Did Frostfire get a raw deal?
By
Acyl,
Posted on: 2006-06-28 15:10 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Let's say that you're hiking and you stumble across someone who's dangling over a cliff. You try to help pull the guy up, but you lose your grip and he falls to his death. Should you do jail time for that?
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The precident to this is already set, I cant remember which state it was but if your walk way is snowed up, you can either not shovel it and be free of any liabilities for resultant accidents, or you can act, shovel the walk way clear, and thus set up yourself up to be sued by anyone that uses that walk way and injures themselves.
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I don't know... he caused the deaths of at least 3 people...
I mean, how would the law treat him if, instead of superpowers, he was just some kid who wanted to be a cop, and tryed to stop a hold up with a gun, and 3 people died? I think the kid would be seeing some serious jail time...
Frostfire was untraind... Unregestered... and inexpearined... and he killed 3 people. No way he should to gotten off scott free like he wanted. Good intentions are one thing, but, common since should still be execrised, and 3 lives should be considered disposible. Opps i'm sorry, my bad, shouldn't be enought.
And the fact he wanted to walk, and felt wrong by being punished, showed something about his Char. He apperently wasn't remorsful, which shows me he didn't really care about them people.
I don't feel sorry for him. He should have paid his dues, and trid to make ammands. Instead, he turned evil. No, symphtiy here. I look forward to kicking him around when i get home. 
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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I believe the quote is:
"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."
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This is not actually true. The road to Hell is paved with frozen door-to-door salesmen. On weekends many of the younger demons go ice skating down it. -Terry Prachett and Neil Gaiman
How are they going to jail Frostfire for this, when Blue Steel doesn't even lose his badge for what he did.
Blue Steel never caused harm to innocents, however. You have to remember that the Clockwork under the soon-to-be-King's command had killed a police officer (or was it more than one?). While Blue Steel certainly overreacted he A) did not assault innocents and B) felt rather a lot of remorse afterwards.
While both incidents are messed up to some extent, it's not quite the same thing.
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lol. Good for them.
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Oh, I hope you're joking.
And I really don't think the state has an advantage as such in criminal trial. Whatever perks you get as the prosecution balance out from having a pretty fearsome burden of proof.
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Lord Vetinari, Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett.
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I wonder how many attorneys got screwed by entering the profession after watching LA Law or Law & Order, but *not* Court TV.
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I have heard of prosecutors complaining that CSI has caused some jurors to demand slam-dunk evidence that is sometimes impossible to get.
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That ones very much true. When I was on Jury Duty last year, the prosecutor went on a 2 minute explentation to remind the jury that "This is NOT CSI. There's not going to be precise DNA Evidence or open-and-shut stuff like on that show. This is real life. You just need 'beyond a reasonable doubt' to convict him." which he made sure to mention a number of times so that it sunk in. Luckily the entire jury was made up of reasonable people and were able to look at the case and evidence that way and didn't need reminding.
(The case was a stolen gun from a neighbor. THere was a broken window, trail of blood from the back door/window to the bedroom where the missing gun was, and the trail of blood led back to the guy's appartment, where the cop found him asleep on the couch, hand still bleeding and poorly bandaged. . . it took us all of 15 minutes to descide the guy was guilty. The judge told us after the case that we were the fasted jury to go to deliberation that she's ever had! XD)
I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
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1) Arson requires the specific intent to cause harm. If the prosecutor and judge knew that he had no intent to cause harm he had no business being prosecuted for Arson. Both the prosecutor and judge were in derogation of their oath.
2) This case should have been brought as a reckless homicide. However even there, there was insufficient evidence that the defendant knew that his actions were likely to cause the harm inflicted. This is necessary when the government alleges reckless conduct. The defendant was a teenager and there is no evidence that he knew the extent of his powers.
3) As a juvenile who should not have been charged with an intentional crime, he should have been charged as a juvenile. Even assuming conviction, he should have been remanded to juvenile custody until 21.
He got railroaded.
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Oh Geko! I love when you talk like an attorney! Did I ever tell you my ambition is to marry an attorney, drive a cadillac, and play coh all day long? Interested? :-P
I'm sorry but you clearly violated the exclamation point rule. You clearly used less then 15, thus your statement becomes one of less importance. In order for anyone to take you seriuosly you must use 15, or more, exclamation points in a row.
- Go_sabres
railroaded? I think so
wreckless endangerment? definitely, he didn't know the extents of his powers and didn't have full control over them
stupid for not taking the 5 years? definitely
though I do question his height...6'10" o_O
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I wonder how many attorneys got screwed by entering the profession after watching LA Law or Law & Order, but *not* Court TV.
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I have heard of prosecutors complaining that CSI has caused some jurors to demand slam-dunk evidence that is sometimes impossible to get.
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That ones very much true. When I was on Jury Duty last year, the prosecutor went on a 2 minute explentation to remind the jury that "This is NOT CSI. There's not going to be precise DNA Evidence or open-and-shut stuff like on that show. This is real life. You just need 'beyond a reasonable doubt' to convict him." which he made sure to mention a number of times so that it sunk in. Luckily the entire jury was made up of reasonable people and were able to look at the case and evidence that way and didn't need reminding.
(The case was a stolen gun from a neighbor. THere was a broken window, trail of blood from the back door/window to the bedroom where the missing gun was, and the trail of blood led back to the guy's appartment, where the cop found him asleep on the couch, hand still bleeding and poorly bandaged. . . it took us all of 15 minutes to descide the guy was guilty. The judge told us after the case that we were the fasted jury to go to deliberation that she's ever had! XD)
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LOL. So after being warned against expecting "open and shut stuff", you were presented with "open and shut stuff"? The scenario you describe sounds exactly like a CSI case.
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I wonder how many attorneys got screwed by entering the profession after watching LA Law or Law & Order, but *not* Court TV.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have heard of prosecutors complaining that CSI has caused some jurors to demand slam-dunk evidence that is sometimes impossible to get.
[/ QUOTE ]
That ones very much true. When I was on Jury Duty last year, the prosecutor went on a 2 minute explentation to remind the jury that "This is NOT CSI. There's not going to be precise DNA Evidence or open-and-shut stuff like on that show. This is real life. You just need 'beyond a reasonable doubt' to convict him." which he made sure to mention a number of times so that it sunk in. Luckily the entire jury was made up of reasonable people and were able to look at the case and evidence that way and didn't need reminding.
(The case was a stolen gun from a neighbor. THere was a broken window, trail of blood from the back door/window to the bedroom where the missing gun was, and the trail of blood led back to the guy's appartment, where the cop found him asleep on the couch, hand still bleeding and poorly bandaged. . . it took us all of 15 minutes to descide the guy was guilty. The judge told us after the case that we were the fasted jury to go to deliberation that she's ever had! XD)
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LOL. So after being warned against expecting "open and shut stuff", you were presented with "open and shut stuff"? The scenario you describe sounds exactly like a CSI case.
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By the catapillars hooka you WILL smile!
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1) Arson requires the specific intent to cause harm. If the prosecutor and judge knew that he had no intent to cause harm he had no business being prosecuted for Arson. Both the prosecutor and judge were in derogation of their oath.
2) This case should have been brought as a reckless homicide. However even there, there was insufficient evidence that the defendant knew that his actions were likely to cause the harm inflicted. This is necessary when the government alleges reckless conduct. The defendant was a teenager and there is no evidence that he knew the extent of his powers.
3) As a juvenile who should not have been charged with an intentional crime, he should have been charged as a juvenile. Even assuming conviction, he should have been remanded to juvenile custody until 21.
He got railroaded.
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Oh Geko! I love when you talk like an attorney! Did I ever tell you my ambition is to marry an attorney, drive a cadillac, and play coh all day long? Interested? :-P
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lol. Good for them.
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Oh, I hope you're joking.
And I really don't think the state has an advantage as such in criminal trial. Whatever perks you get as the prosecution balance out from having a pretty fearsome burden of proof.
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No. I was joking about CSI, but prosecutors have the entire apparatus of the state behind them, plus the known presumption (at least pre-CSI) that jurors are predisposed to believe authority figures.
I live in Illinois where at least 13 men in as many years were found to have been innocent of crimes for which they were sentenced to death. You read the stories and you see what evidence the prosecuters had and it's just shocking.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Also please note that the EvilGeko is a left-wing progressive.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
both the ethics and practices of prosecutors are wildly variable from locale to locale. The quality of available defense attorneys, particularly public defenders, varies a lot too.
For example I think in one death penalty case it was the lawyer's first case after obtaining a degree through the mail.
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I live in Illinois where at least 13 men in as many years were found to have been innocent of crimes for which they were sentenced to death. You read the stories and you see what evidence the prosecuters had and it's just shocking.
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Up here in Wisconsin there was a very high-profile case recently where a man was released after serving 18 years for a sexual assault he didn't commit. The prosecution's evidence was basically that the victim picked him out of a lineup. The defense had a dozen eyewitnesses that swore he was somewhere else when the crime occurred, many of them not his personal friends. The sheriff's office also had another suspect, and one with a history of committing sexual assault, but for some reason they didn't follow that lead.
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Also please note that the EvilGeko is a left-wing progressive.
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You say that like it's a bad thing.
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both the ethics and practices of prosecutors are wildly variable from locale to locale.
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I think the problem is partially that too many of my soon-to-be-bretheren are basically overgrown hall monitors who enjoy rules for the sake of rules.
I've always tried to cleave closer to the "officer of the court" model of ethical behavior, and I hate prosecutors who give the field a bad name.
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Lord Vetinari, Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett.
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It's called the CSI Effect, and it's VERY real.
I've heard from prosecutors who have gotten cases where they literally apprehended the guy with the weapon AND the loot -- but the jurors acquitted because the prosecution didn't offer DNA evidence.
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lol. Good for them. The State gets a lot of advantages in criminal trials, now the wicked have a new Champion: CSI!!!
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So you are acutally happy that a person caught with the loot and the gun (making him an armed robber) was set free to be an armed robber again?
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Jenkins is the incarnate of the wine god Bacchus. You have nothing to worry about.
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Could be something like Maria Jenkin's nephew.
it may have been too much when considering the lack of intent, but really, the deal they offered was probably in place more because they wanted to give him an acceptable way to avoid the longer sentence.
Too many people assume that law is about morality. It is not, law is about order. This is not to say that the law does not care about morality, but on the hierarchy of needs morality is above order. Order is the foundation on which morality builds, without it, you would have good people like always but in such an anarchic environment most people would be too concerned with their own survival to really be able to afford morality, even if they understand it.
In this case, Frostfire's actions were such that there needed to be a punishment or else others would be see that he got away with it and be a bit more lax in their manner of action. There would be more such accidents. It is the same reason their are laws against vigilantism and such in the real world. There has to be penalties for rash behaviors that end in unintended results, or else fewer people would think before they act.
Frostfire was an example prosecution. Such things are necessary. It is not a matter of "you only want to make an example of", it is a matter of "you must make an example of." The consequences otherwise are a larger number of similar events and more deaths.
You can't eliminate recklessness, and you can even gloss over some minor examples. But once you have massive property loss (if it was an apartment building, that means he may have ruined someone's business as well as rendered many others homeless) and deaths, then the government must respond even if the agents of the government don't feel it was anything more than a terrible accident.
Frostfire should have taken the 5 years, they were being kind.
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"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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Jenkins is the incarnate of the wine god Bacchus. You have nothing to worry about.
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Could be something like Maria Jenkin's nephew.
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Son of Maria. Chris Jenkins' brother.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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It's called the CSI Effect, and it's VERY real.
I've heard from prosecutors who have gotten cases where they literally apprehended the guy with the weapon AND the loot -- but the jurors acquitted because the prosecution didn't offer DNA evidence.
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lol. Good for them. The State gets a lot of advantages in criminal trials, now the wicked have a new Champion: CSI!!!
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So you are acutally happy that a person caught with the loot and the gun (making him an armed robber) was set free to be an armed robber again?
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You don't know that the defendant would do it again. The experience of being tried and getting a pass might have scared him straight. I do know the prison would have likely made the guy a better crook.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Not to introduce religious overtones, but in situations like this, I like to ask myself, "What would Superman do?" Would Superman just beat him and fly away. No, Superman would do EVERYTHING in his power to redeem him. He tried with the Toyman (with mixed results). He tried with Major Disaster (also with mixed results but slightly better). I loved the issue of Superman in which he offers redemption to 3 or 4 different villains, and only Major Disaster took him up on it. Regarding Frosfire, Batman would just beat him, Superman would try to redeem him. To be fair to Batman though, after Superman inspired him to change Frostfire would probably get help from and/or get involved w/ a Wayne foundation funded charity. Heck Bruce would probably give the guy a job once he was on the straight and narrow.
Perhaps the Devs should set up a mission in which slightly higher-level characters could attempt to somehow redeem Frostfire! It should somehow involve saving his loved ones, then somehow get him out of trouble with higher up criminals? Heroes don't just beat up the bad guys. Pro wrestlers do that. Heroes do good.
--- Ollie
Professionally certified pessimism expert
Statesman is someone who shouldn't rap ever, even if he's trying to help people out. -IolitePhoenix
Check out my Infinity toons at the Vis Viva family web page.
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It's called the CSI Effect, and it's VERY real.
I've heard from prosecutors who have gotten cases where they literally apprehended the guy with the weapon AND the loot -- but the jurors acquitted because the prosecution didn't offer DNA evidence.
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lol. Good for them. The State gets a lot of advantages in criminal trials, now the wicked have a new Champion: CSI!!!
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.