Did Frostfire get a raw deal?
By
Acyl,
Posted on: 2006-06-28 15:10 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[ QUOTE ]
Well, some might say his heart was in the right place - I say nonsense. The kid was in need of therapy. See, his motivation wasn't that pure - he wanted to be famous - that was why he was fixated on heroes. Helping people is what many heroes will try to do. And I'm not so sure Spider-man couldn't be considered a murderer by some courts, as it was his web that snagged Gwen Stacy in such a way as to snap her neck. If not murder, negligent homicide.
However, I think Frostfire being a minor should have weighed into this case. he should have been sentenced until the age of majority, which in most places is 18.
But, what can we really expect from a society that condones this "vigilante" behavior. Missions may be supported by Paragon's governing bodies, but surely, laying waste to a bunch of Outcasts who are doing nothing more than standing on a street in peaceful assembly is against our real life laws. But, they aren't in this game.
Let's not blur this line between fiction and facts.
[/ QUOTE ]
last i check they never conc confirm if it was the web that snaped her neck or if it was snaped before she felll
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Finally, he was already up against it for freezing the shopkeeper and robber, which probably killed them before the fire in any case.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think so. I've seen ice blasters and ice controllers freeze people in blocks of ice hundreds of times and have yet to see any of them arrested for murder. 
Given that Blue Battler is an AR/Fire Blaster who's taken down countless bad guys with Full Auto and Fire Sword only to run into them again later, I'm willing to think that Paragon City has the tech to handle Peoplecicles...
[/ QUOTE ]
but did they in '79?
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Many villains are the result of unfortunate circumstances. His origins are tragic, yes, but he is now a criminal who routinely does very bad things. Despite the things that have happened TO him, he still needs to be brought to justice.
[/ QUOTE ]
What does he do? He hangs out in an abandoned building and gets his butt kicked 20-30 times a day. I feel sorry for the poor guy!
[/ QUOTE ]
NOTE: Since his escape from the Zigursky Penitentiary, Frostfire is suspected to be directly involved in 10 Counts of Felony Assault, 2 Counts of Bookmaking, 4 Counts of Robbery, 3 Counts of Extortion, 3 Counts of Racketeering Violence, 8 Counts of Arson, 2 Counts of Murder
[/ QUOTE ]
All I know is that everyone I ask on the street says FF hangs out in the Hollows where he gets owned by noob heroes daily. Don't believe the man's hype.
STOP MUTANT DISCRIMINATION NOW!!! 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Good Samaritan laws would not protect you regarding property damage or manslaughter. Good Samaritan laws are not there to protect people who are arresting criminals. They are to protect people who are trying to saving lives. So if you pull someone from a burning vehicle and permanently cripple them because they had broken their spine, they can't sue you (probably heh).
Burning down a building isn't Arson unless they did it on purpose. Doing it on accident is still a crime though. Just as killing someone isn't Murder unless there is forethought.
What Frostfire was guilty of is reckless endangerment. This is the same as the idiot old man that drove through Farmer's Market in LA at 60 miles an hour because he couldn't see what he was doing. His intentions don't matter, what he DID was recklessly dangerous and put others at risk. Unfortunately for Frostfire he as a much worse attorney than the idiot old man. Plus Frostfire didn't appear to show remorse. Juries don't like it when killers don't show remorse and Frostfire still maintained he did nothing wrong. He should have maintained that because he was young and trying to help he deserved a reduced or suspended sentence.
----------------------------
You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
as a sidenote, anyone else think its kind of weird that a 43 year old man is leading(what i had assumed to be) a teenage gang? I mean, common cannon for mutants is their mutation manifests in their teens. But if Frostie was 17 back in '79, he would be in his 40's today. Maybe they should retcon it to '89 or the mid 90's...
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
[ QUOTE ]
as a sidenote, anyone else think its kind of weird that a 43 year old man is leading(what i had assumed to be) a teenage gang? I mean, common cannon for mutants is their mutation manifests in their teens. But if Frostie was 17 back in '79, he would be in his 40's today. Maybe they should retcon it to '89 or the mid 90's...
[/ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of RL street gangs led by guys in their 40s so it's not so strange, but if they wanted to keep the Outcasts = naughty mutant kids, then they should change his arrest date to 99' making FF the nice tender age of 24. Old enough to be a plausible leader, but young enough not to be old to his minions.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
as a sidenote, anyone else think its kind of weird that a 43 year old man is leading(what i had assumed to be) a teenage gang? I mean, common cannon for mutants is their mutation manifests in their teens. But if Frostie was 17 back in '79, he would be in his 40's today. Maybe they should retcon it to '89 or the mid 90's...
[/ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of RL street gangs led by guys in their 40s so it's not so strange, but if they wanted to keep the Outcasts = naughty mutant kids, then they should change his arrest date to 99' making FF the nice tender age of 24. Old enough to be a plausible leader, but young enough not to be old to his minions.
[/ QUOTE ]
would he really be considered old really if he can sick imps and jack forst on nyone who tire s to fight him?
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
as a sidenote, anyone else think its kind of weird that a 43 year old man is leading(what i had assumed to be) a teenage gang? I mean, common cannon for mutants is their mutation manifests in their teens. But if Frostie was 17 back in '79, he would be in his 40's today. Maybe they should retcon it to '89 or the mid 90's...
[/ QUOTE ]
Think Magneto. I am by no means an X-men philospher, but I do know that he was old enough to survive the Holocaust but he ran a band of mutants, including the Brotherhood of Mutants and Acolytes.
Frostfire got Punk'd, and I say file a lawsuit against the jock that did it to him.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
as a sidenote, anyone else think its kind of weird that a 43 year old man is leading(what i had assumed to be) a teenage gang? I mean, common cannon for mutants is their mutation manifests in their teens. But if Frostie was 17 back in '79, he would be in his 40's today. Maybe they should retcon it to '89 or the mid 90's...
[/ QUOTE ]
Think Magneto. I am by no means an X-men philospher, but I do know that he was old enough to survive the Holocaust but he ran a band of mutants, including the Brotherhood of Mutants and Acolytes.
Frostfire got Punk'd, and I say file a lawsuit against the jock that did it to him.
[/ QUOTE ]
When you are Magneto, no one cards you.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
as a sidenote, anyone else think its kind of weird that a 43 year old man is leading(what i had assumed to be) a teenage gang? I mean, common cannon for mutants is their mutation manifests in their teens. But if Frostie was 17 back in '79, he would be in his 40's today. Maybe they should retcon it to '89 or the mid 90's...
[/ QUOTE ]
Think Magneto. I am by no means an X-men philospher, but I do know that he was old enough to survive the Holocaust but he ran a band of mutants, including the Brotherhood of Mutants and Acolytes.
Frostfire got Punk'd, and I say file a lawsuit against the jock that did it to him.
[/ QUOTE ]
When you are Magneto, no one cards you.
[/ QUOTE ]
what about Xorn and Captian America?
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
as a sidenote, anyone else think its kind of weird that a 43 year old man is leading(what i had assumed to be) a teenage gang? I mean, common cannon for mutants is their mutation manifests in their teens. But if Frostie was 17 back in '79, he would be in his 40's today. Maybe they should retcon it to '89 or the mid 90's...
[/ QUOTE ]
Think Magneto. I am by no means an X-men philospher, but I do know that he was old enough to survive the Holocaust but he ran a band of mutants, including the Brotherhood of Mutants and Acolytes.
Frostfire got Punk'd, and I say file a lawsuit against the jock that did it to him.
[/ QUOTE ]
When you are Magneto, no one cards you.
[/ QUOTE ]
what about Xorn and Captian America?
[/ QUOTE ]
Conspiracy 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
as a sidenote, anyone else think its kind of weird that a 43 year old man is leading(what i had assumed to be) a teenage gang? I mean, common cannon for mutants is their mutation manifests in their teens. But if Frostie was 17 back in '79, he would be in his 40's today. Maybe they should retcon it to '89 or the mid 90's...
[/ QUOTE ]
Think Magneto. I am by no means an X-men philospher, but I do know that he was old enough to survive the Holocaust but he ran a band of mutants, including the Brotherhood of Mutants and Acolytes.
Frostfire got Punk'd, and I say file a lawsuit against the jock that did it to him.
[/ QUOTE ]
When you are Magneto, no one cards you.
[/ QUOTE ]
what about Xorn and Captian America?
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think Captain America has ever carded Magneto.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
What I think is suspicious is that he supposedly froze the clerk and the robber when
1) We know for a *fact* that it is impossible to use superpowers on a civilian, much less stop them from walking down the sidewalk.
2) Frostfire's ability to freeze someone is based entirely on single-target attacks. He could not have frozen the clerk on accident, even if the clerk were targetable.
What clearly happened was that the clerk was an out-of-work ice tank who hibernated to protect himself. Because of this, it is impossible for him to have been killed by the fire. All we need to do is *find* this clerk to verify these facts, but he is no doubt in hiding.
[ QUOTE ]
Think Magneto. I am by no means an X-men philospher, but I do know that he was old enough to survive the Holocaust but he ran a band of mutants, including the Brotherhood of Mutants and Acolytes.
Frostfire got Punk'd, and I say file a lawsuit against the jock that did it to him.
[/ QUOTE ]
yes, but magneto didnt run a street gang. The whole MO of the outcasts is that its mutants(presumeably teens) that formed a gang. You would think someone in their 40's would be a little more organized. I mean, a petty gang by 43? jeez what a loser. He doesnt even menace a whole city. Magneto menaced the whole earth.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
[ QUOTE ]
What I think is suspicious is that he supposedly froze the clerk and the robber when
1) We know for a *fact* that it is impossible to use superpowers on a civilian, much less stop them from walking down the sidewalk.
2) Frostfire's ability to freeze someone is based entirely on single-target attacks. He could not have frozen the clerk on accident, even if the clerk were targetable.
What clearly happened was that the clerk was an out-of-work ice tank who hibernated to protect himself. Because of this, it is impossible for him to have been killed by the fire. All we need to do is *find* this clerk to verify these facts, but he is no doubt in hiding.
[/ QUOTE ]
The clerk was a Malta plant ... or Antonio Nash in disguise!
Actually, do we even know what Nash's powers are?
My COX Fanfiction:
Blue's Assembled Story Links
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What I think is suspicious is that he supposedly froze the clerk and the robber when
1) We know for a *fact* that it is impossible to use superpowers on a civilian, much less stop them from walking down the sidewalk.
2) Frostfire's ability to freeze someone is based entirely on single-target attacks. He could not have frozen the clerk on accident, even if the clerk were targetable.
What clearly happened was that the clerk was an out-of-work ice tank who hibernated to protect himself. Because of this, it is impossible for him to have been killed by the fire. All we need to do is *find* this clerk to verify these facts, but he is no doubt in hiding.
[/ QUOTE ]
The clerk was a Malta plant ... or Antonio Nash in disguise!
Actually, do we even know what Nash's powers are?
[/ QUOTE ]
Mega Charisma and Cloning
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's called the CSI Effect, and it's VERY real.
I've heard from prosecutors who have gotten cases where they literally apprehended the guy with the weapon AND the loot -- but the jurors acquitted because the prosecution didn't offer DNA evidence.
[/ QUOTE ]
lol. Good for them. The State gets a lot of advantages in criminal trials, now the wicked have a new Champion: CSI!!! 
[/ QUOTE ]
So you are acutally happy that a person caught with the loot and the gun (making him an armed robber) was set free to be an armed robber again?
[/ QUOTE ]
You don't know that the defendant would do it again. The experience of being tried and getting a pass might have scared him straight. I do know the prison would have likely made the guy a better crook.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well If you know anything about human behavior, and especially criminal behavior, the odds are if the guy did it and got a "pass" he feels invincible and his behavior escalated from there. On the flip side, that means the prosecution almost certainly got another opportunity to prosecute him and send him away (something young prosecutor's don't learn till later is the fact that you generally get another chance and if the guy doesn't show back up he learned his lesson).
As for learning to be a better crook in prison, it should be pointed out that prison is full on the FAILURES at crime. The success stories run corporations
On Justice
[ QUOTE ]
it may have been too much when considering the lack of intent, but really, the deal they offered was probably in place more because they wanted to give him an acceptable way to avoid the longer sentence.
Too many people assume that law is about morality. It is not, law is about order. This is not to say that the law does not care about morality, but on the hierarchy of needs morality is above order. Order is the foundation on which morality builds, without it, you would have good people like always but in such an anarchic environment most people would be too concerned with their own survival to really be able to afford morality, even if they understand it.
In this case, Frostfire's actions were such that there needed to be a punishment or else others would be see that he got away with it and be a bit more lax in their manner of action. There would be more such accidents. It is the same reason their are laws against vigilantism and such in the real world. There has to be penalties for rash behaviors that end in unintended results, or else fewer people would think before they act.
Frostfire was an example prosecution. Such things are necessary. It is not a matter of "you only want to make an example of", it is a matter of "you must make an example of." The consequences otherwise are a larger number of similar events and more deaths.
You can't eliminate recklessness, and you can even gloss over some minor examples. But once you have massive property loss (if it was an apartment building, that means he may have ruined someone's business as well as rendered many others homeless) and deaths, then the government must respond even if the agents of the government don't feel it was anything more than a terrible accident.
Frostfire should have taken the 5 years, they were being kind.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, I agree law and morality are not the same, although the law is often used to enforce morality. You're forgetting the role of the jury.
Although I admit that prosecutions occur to make an example of people, further that juries are swayed by emotion, rather than being "disspassionate" as instructed. Still, the judge would have to instruct the jury regarding a specific crime, which the jury would have to find that he had done and if the facts didn't support it the defense attorney should have asked the judge for a directed verdict finding him not guilty and the judge (who in a perfect world should not be swayed by public opinion) would have to grant it.
The governement report reads like a "comic book" report. First the version of events follows Frostfire's (and not as "claimed" by frostfire, but as if they really happened that way) Who other the FF would know his powers went out of wack? What the State would really have is a burned building and several deaths unless there were actually witnesses that survived the robbery/arson and through all the chaos saw things exactly the same (Doubtful) and would not interpret events as hold up, followed by attempt to kill all witnesses by evil mutant (more likely eyewitness interpretation).
As for the laws that would apply and the issue on intent. If the scenario as described is the facts the prosecution used, then the charges he should and would have faced are manslaughter or, as it is in some states now, negligent homicide.
Honestly, I feel bad for Frostfire (Think of what happens during a "mission failure" on a rescue x mission FF fate could be anyones), but I like my villians that way. Being bad for badness sake is boring. Magneto is an awesome villian. Why? Because he is someone we can understand the motivations for. I want to feel sympathy for my villians.
This does make me wonder why the police drones don't send you straight to jail during the countess crey arch in the 40s when you become an outlaw. I would love to have some vigilante in that arch show you the "other ways" into the zones. With the addition of PPD and long bow, it would be nice if the ambushes in that arch were composed of them instead, give a "hero" are real choice on fight or flight.
On Justice
[ QUOTE ]
Not to introduce religious overtones, but in situations like this, I like to ask myself, "What would Superman do?" Would Superman just beat him and fly away. No, Superman would do EVERYTHING in his power to redeem him. He tried with the Toyman (with mixed results). He tried with Major Disaster (also with mixed results but slightly better). I loved the issue of Superman in which he offers redemption to 3 or 4 different villains, and only Major Disaster took him up on it. Regarding Frosfire, Batman would just beat him, Superman would try to redeem him. To be fair to Batman though, after Superman inspired him to change Frostfire would probably get help from and/or get involved w/ a Wayne foundation funded charity. Heck Bruce would probably give the guy a job once he was on the straight and narrow.
Perhaps the Devs should set up a mission in which slightly higher-level characters could attempt to somehow redeem Frostfire! It should somehow involve saving his loved ones, then somehow get him out of trouble with higher up criminals? Heroes don't just beat up the bad guys. Pro wrestlers do that. Heroes do good.
--- Ollie
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that attempting to redeem is the heroic thing to do, disagree with your assessment of Batman though (well, ok movie batman is all about killing the bad guy) but the comics are full of his attempts to redeem villians Catwoman (ok she's a love interest so unpure motive there) but Two-face (even in the dark knight returns he wants to believe harvey is redeemed) even the Joker (Which went from a homicidal looney to a somewhat sympathetic villian in the "Killing Joke"). He even saved the joker from the death penalty because the Joker didn't commit the homicide he was going to get fried for
On Justice
[ QUOTE ]
What I think is suspicious is that he supposedly froze the clerk and the robber when
1) We know for a *fact* that it is impossible to use superpowers on a civilian, much less stop them from walking down the sidewalk.
2) Frostfire's ability to freeze someone is based entirely on single-target attacks. He could not have frozen the clerk on accident, even if the clerk were targetable.
What clearly happened was that the clerk was an out-of-work ice tank who hibernated to protect himself. Because of this, it is impossible for him to have been killed by the fire. All we need to do is *find* this clerk to verify these facts, but he is no doubt in hiding.
[/ QUOTE ]
Avoid using game rules when discussing storyline.
The game exists in a static world of set statistics and defined abilities.
The story is a bit more fluid, in a world where statistics are not so dependable or constant. And effects are not well defined.
Characters in stories will always have options and capabilities that game characters will not have. Story-characters will also be vulnerable to mistakes that game characters could never make.
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What I think is suspicious is that he supposedly froze the clerk and the robber when
1) We know for a *fact* that it is impossible to use superpowers on a civilian, much less stop them from walking down the sidewalk.
2) Frostfire's ability to freeze someone is based entirely on single-target attacks. He could not have frozen the clerk on accident, even if the clerk were targetable.
What clearly happened was that the clerk was an out-of-work ice tank who hibernated to protect himself. Because of this, it is impossible for him to have been killed by the fire. All we need to do is *find* this clerk to verify these facts, but he is no doubt in hiding.
[/ QUOTE ]
Avoid using game rules when discussing storyline.
The game exists in a static world of set statistics and defined abilities.
The story is a bit more fluid, in a world where statistics are not so dependable or constant. And effects are not well defined.
Characters in stories will always have options and capabilities that game characters will not have. Story-characters will also be vulnerable to mistakes that game characters could never make.
[/ QUOTE ]
And that would be why Scourge's post was meant as a joke!
Silly greyfaces....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What I think is suspicious is that he supposedly froze the clerk and the robber when
1) We know for a *fact* that it is impossible to use superpowers on a civilian, much less stop them from walking down the sidewalk.
2) Frostfire's ability to freeze someone is based entirely on single-target attacks. He could not have frozen the clerk on accident, even if the clerk were targetable.
What clearly happened was that the clerk was an out-of-work ice tank who hibernated to protect himself. Because of this, it is impossible for him to have been killed by the fire. All we need to do is *find* this clerk to verify these facts, but he is no doubt in hiding.
[/ QUOTE ]
Avoid using game rules when discussing storyline.
The game exists in a static world of set statistics and defined abilities.
The story is a bit more fluid, in a world where statistics are not so dependable or constant. And effects are not well defined.
Characters in stories will always have options and capabilities that game characters will not have. Story-characters will also be vulnerable to mistakes that game characters could never make.
[/ QUOTE ]
And that would be why Scourge's post was meant as a joke!
Silly greyfaces....
[/ QUOTE ]
i blame comunists
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
i blame comunists
[/ QUOTE ]
Didn't you hear? There aren't any more communists. They're all gone.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i blame comunists
[/ QUOTE ]
Didn't you hear? There aren't any more communists. They're all gone.
[/ QUOTE ]
That what the republicans want you to think :P
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Many villains are the result of unfortunate circumstances. His origins are tragic, yes, but he is now a criminal who routinely does very bad things. Despite the things that have happened TO him, he still needs to be brought to justice.
[/ QUOTE ]
What does he do? He hangs out in an abandoned building and gets his butt kicked 20-30 times a day. I feel sorry for the poor guy!
[/ QUOTE ]
NOTE: Since his escape from the Zigursky Penitentiary, Frostfire is suspected to be directly involved in 10 Counts of Felony Assault, 2 Counts of Bookmaking, 4 Counts of Robbery, 3 Counts of Extortion, 3 Counts of Racketeering Violence, 8 Counts of Arson, 2 Counts of Murder
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM