Do dominators suck like people say they do?
By
Aleshanee_NA,
Posted on: 2006-07-05 13:59 in Dominators
well, if people are sometimes shortsited enough to fall for it, then it deserves to be pointed out for them to see...not that they will...
Your Insanity May Vary...
I agree with your point that just because someone comes in and makes a claim, does not mean everyone else has to disprove it. It works both ways, regardless of the claim.
Doms do not suck
Doms do suck
Disprove either of those claims.
Here is my opinion, for what it's worth:
The damage that Dominators do is good against all mobs. The controls are good against all but AV's/EB's with triangles.
Doms need a self-damage/tohit buff (ala Aim or Soul Drain) across all Assault sets, and the "triangle" mez protection on AV's/EB's needs to be looked at again in order to put control powers and sets alongside the other powers and sets.
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There is a reason for that, and it has nothing to do with people not knowing how to play their ATs
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yup. it's the artificial limitations implimented by gamemechanics on mezzes. to keep it from being way overpowered...like (de)buffs are currently IMO.
Your Insanity May Vary...
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I totally agree. Mez's are too binary? Well, the gamemechanics instituted to deal with only make them more binary. A more imaginative solution needs to be come up with, and many on these boards have done just that, its up to the devs to make some change.
Game Mechanics like Break Frees, Suppression and Purple Triangles were designed with Controllers in mind. Dominator secondaries were made with the control primary in mind, but applying game mechanics that were designed to deal with Controllers punishes Dominators in the extreme.
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at this point i'd be happy just to see (de)buff hampered/inhibited the same way...let the 'ruptors [censored] for once!!!!! and then they could loosen the restrictions on mez so that 'trollers are still 'balanced' (probably more balanced as the half of their set that is inhibited is the half that has not been continually improved...(de)buff!)
and yeah, i know why it happened (the part about keeping it from being WAY overpowered), and yeah they need to find a 'better way' to which i have no good solution (other than remove the limits so all the doomsayers can have a week or to of the tankmagedom they seem to clamer for).
Your Insanity May Vary...
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But it is sad to agree with the fact that after the 4th mish , and with out the log trick and the temp power( im not saying which) for single pulls, the 5th mish is damn near impoosible for teams with more than one stalker or dom on it.
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Yeah, what you are reporting is pretty much what everyone else is reporting who has actually done the TF and succeeded without the cheat -- that it is extremely difficult to succeed if more than 1 spot is taken up by a dom or Stalker.
Doms can, as you say, contribute to a Recluse team. The problem is that, without the damage and aggro management of 2 Brutes, and the debuffing of 5 corrs/MMs, it's virtually impossible to kill the heroes before they wipe the team. That means that there is, even on an otherwise ideal team, only one spot that can be spared for a dom or stalker.
Also, now that the cheat for hero levels has been fixed, I'm wondering how long the temporary power pull is going to last. People aren't mentioning the power, but I'm sure the devs can datamine to find out, if they don't know already. It's too bad -- if there were a way to pull 1 or 2 heroes at a time, then a team could succeed without having to have 2 Brutes and 5 debuffers.
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I agree with your point that just because someone comes in and makes a claim, does not mean everyone else has to disprove it
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not to detract from the rest of your post, but my point was about the aplication of subtle debating techniques...not so much if it can be answered as commenting on the 'subtext' and 'subliminal implications' within debating points.
Your Insanity May Vary... glass half empty/half full as applied to highfalutin debate...
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Just because the forum clique agrees on something and writes it in there, doesn't mean the other 99% of the playerbase automatically feels that way, or even a majority.
The truth is it's useless trying to argue with this forum's clique, so I don't even read or participate with that thread. What is the point? We will just get responses like yours in this thread.
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I think there is a big difference in perception between the people who belong to the top VGs on the one hand, and the people who play solo/PuGs on the other.
....because they don't have that much experience with other ATs or because they are not playing on the kind of teams where the differences show up so starkly.
I am fine with people having different perceptions of the AT, but I think it's too bad that the people who support doms sometimes seem to feel so beleaguered that they resort to insults and invective.
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Wanted to reply to these two posts specifically. The first dismisses the one and only problems/solutions thread that seeks a reasonable middle ground. It wants concensus and proven issues, not hyperbole and ranting. It avoids proposing solutions to try to limit any flamming and arguing. If thats bad to post in, then I support your not posting whole heartedly.
Second, I love a post complaining about people being attacked, while impling total ignorance on anyone who doesnt agree with your position. Top VG members - being who exactly?
Further, its really independant of who they are. This is a simple "you agree with me, or are one of those ignorant people that dont know what other ATs play like, or are just used to being on poor teams". Either way, it dismisses out of hand any opinion or experience that disagrees with the poster.
I have a simple position on this. Doms do as good as any AT, outside of AV fights and PVP, which is easy to understand as the devs have instituted methods to eliminate controls (our primary) in both of those cases (triangles and BFs). In other words, doms are reasonably balanced on the whole when allowed to use their powers. This is why when I fight an AV/EB, I simply take 4 lucks and start fighting. The controls dont help in the fight, due to triangles. In PVP, its clear why they cant let holds work for the full duration, but it (BFs) still screws the AT over.
Sadly, the LRSF is one case where not being allowed to use your powers (ie holds) will really be determintal to your team. I think its not hard to see that stalkers and doms would be left out of this SF, and dont understand the devs thinking on this at all.
Last point - Hami raids need 1 tank, some healers, and a boat load of controllers. Scrappers can replace the tank, but arent needed at all. Blasters arent required, though they can blow stuff up well (always appreciated). If you arent the one tank for the Hami, tanks are just luggage. However, Hami is set up to be a massive lag fest, so luggage is all over the place, and as long as you damage hami, you get your HO.
The LRSF should be less laggy, and more fun than a hami raid. However, they have made it so 2 classes are a drag on it. Or, this SF is tough enough to clearly show the gaps in the system, maybe. In any case, it creates a showcase for corruptors, while leaving doms and stalkers out of it.
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The first dismisses the one and only problems/solutions thread that seeks a reasonable middle ground. It wants concensus and proven issues, not hyperbole and ranting.
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Consensus among whom? If the issues were more accurate, and the clique more reasonable I would have no problems with such a thread.
Among everyone. That's what consensus means, duh. Lillicae adds the issues that everyone can agree on. If you're having problems with people taking you seriously, may I suggest that it may have less to do with cliques and more to do with you insulting people?
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The first dismisses the one and only problems/solutions thread that seeks a reasonable middle ground. It wants concensus and proven issues, not hyperbole and ranting.
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Consensus among whom? If the issues were more accurate, and the clique more reasonable I would have no problems with such a thread.
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i believe you mean cabal, not clique...
Your Insanity May Vary...of to the dom cave to opress more opinions...
No, a clique is what I see. Like when several members start flaming 515A just to be one of the "cool kids", even if the post is purely neutral. 
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It's too bad -- if there were a way to pull 1 or 2 heroes at a time, then a team could succeed without having to have 2 Brutes and 5 debuffers.
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I wonder if 2 Brutes and 5 Dominators could mitigate enough of the Damage while doing enough to complete the TF.
How may holds does it take to to hold all of the AVs. Holds are the key to Hammi. What if the team was 6 Doms and 2 kin or Rad Corruptors. 6 AOE holds and each man focusing on a ST might hold all the AVs the whole time, but could they do enough damage?
I think someone did a Mag Hold table that shows this. I believe it was 3 Dominators stacking their holds but I could be mistaken.
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The first dismisses the one and only problems/solutions thread that seeks a reasonable middle ground. It wants concensus and proven issues, not hyperbole and ranting.
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Consensus among whom? If the issues were more accurate, and the clique more reasonable I would have no problems with such a thread.
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Consenus of EVERYONE on the board. That is why its hard to get some issues into it.
Accuracy on the issues depends on who writes it as an issue, and then if the majority of people who post agree its an issue.
This means you have as much ability to try to change what is listed as anyone else. But, if its controversial (ie, plainly not supported by a clear majority), then you can post it somewhere else and argue its merits on its on, but its not in the thread.
I have had several things I wanted in it that didnt make it, as have others Im sure. But, on the whole, its the best single place for devs to go to see what is a problem that isnt just one or two vocal people's opinions.
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I wonder if 2 Brutes and 5 Dominators could mitigate enough of the Damage while doing enough to complete the TF.
How may holds does it take to to hold all of the AVs. Holds are the key to Hammi. What if the team was 6 Doms and 2 kin or Rad Corruptors. 6 AOE holds and each man focusing on a ST might hold all the AVs the whole time, but could they do enough damage?
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We don't know how many stacked holds it takes to hold any of the Heroes with triangles up (triangles are up a minimum of 2/3 of the time, some people have reported more). No one has reported being able to use an ST hold to hold even 1 of the level 54 Heros through triangles. Sleeps might work -- but corrs have sleeps too.
As for the damage aspect of it, some of the debuffs that are most important on the TF are defense, resistance, and regen. Those make the Heroes easier to hit and take more damage, and also gain health back slower, so that much less damage is needed to kill them. Corr buffs can also help the Brutes hit the damage cap. A capped aoe Foot Stomp is an awesome thing to see.
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Sleeps might work -- but corrs have sleeps too.
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Siren's Song is a strength 3 sleep, not enough to stop an AV. It deals damage, so the sleep is not stackable. I did not find any other corruptor sleeps, but I may have simply overlooked them. Do corruptors have any sleeps that can actually affect an AV? If not, this claim is a red herring.
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As for the damage aspect of it, some of the debuffs that are most important on the TF are defense, resistance, and regen.
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Many dominators (e.g., practically all /psi doms) have a very strong regeneration and recovery debuff. If you also consider defense, many dominators (e.g., all psi and ice doms) have strong recharge debuffs.
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It's too bad -- if there were a way to pull 1 or 2 heroes at a time, then a team could succeed without having to have 2 Brutes and 5 debuffers.
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I wonder if 2 Brutes and 5 Dominators could mitigate enough of the Damage while doing enough to complete the TF.
How may holds does it take to to hold all of the AVs. Holds are the key to Hammi. What if the team was 6 Doms and 2 kin or Rad Corruptors. 6 AOE holds and each man focusing on a ST might hold all the AVs the whole time, but could they do enough damage?
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Not gonna happen under normal circumstances.
Against +4's, a non-dominated dominator can _almost_ keep mag-9 indefinitely (there are occasional slips).
So 6 dominators, stacking single-targets = mag-48.
Not enough to perma-hold _one_ AV.
If they start hitting power boost, hasten, domination, and/or megalomaniac? Then it's anybody's guess, but it's by no means a long-term solution.
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
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As for the damage aspect of it, some of the debuffs that are most important on the TF are defense, resistance, and regen.
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Many dominators (e.g., practically all /psi doms) have a very strong regeneration and recovery debuff. If you also consider defense, many dominators (e.g., all psi and ice doms) have strong recharge debuffs.
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Let's compare a /psi dom to a /rad corr. The /psi dom has one power, Drain Psyche, that will halt regen for a while. The /psi attacks also have a slight debuff effect. The /rad corr has an aoe power, Lingering Radiation, that stops regen for as long as Drain Psyche and also has a powerful slow. The rad corr also has an auto-hit aoe defense/tohit debuff and an auto-hit aoe resistance debuff. The rad corr also has a buff that increases team recharge and end gain, and a heal. The rad corr also has an aoe disorient with a huge range. The rad corr also has a rez that can put a team member back into the fight at full health and strength. And (very handy for the Recluse) a rad corr has a power that deals massive destruction when the toon gets killed. And that's all just from the secondary. The corr primaries also have debuff effects -- for example, Sonic debuffs resistance. That's in addition to their higher damage.
So with as many abilitys as the example corruptor has, it goes a long way in explaining why the SF is as tough as it is. Assuming the Devs designed the SF around having multiple classes that fall into the Tank Mage syndrome (read corruptors) they really need to have a hard long look at what the corruptor class brings to the table as opposed to other classes.
I mean you pretty much are saying that they bring heals debuffs, damage, rez, controls,buffs & even pets now. No other Villain class can bring as much to the table as a corruptor if what you are saying is true.
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The /psi attacks also have a slight debuff effect.
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It's not slight. Psi has powerful recharge debuffs, at least as good as Ice Blast. Only Cold Domination has significantly better -rech than Psionic Assault. Oh, and that's only from the secondary. Like corruptors, many dominators also have significant debuffs in their primaries, like slow in Gravity and Ice. You're showing bias again.
EDIT: Good point, Tez!
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The /psi attacks also have a slight debuff effect.
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It's not slight. Psi has powerful recharge debuffs, at least as good as Ice Blast. Only Cold Domination has significantly better -rech than Psionic Assault. Oh, and that's only from the secondary. Like corruptors, many dominators also have significant debuffs in their primaries, like slow in Gravity and Ice. You're showing bias again.
EDIT: Good point, Tez!
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If you compare the debuff effects in the corr attacks against the debuff effects in the dom attacks, it is at best a wash. That leaves you with one power -- Drain Psyche -- that one dom set has, that would be a valuable debuff on the Recluse. Compare that to the numerous debuffs that a debuffing corr such as /rad or /cold or /dark has, and you can see that /psi doms cannot compare to corrs for debuffing ability. Not to mention buffing, healing, rezzing, and nuking.
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If you compare the debuff effects in the corr attacks against the debuff effects in the dom attacks, it is at best a wash.
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Psionic Assault can easily hit the recharge debuff cap. Psychic Shockwave alone can easily hit the cap. Calling that "slight" is misleading. Saying it's "at best a wash" is misleading.
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That leaves you with one power -- Drain Psyche -- that one dom set has, that would be a valuable debuff on the Recluse.
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Except for Shockwave, right? And Gravity Control, Ice Control, and Icy Assault? Or are you saying that speed debuffs are not valuable?
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Compare that to the numerous debuffs that a debuffing corr such as /rad or /cold or /dark has, and you can see that /psi doms cannot compare to corrs for debuffing ability. Not to mention buffing, healing, rezzing, and nuking.
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Compaire a Poison Master Mind debuff potential to a /rad corruptor and the corruptor wins.
Compare a Brutes damage to a Corruptors damage (especially after buffs and debuffs are in place)
Compare a Stalkers Burst Damage to an Ice Primary Burst Corruptors damage.
The truth of the matter is that Corruptors are are able to be competative with every AT City of Villains has to offer and in many cases surpass other ATs abilitys with a bit more safty to boot.
Doms get mez resist? Corruptors got that (Sonic or Traps secondary). Stalkers get criticals? Corruptors get Scourge. Masterminds get pets? Corruptors can have 3 (including shivan). Do Corruptors get Holds, Slows, Rezes, Intangability trap powers? Yes yes yes & yes.
Why get a brute when the AVs "to hit" has been floored, his damage is debuffed and his attacks come as often as once in a blue moon?
Why get a stalker when you can just get Ice Corruptors?
Why get a Mastermind when the best their secondary has to offer is Poison (which rad does better anyway) and the dark corruptor can field 3 pets (btw, does the Mu Guardian cast Volt Sentinal? if so thats 4).
Really, comparing Doms or any AT to Corruptors is about as flawed as comparing them to Controllers. Cors & Cons have all they need without having to look outside of their own AT. And if the devs design any content with those 2 ATs in mind, they are going to have to tune it to be substancially harder than it should be and with good reason. So whats a dev to do...redesign each encounter for 1 or 2 tankmage classes? Or just reevaluate the said tank mage classes?
The corr attack powers have debuff effects, and so do the dom attack powers. For example, all Sonic attacks debuff resistance. I don't know whether corr or dom attack debuffs are stronger, but since these are all secondary effects of powers that are basically attacks, let's assume that they about average out. (Actually, from playing corrs and doms, it seems to me that the debuff effects of the corr attacks are much more noticeable than the dom attacks, but let's assume for purposes of this discussion that they are equal).
That leaves us comparing the actual (non-attack) debuffs. Other than the attack powers, Doms only have one power in one set (that I'm aware of) that is a debuff to resistance, defense, or regen, and that is Drain Psyche. Corrs have far more debuff powers. It's not even close.
Even if doms did in fact have debuffs that were equal to what corrs can do, teams would still pick corrs over doms because corrs can heal, buff, and rezz, as well as do more damage. It's just that the debuffing aspect is particularly important to the Recluse.
Corruptors are outstanding on teams because their buffs and debuffs can stack. Solo, the average corr probably isn't any better than a level 40 dom, and corrs solo worse than MMs, Brutes, or Stalkers.
The devs don't seem to be too concerned with toons that perform extremely well on teams. I guess that's because they want to encourage teaming. They probably feel that the relative weakness of corrs for soloing compensates for their uberness on teams.
Done the Lord recluse Sf now 17 times. tried 7 times before the regen patch and 10 times after the regen patch. Completed it 6 times after the Regen patch. The most doms we had on the team were 2 and the most stalkers we had on a team were 1.
Doms help to hold the av's or heros and we usually had them held more than 33% of the time. I would even push 40% for some of the team make ups we were on. But it is sad to agree with the fact that after the 4th mish , and with out the log trick and the temp power( im not saying which) for single pulls, the 5th mish is damn near impoosible for teams with more than one stalker or dom on it.
52's arent a problem with good team work. 54's are like waiting for Ice to melt at the north pole. I have done the sf (before the log trick patch mind you), with 2 inv brutes,1 Brute only ( had to use temp ower for that one) and 2 doms. I was working with different setups to prove that it could be done with out just corrs and brutes. It really sucks that the best Combo for this sf are corrs and brutes. Where in ,you can do the hami raid with all the AT's .