I took a break in 2005 but started again at CoV/I6 release and have been playing regularly since. Most of my CoH experience, except for my scrapper main, is pre-I5.
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as to the rest, i think most of the people YOU PLAY WITH (ie the powergamers in your VG) may think that, but it's not a solid representation of the opinion for the entire player base, regardless of how often you imply otherwise. mabey i get my enjoyment from all the complements i get from playing my dom. dont assume you know what fun is for most people, much less everyone.
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You say that as if the two concepts have to be mutually exclusive.