Do dominators suck like people say they do?
By
Aleshanee_NA,
Posted on: 2006-07-05 13:59 in Dominators
Lets just say it...Corruptors are Broken! Just like Controllers are broken in high end CoH. Why the devs would make another AT like this after seeing what Controller's became is beyond me.
Dominators don't need mitigation from their secondaries. Even if they did, there's ice (slows), psi (-recharge), and fire and elec (death).
-Talen_Lee commenting on Energy Assault's Utility
Some other things to consider in the comparison -- Snow Storm is autohit, which is hugely important when you're talking about hitting +4 Heroes. Also, Sleet debuffs resistance heavily. And Infridgidate has a -def that makes all other powers hit much better. And you completely ignored Benumb, which is probably the single best anti-AV power in the game. If you are comparing /psi to /cold and saying which would be more useful on the recluse, you have to look at everything /cold can do.
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Lets just say it...Corruptors are Broken! Just like Controllers are broken in high end CoH. Why the devs would make another AT like this after seeing what Controller's became is beyond me.
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I wouldn't go that far.
Despite how well buffs/debuffs stack in general, corruptors don't seem to be borken in the same way that controllers are.
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
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Psionic Assault can easily hit the recharge debuff cap. Psychic Shockwave alone can easily hit the cap.
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I'm sorry; I overstated my case here. I don't actually know that Shockwave can hit the recharge cap on its own, and it probably can't. My apologies for adding more misinformation to the heap.
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Lets just say it...Corruptors are Broken! Just like Controllers are broken in high end CoH. Why the devs would make another AT like this after seeing what Controller's became is beyond me.
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I wouldn't go that far.
Despite how well buffs/debuffs stack in general, corruptors don't seem to be borken in the same way that controllers are.
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Because they can't do very good damage, debuff, buff, heal, mez, and control at least one pet-on many builds....wait, which one was I refering to Corruptors or Controllers?
Dominators don't need mitigation from their secondaries. Even if they did, there's ice (slows), psi (-recharge), and fire and elec (death).
-Talen_Lee commenting on Energy Assault's Utility
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Lets just say it...Corruptors are Broken! Just like Controllers are broken in high end CoH. Why the devs would make another AT like this after seeing what Controller's became is beyond me.
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I wouldn't go that far.
Despite how well buffs/debuffs stack in general, corruptors don't seem to be borken in the same way that controllers are.
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Because they can't do very good damage, debuff, buff, heal, mez, and control at least one pet-on many builds....wait, which one was I refering to Corruptors or Controllers?
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I thought you were talking about a mastermind.
... or a brute with PPP's plus the medicine pool?
... maybe a stalker with the same?
There's degrees to everything. I don't think corruptors are nearly as bad as controllers as far as min/maxing goes.
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
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Lets just say it...Corruptors are Broken! Just like Controllers are broken in high end CoH. Why the devs would make another AT like this after seeing what Controller's became is beyond me.
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I wouldn't go that far.
Despite how well buffs/debuffs stack in general, corruptors don't seem to be borken in the same way that controllers are.
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Because they can't do very good damage, debuff, buff, heal, mez, and control at least one pet-on many builds....wait, which one was I refering to Corruptors or Controllers?
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I thought you were talking about a mastermind.
... or a brute with PPP's plus the medicine pool?
... maybe a stalker with the same?
There's degrees to everything. I don't think corruptors are nearly as bad as controllers as far as min/maxing goes.
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True, but some of the Corruptor sets only need the PPP to get a pet, they can do the rest on their own.
My point was that just like a Controller, a half way decently built Corruptor with many of the sets in the AT can do well at just about all aspects of the game. The only other AT in CoV that comes close to that are certain MMs, and of course Controllers on the CoH side.
Regardless, if the devs would either find a better way to handle mezing in game, or apply similar restrictions to buffs and debuffs (yes, I know this would be pretty hard on controllers, I am just speaking hypothetically), then things like AV fights would be a bit more even on contributions, or at least the ridiculousness of how Doms are gimped in those situations would become more obvious to a wider variety of players.
Dominators don't need mitigation from their secondaries. Even if they did, there's ice (slows), psi (-recharge), and fire and elec (death).
-Talen_Lee commenting on Energy Assault's Utility
I must say that after months of trying to point out overall team-PvE effectiveness issues relative to other AT's, I find this new topic almost funny.
Rather than admit doms may be underpowered, the new argument is that corruptors are overpowered.
Have to say that Raz has a very good point concerning corruptors. Even the MMs that can come close to the sheer DPS that a Corruptor can crank out still have to content with the simple fact that they take more time to set up and when the pets are dead, there is no or very little dps..it becomes even more skewed tward favoring the corruptor ... again.
And I have to say 515, if there is a "relative weakness of corrs for soloing" I havent seen it. Flame Breath , Tarpatch, Fire Ball & Rain of Fire before lvl 12, if thats weak soloing then every AT should have it as "hard" as that.
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I must say that after months of trying to point out overall team-PvE effectiveness issues relative to other AT's, I find this new topic almost funny.
Rather than admit doms may be underpowered, the new argument is that corruptors are overpowered.
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However funny this may appear, it is a valid point of view. Its the flip side of the same mirror. If (as some say) corruptors can out control a dom, its clearly a design flaw with corruptors, as they should have no ability to get close to dom level of control. Plus, controls have been nuked as too strong (vs AVs, AOE holds, etc), so if they have more controls than doms, surely corruptors need nerf. Not saying I agree with it, but its surely reasonable.
I dont know ice corruptors, so will stick with a dark corruptor.
The reason I see my dark corrutor as strong on a team, is not the damage (dark damage really isnt that good, IMO), but the AOE debuffs.
You have tar patch (- resistance and slow), darkest night (-damage, -acc), and shadowfall has an aoe buff (+defense and +resistance). Discounting the pet, thats a decent amount of damage reduced via +resist +def on team, -damage and -acc on mobs. Further, taking the case of 5 of them on a team, you now have all of the AVs bottomed out, because all of these effects overlap.
To me, its the overlap and triangles (ie. holds dont work) that really make the difference. If our AOE holds could be made perma, so 5 doms could spam AOE holds and the AVs didnt have triangles, then we would be as welcome as corruptors on the LRSF.
I have a l9 fire/dark corruptor. And while I can't have RoF and tar Patch every spawn... i can solo 8 mob spawns pretty easily.
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I must say that after months of trying to point out overall team-PvE effectiveness issues relative to other AT's, I find this new topic almost funny.
Rather than admit doms may be underpowered, the new argument is that corruptors are overpowered.
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However funny this may appear, it is a valid point of view. Its the flip side of the same mirror. If (as some say) corruptors can out control a dom, its clearly a design flaw with corruptors, as they should have no ability to get close to dom level of control. Plus, controls have been nuked as too strong (vs AVs, AOE holds, etc), so if they have more controls than doms, surely corruptors need nerf. Not saying I agree with it, but its surely reasonable.
I dont know ice corruptors, so will stick with a dark corruptor.
The reason I see my dark corrutor as strong on a team, is not the damage (dark damage really isnt that good, IMO), but the AOE debuffs.
You have tar patch (- resistance and slow), darkest night (-damage, -acc), and shadowfall has an aoe buff (+defense and +resistance). Discounting the pet, thats a decent amount of damage reduced via +resist +def on team, -damage and -acc on mobs. Further, taking the case of 5 of them on a team, you now have all of the AVs bottomed out, because all of these effects overlap.
To me, its the overlap and triangles (ie. holds dont work) that really make the difference. If our AOE holds could be made perma, so 5 doms could spam AOE holds and the AVs didnt have triangles, then we would be as welcome as corruptors on the LRSF.
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The problem is not that corruptors can out control a dom.
Because, on paper they just can't.
The problem is that, Dom's don't have enough control to make up for the fact that all you need is 6 mag to get the control you need, and the fact that the next step is 50+ mag.
If dom powers were mag 6-7 BEFORE domination. Then.. You'd find that doms had enough of a mag over-load to do something about AV's.
The other option btw... is this:
Minion mag -1
Lt mag -2
Boss mag -5
EB mag -8
AV mag -8 + Triangle buff
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I must say that after months of trying to point out overall team-PvE effectiveness issues relative to other AT's, I find this new topic almost funny.
Rather than admit doms may be underpowered, the new argument is that corruptors are overpowered.
[/ QUOTE ]Well most doms and devs agree that Doms need to be ajusted upwards and we have red names acknowledging that. You have only to just go back a few pages to see someone "admit doms may be underpowered".
However if you were to compare them to Corruptors &/or Controllers, even the suggested tweaks wont be enough, giving them full mez resist wont be enough and trippling or even giving them quad damage wont be enough because this game gives way too much benefit to debuffs and buffs while neutering holds and controls at the same time.
What is funny in a sick sad way is that Controllers have access to both and Doms have access to 1 for the most part. And since some people have been so nice as to draw a comparison between the Corruptors and Dominators then it bears to reason that the same criteria should be held to Corruptors vs other ATs
And not suprisingly the Corruptor comes out on top. So are the other ATs underpowered? Or is the Corruptor over powered? Only a Red name knows the answer for sure.
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And not suprisingly the Corruptor comes out on top. So are the other ATs underpowered? Or is the Corruptor over powered? Only a Red name knows the answer for sure.
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Or, are defenders screwed, in that in the one area they should shine brightest, the ATs with their primary as a secondary get about the same benefit for the team as having a defender on it.
In other words, why have a defender when you can have a controller? Or, why have a defender when you can have a corruptor (if changeovers can happen)?
The devs seem to think defenders are the best overall balanced AT, but they are weaker then any of the ATs which have their primary as a secondary.
So, its ok to have a damage secondary doing 50-60 % damage, but a defender secondary is 80%, and with some powers, work better for a troller than a defender. Plus, some powers dont have a number to be adjusted to 80%. Why dont trollers and corruptors get 55% of the defender base?
Really, corruptors being good on teams dont bother me, what bothers me is that doms dont get to use their powers vs AVs and in PVP.
Aye, the triangle issue is like a dom fighting with 2 arms tied behind their back while the corruptor has a tag team partner with horseshoes in his boxing gloves ODing on steroids throwing groin punches to boot. 
Only question on everyones mind is does the Ref (devs) think everyone should be fighting like the dom? Or does the Ref think that everyone should be fighting like Corr.
It really depends on your mindset what you think. It's a viable AT. However, if you're one of those that just has to do the most damage all of the time then a Dom probably isn't for you. Try a Brute, Blaster or Scrapper. Doms really do kick in at the higher levels, even without dom up.
Total Focus is a hold, right?
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Psionic Assault can easily hit the recharge debuff cap. Psychic Shockwave alone can easily hit the cap.
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I'm sorry; I overstated my case here. I don't actually know that Shockwave can hit the recharge cap on its own, and it probably can't. My apologies for adding more misinformation to the heap.
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The other thing is, I think you're badly overestimating how effective -recharge is for damage mitigation. It's nearly useless against +4 Heroes that can one-shot any of your party members. Dominators don't bring any real damage mitigation - +HP, +Def, +Res, -Dmg, or -Acc powers - that are the only things currently allowing people to successfully complete the LRSF. Hence, as it is now, another Corruptor is ALWAYS better than adding a Dominator to your LRSF team.
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The other thing is, I think you're badly overestimating how effective -recharge is for damage mitigation. It's nearly useless against +4 Heroes that can one-shot any of your party members.
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Nearly useless on it's own; in cooperation with -tohit and -damage it's actually incredibly effective.
While I definitely feel Dominators get the short end of the stick on this issue, I don't want to understate their capabilities. -Recharge is an excellent addition to a team setup, it's just the equivalent of Sonic Resonance for Corruptors: it makes a good setup better, rather than carrying the team on it's own.
-Recharge is big damage mitigation over time, it just needs to be working in cooperation with other debuffs to realize it's potential against +4 Archvillains.
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I must say that after months of trying to point out overall team-PvE effectiveness issues relative to other AT's, I find this new topic almost funny.
Rather than admit doms may be underpowered, the new argument is that corruptors are overpowered.
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However funny this may appear, it is a valid point of view. Its the flip side of the same mirror. If (as some say) corruptors can out control a dom, its clearly a design flaw with corruptors, as they should have no ability to get close to dom level of control. Plus, controls have been nuked as too strong (vs AVs, AOE holds, etc), so if they have more controls than doms, surely corruptors need nerf. Not saying I agree with it, but its surely reasonable.
I dont know ice corruptors, so will stick with a dark corruptor.
The reason I see my dark corrutor as strong on a team, is not the damage (dark damage really isnt that good, IMO), but the AOE debuffs.
You have tar patch (- resistance and slow), darkest night (-damage, -acc), and shadowfall has an aoe buff (+defense and +resistance). Discounting the pet, thats a decent amount of damage reduced via +resist +def on team, -damage and -acc on mobs. Further, taking the case of 5 of them on a team, you now have all of the AVs bottomed out, because all of these effects overlap.
To me, its the overlap and triangles (ie. holds dont work) that really make the difference. If our AOE holds could be made perma, so 5 doms could spam AOE holds and the AVs didnt have triangles, then we would be as welcome as corruptors on the LRSF.
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The problem is not that corruptors can out control a dom.
Because, on paper they just can't.
The problem is that, Dom's don't have enough control to make up for the fact that all you need is 6 mag to get the control you need, and the fact that the next step is 50+ mag.
If dom powers were mag 6-7 BEFORE domination. Then.. You'd find that doms had enough of a mag over-load to do something about AV's.
The other option btw... is this:
Minion mag -1
Lt mag -2
Boss mag -5
EB mag -8
AV mag -8 + Triangle buff
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Whether or not a dom can "out-control" a corruptor is irrelevant because a corruptor can provide enough control.
Consider brutes. A granite brute can tank the entire last mission of the RSF. Personally, while I consider that to be clearly "out-controlling" a dominator, all that matters is that it's enough control. So... are brutes overpowered as well?
I can't think of a single situation in the game where a dominator is a better choice for a teammate than a corruptor (except for stalker heavy teams), but for months trying to get that point out on these forums got me hate-mail.
Corruptors are not overpowered. They have a role and they fulfill it. As do Brutes.
Dominators are underpowered. I wish they were not. But they are.
The RSF isn't an unfair encounter, it's simply a magnifying glass to show what the ATs are capable of.
I'm not trying to troll, I sincerely would like to see something changed - mostly the click-nature of the inherent - to make what is clearly a team-oriented AT useful in that scenario. But the reality is that currently, on a good 8-man team, a dominator adds exactly nothing. The fact that people are seeing this same problem in RSF is no surprise to me. The AT needs a boost. Badly.
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Corruptors are not overpowered.
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IMO correct, but (de)buff in it's current incarnation is tho...
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Dominators are underpowered
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again, IMO correct, but mez in it's current incarnation is tho...
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I can't think of a single situation in the game where a dominator is a better choice for a teammate than a corruptor (except for stalker heavy teams), but for months trying to get that point out on these forums got me hate-mail
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wow, hatemail? really? and i feel kinda guilty about all my semi-grouchy posts.
anyway, as has been pointed out in this thread, you can remove the word 'dominator' and replace it with 'stalker', 'brute', and 'master mind' and it will still hold (mostly) true. i've been saying for months that this is the case with about as much success...minus the hate mail (they just nail me in the thread until it's locked or deleted).
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The RSF isn't an unfair encounter, it's simply a magnifying glass to show what the ATs are capable of
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and since you can replace any AT with a 'ruptor and be AT LEAST as successful i'd say that's indicative of a overpowerment with 'ruptors as opposed to other AT's being underpowered.
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The AT needs a boost. Badly.
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say we do get a 'boost' to be 'equal to' or, more exactly 'contribute asmuch to a team as' 'ruptors. would we be the equal of a brute too? or would we then have to 'boost' brutes? then, when those three are 'balanced' do you think MM's and stalkers will be fine?
now, apply the same artifical inhibitors to (de)buff as are currently applied to mez. other than 'toning down' the mobs that are made so tough just so (de)buffers cant just 'god mode' thru them and would you still see the inbalances?
Your Insanity May Vary...and if they did both the 'loosing' of mez's leashing and 'tightnin' of (de)buffs leash, could it be that 'trollers and 'ruptors could be brought into line with the other AT's all while giving dominators 'something (more IMO, cuz i can actually see [as can most people i've teamed with BTW] what i can bring to teams) to bring to teams'?
Heres my issue with your statment
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I can't think of a single situation in the game where a dominator is a better choice for a teammate than a corruptor
[/ QUOTE ]You can take out "dominator" in the statment and replace it with ANY VILLIAN AT and the statment would still ring true.
MMs have weaker secondarys, Brutes damage while great has to ramp up before it gets there (GG fury), and stalkers....poor stalkers simply cant compete with the damage a Corruptor can put out (what in a Stalkers arsenal can compete with fire breath, fireball, rain of fire, and blaze when its been augmented to rediculose levels by the likes of fulcrumshift?)
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Corruptors are not overpowered. They have a role and they fulfill it. As do Brutes.
[/ QUOTE ]Well, Corrs can do damage, they can do croud control, the can do buffs, they can do debuffs, they can heal damage that the other abilitys let slip through, soo..if they can do all this what else is there? And more importantly what can any other AT bring to the table that a well speced corruptor cant?
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Dominators are underpowered. I wish they were not. But they are.
[/ QUOTE ] compared to corruptors yes they are, but then so is everyone else.
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The RSF isn't an unfair encounter, it's simply a magnifying glass to show what the ATs are capable of.
[/ QUOTE ]Unfair or not it just highlights issues with this game and its balance(or lack there of). You can quite simply take 8 corruptors into that mission and have a reasonable chance to beat it. Can the same statment be made for any other AT?
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I'm not trying to troll, I sincerely would like to see something changed - mostly the click-nature of the inherent - to make what is clearly a team-oriented AT useful in that scenario. But the reality is that currently, on a good 8-man team, a dominator adds exactly nothing. The fact that people are seeing this same problem in RSF is no surprise to me. The AT needs a boost. Badly.
[/ QUOTE ]I understand your statements but you have to understand that if you took a hard honest look at each AT and see what each one brings to a mission like the RSF , you will find that some bring so much to it, they litterally have no need for any other AT for assistance.
The whole problem with this game in general is that some ATs are so good at everything that encounters need to be geared to provide a challenge for them, so what happens if the other ATs arnt as lucky? Everything is now geared for tankmages and all the mobs have tremendous abilitys to hit, to do damage and to take damage all because 1 AT has the ability to deal with all the contengencys the game throws at it.
Yes you can take a look at your AT that cant compete with the mobs geared for the tankmages ..or you can just take a look at the tankmages themselves breaking the curve for everyone else.
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Heres my issue with your statment
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I can't think of a single situation in the game where a dominator is a better choice for a teammate than a corruptor
[/ QUOTE ]You can take out "dominator" in the statment and replace it with ANY VILLIAN AT and the statment would still ring true.
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You could say that, but you'd be wrong. Masterminds can absorb alpha, which Corruptors - debuffs or not - simply can't do against some of the harder minion types. Pets don't get debt and using them as damage sponges is one of the only ways fragile Villain ATs can survive fighting against some of the harder AVs in the game. They also do buff and debuff, if not quite at the levels Corruptors can, well enough to be valuable to a team, especially if they're using a set like Trick Arrow or Poison that Corruptors don't get access to. Brutes, with their astronomical damage cap and high caps for HP and res, are actually a great addition to a Corruptor team. They can make better use of Forge and Fulcrum Shift than another Corruptor would be able to, with buffs they can tank in a pinch, and once they get the Fury bar going they can output consistently more DPS than a Corruptor can. When I'm making an LRSF team, I am happy to add MMs and Brutes.
A Dominator, or a Stalker? Nah, not if I want to win.
Basically, it seems like you're trying to blame the problems that Dominators have on Corruptors. If that's the case, where's the "Do brutes suck like people say they do?" and "Do masterminds suck like people say they do?" threads?
Not trying to blaim Doms problems on Corruptors, but the simple fact is that Corruptors as a whole bring far to much to the table. What can you reasonably give Dominators to compete with the level of damage, support and mitigation a corruptor provides?
Whats really funny to me, a study of Irony, is to use Dominator tactics on */Kinetics or */Storm controllers. Grab two attacks (flurry and air superiority work best) to simulate the Dominators heavy HtH attacks and control one, debuff another then immobilize and kill a third.
Do it, I dare you!
Then come back and say dominators don't need a damage buff to make them even close to parity!!
The sad thing is, the fast cycling Power Pool attacks are even better than Ice Sword/Total Focus in terms of DPE!
(imho <>ymmv)
I'm only playing controllers whil waiting Patiently (almost) on Dominators to get some long deserved Dev Love!!
People sometimes tell me I'm both pessimistic and paranoid but I think that's just because all you optimists are out to get me.
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It's not slight. Psi has powerful recharge debuffs ... Only Cold Domination has significantly better -rech than Psionic Assault.
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Hold on a second, there, partner! Let's look at the facts a second, shall we?
Psychic Scream - it has a 50% recharge debuff that lasts for ten seconds. PS can recharge in 12 - using hasten or having a recharge enhancement would allow it to be perma.
Psychic Shockwave - it also has a 50% recharge debuff, but it lasts for twenty seconds. PSW can recharge in 10 seconds, so it can stack with itself easily, or with PS.
Also, both powers are capable of hitting up to 10 targets, so they could fully debuff the recharge on many enemies.
Also, Psi Dart debuffs recharge rates by 30%, which lasts 5 seconds and recharges in 1.5. A cheap power that recycles fast and can easily triple-stack with itself, permanently, resulting in a single-target -recharge debuff of 90%.
Mind Probe and Mental Blast also have -recharge components (40% for 6 seconds and 30% for 6 seconds, respectively).
Compare all of this to Cold Domination:
The Snow Storm toggle - it has a 50% recharge debuff that can hit multiple enemies - up to 16.
The other primary -recharge debuff power is Infridigate, which has a -recharge debuff rate of 70% for 20 seconds. The Cold Domination Corruptor is likely to try to stack Infrigidate with Snow Storm to floor recharge rates (much like the Psionic Assault dominator would use PS and PSW to floor recharge rates). BUT! Infrigidate is single-target only, AND it has a recharge rate of 15 seconds. In other words, the Psionic Assault dominator could floor the recharge rates of multilple enemies much faster, much more consistently, than a Cold Domination Corruptor. Also, compared in isolation to Psi Dart, Psi Dart can debuff the recharge rate up to 90% by stacking it, surpassing the 70% recharge debuff that Infrigidate provides.
The other powers in /Cold that debuff recharge rates on multiple enemies have long recharges (Sleet and Heat Loss both debuff attack rates by 30%, but Sleet recharges in 60 seconds, and Heat Loss in 360 seconds).
In other words, a Psionic Assault dominator could do a better job than a /Cold corruptor of debuffing the recharge of many enemies at once. And isn't that very helpful in the final fight of the RSF?