Did Frostfire get a raw deal?
By
Acyl,
Posted on: 2006-06-28 15:10 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Part of the reason that powers are supposed to be registered etc. is to make sure they don't run out of control.
I am guessing paragon city is EXTREMELY sensitive to things like this after the Siren's Call incident! He is lucky he didn't get tossed in the Zig for life.
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Indeed. People like Frostfire are the reason fledgling heroes are required to initially limit themselves to two powers until the higher-ups approve broader and potentially more dangerous applications of those powers.
Here's another way of looking at it. Suppose Frostfire just randomly has an unlicensed handgun when he saw the robbery taking place. He goes in there and starts firing blindly all over the place because he has no idea how to properly use a firearm. In the process, he accidentally shoots and kills the shopkeeper. Should he get off easy then, despite his good intentions?
There is probably quite a bit of legal precedent for untrained people using their super powers in a reckless fashion. FF cannot possibly be the first pyrokineticist to accidentally burn down a building because he didn't know what he was doing with his fire. I would imagine it's common knowledge by people in Paragon that super powers aren't to be used without proper training, just as we in the real world know that you're not supposed to own and use a gun without a license and proper training.
If there wasn't a Peter Parker to say it in the CoXverse, then no doubt at least one court ruling has come out and said "With great power comes great responsibility". If you have super strength but no idea how to control it, you don't go around shaking people's hands. You don't go rushing with your powers if you can't wield them responsibly. You'll just do more harm than good, and Frostfire is likely just one more in a long series of examples of why this is so.
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He obviously got a raw deal because he was active before the whole Civilians are Invulnerble upgrade they got. And the Only a Couple Buildings in the whole City can blow up upgrade.
If it weren't for that, my Defender would be responsible for rad poisoning of civilians/hostages on a daily basis, my fire tanker...my gosh, I'd have blown up sewers, office buildings, warehouses and levelled half the city by now just in my 'heroic' duties.
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Here's another way of looking at it. Suppose Frostfire just randomly has an unlicensed handgun when he saw the robbery taking place.
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"Unliscensed handgun" No such thing in the United States 
Read the Second Amendment, that's your liscense.
Secondly, in most juristictions, the laws on use of deadly force are the exact same laws that cover Police Officers and other law enforcement.
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"Unliscensed handgun" No such thing in the United States Read the Second Amendment, that's your liscense.
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groan
please, please address the example at hand.
I did, read the whole reply.
According to the evidence from his backstory, it seems clear that he was railroaded. Of course, that could be just the defense's version of what happened...
Paragon City also has some different laws than we're used to. After all, registered superhumans are allowed (even encouraged) to pummel, burn, electrocute, irradiate, freeze shoot with automatic weapons, and drain the souls of people with suspected criminal affiliation for such crimes as purse-snatching, minor vandalism, or simply loitering in a public area.
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Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day;
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Heck, I feel sorry for the guy. A heartless justice system, overzealous and/or incompetent lawyers
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Most likely evil, evil lawyers. Remember all the signs promoting that lawyer on superhuman damage/injury claims? "Sue! Never Work Again!"
Devs, we need a Lawyer AT for the villains.
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This is a good example of how a bad guys is not really bad, per say.
Not all people in COV are "villains". There not all cut throat killers and kidnappers. Some are the "robin hoods" of the world.
Maybe some had good intentions and over time they got darker and darker. Perfect example is Batman and Spiderman when they start to question if what they are doing is any good or does it really matter. This is not them crossing over to the dark side, but it does show a crossroad that some have crossed.
Does a vampire, a creature that had to feed on the living, have to be evil? Is there no such thing as redemption? Cant a Hero fall from the light.
I find it interesting the background behind some of these "avs"
Arctic's post mentioning Malta (for the next villain group update, I'm assuming), reminded me of a Malta mission in which you have to save a young hero from the Malta, without her knowing. The Malta intend to have her "mission" go disastrously wrong, and get blamed for it, thus removing another hero from active duty.
It's the high-level mission with some seriously-grey-conning Skulls in it. >_>
Perhaps Frostfire was the victim of the Malta, helping to cause the fire, and everything else that went wrong. Not to mention that "our friends" have connections.....
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I think I've got it:
Frostfire actually has reformed and is working with Flux and the PPD, providing an early test of the young heroes ability against an Elite Boss class foe.
Which explains why he never actually goes to jail. :-)
Ok. Why are we saying he got a "harsh" sentence?
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Calhoun surrendered himself to the authorities. Although the District Attorneys Office offered a deal for 5 years of jail time acknowledging his pure motives, Calhoun refused, believing wrongly that the jury would find him innocent. He was stunned by his conviction. Still, the judge was extremely lenient in his instructions, and a relatively light sentence was handed down as Calhouns heart was judged to be in the right place.
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They're not specific with what they slapped him with, but I'm guessing it was under 10 years. If he behaved well and learned to use his powers under their supervision and repeatedly expressed a desire to join the forces of good in defending the city, I'm guessing he could have been out in less than 5 years, easy.
That's not "harsh." Well, at least according to the story. According to the story, he got a "very lenient" sentence.
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I think I've got it:
Frostfire actually has reformed and is working with Flux and the PPD, providing an early test of the young heroes ability against an Elite Boss class foe.
Which explains why he never actually goes to jail. :-)
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If only.
I still maintain that Antonio Nash is the real jerkass here. He's supposed to be "the man that got out of gangs and helps young people get out of them" but could seriously give less of a [censored] about Frostfire (who could be a real asset to heroes if he didn't feel betrayed.)
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Laws like this vary on a state-to-state basis. It may well be true in one state, but not another. In addition, we're talking about a fictional universe here, so it may well be different than what we know.
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Yes, of course, but Arson almost everyone requires either intent or knowledge. Those two mental states are not present on the facts.
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Nearly every state allows for the prosecution of a minor as an adult. Usually only the most serious cases are handled this way, and this may well be considered one of them, since several people died as a direct result of his actions, even if not intentionally.
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Right, but I am aware of no state that allows a minor to be prosecuted as an adult for a crime when the elements of the offense are not present.
The mental state required to be guilty of a crime is just as important, if not more so, than the act. If you tell me that Frostfire killed someone, that by itself tells us nothing about whether criminal liability also exists.
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Ok. Why are we saying he got a "harsh" sentence?
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Calhoun surrendered himself to the authorities. Although the District Attorneys Office offered a deal for 5 years of jail time acknowledging his pure motives, Calhoun refused, believing wrongly that the jury would find him innocent. He was stunned by his conviction. Still, the judge was extremely lenient in his instructions, and a relatively light sentence was handed down as Calhouns heart was judged to be in the right place.
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They're not specific with what they slapped him with, but I'm guessing it was under 10 years. If he behaved well and learned to use his powers under their supervision and repeatedly expressed a desire to join the forces of good in defending the city, I'm guessing he could have been out in less than 5 years, easy.
That's not "harsh." Well, at least according to the story. According to the story, he got a "very lenient" sentence.
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I think that 5 years of jail time for an accident is pretty harsh myself.
Maybe it's just the way I'm looking at this situation, but I think that at most he should have gotten supervised probation until he turned 21. Possibly the probation could have been supervised by the Regulators or the Freedom Phalanx.
Here's an analogy that popped into my head:
Let's say that you're hiking and you stumble across someone who's dangling over a cliff. You try to help pull the guy up, but you lose your grip and he falls to his death. Should you do jail time for that?
It was tragic that innocent people died, and certainly Frostfire shouldn't have gotten off scott free, but I think that imprisonment didn't fit the crime.
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Ok. Why are we saying he got a "harsh" sentence?
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Calhoun surrendered himself to the authorities. Although the District Attorneys Office offered a deal for 5 years of jail time acknowledging his pure motives, Calhoun refused, believing wrongly that the jury would find him innocent. He was stunned by his conviction. Still, the judge was extremely lenient in his instructions, and a relatively light sentence was handed down as Calhouns heart was judged to be in the right place.
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They're not specific with what they slapped him with, but I'm guessing it was under 10 years. If he behaved well and learned to use his powers under their supervision and repeatedly expressed a desire to join the forces of good in defending the city, I'm guessing he could have been out in less than 5 years, easy.
That's not "harsh." Well, at least according to the story. According to the story, he got a "very lenient" sentence.
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lol. I assume you've never seen what a county jail or prison is like. Spending one day incarcerated when you haven't committed a crime is harsh.
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I think that 5 years of jail time for an accident is pretty harsh myself.
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I bet the shopkeeper's family feels differently.
Five years is not at all an uncommon penalty for an accidental death. People go to jail for far longer in manslaughter cases in the real world.
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I think I've got it:
Frostfire actually has reformed and is working with Flux and the PPD, providing an early test of the young heroes ability against an Elite Boss class foe.
Which explains why he never actually goes to jail. :-)
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If only.
I still maintain that Antonio Nash is the real jerkass here. He's supposed to be "the man that got out of gangs and helps young people get out of them" but could seriously give less of a [censored] about Frostfire (who could be a real asset to heroes if he didn't feel betrayed.)
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How old is Antonio Nash supposed to be? Frostfire could have been before his time.
Actually, I'm kind of getting a sort of Xavier/Magneto vibe from Nash/Frostfire now ... if they ever do new arcs for COH, that could be something they could play up ...
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Nice find, yeah he seems to got RR'd.
In this case FF's intent was outweighed by his reckless behavior. Being reckless in any activity that results in a death can result in jail time.
For example:
A camper makes a fire that gets out of control and destroys a forest, many homes, and results in deaths. It is later determined that the camper was negligent in managing the fire. Most likely the camper would be prosecuted.
In a hostage situation (like a botched bank robbery), the police officer in charge of the scene decides to try wait out the hostage takers and negotiate before sending in the SWAT team. Another officer decides on his own to assult the hostage takers on his own, which results in the deaths of several hostages. This office would most likley be prosecuted.
In both of these cases, neither party had any ill intent, but their actions were reckless.
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PS Malta....with a special report from Crimson...soon.
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Followed by a ten man Malta Ambush comprised entirely of level 53 Gunslingers . . . when you get off the train in Atlas Park.
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2) This case should have been brought as a reckless homicide. However even there, there was insufficient evidence that the defendant knew that his actions were likely to cause the harm inflicted. This is necessary when the government alleges reckless conduct. The defendant was a teenager and there is no evidence that he knew the extent of his powers.
Even a teeenager should know better than to play with fire.
In a world where a signficant number of kids spontaneously manifest superpowers upon puberty, I'd expect that kids have been bombarded with the message that superpowers are very dangerous and shouldn't be used without training. I'd also expect that by now the courts (and juries) in Paragon City have had enough of juvenille supers blasting things indiscriminantly and have taken to making examples out of them.
Finally, he was already up against it for freezing the shopkeeper and robber, which probably killed them before the fire in any case.
I am guessing paragon city is EXTREMELY sensitive to things like this after the Siren's Call incident! He is lucky he didn't get tossed in the Zig for life.
Frostfire's arrest was in 1979; the Sirens' Call incident was last year.
And I'm not so sure Spider-man couldn't be considered a murderer by some courts, as it was his web that snagged Gwen Stacy in such a way as to snap her neck. If not murder, negligent homicide.
Um, no, due to the small detail that she was plummeting to her death at the time. Her death was the result of the Green Goblin's actions.
Frostfire's situation is less clear. He was witnessing an armed robbery, and it is legal to use deadly force to prevent imminent and inescapable loss of life or limb (AFAIK), but it is not clear that the robbery qualifies. The likelihood was that if he did nothing and the shopkeeper surrendered his property, the robber would have simply fled the scene. Arguing that he was trying to save the shopkeeper when he burned down the building is somewhat specious when he froze the shopkeeper in the first place.
Missions may be supported by Paragon's governing bodies, but surely, laying waste to a bunch of Outcasts who are doing nothing more than standing on a street in peaceful assembly is against our real life laws.
There's no right to hang out on street corners, certainly not wearing gang colors. Feel free to have your character walk up to street spawns and tell them to break it up or get charged with loitering, so they can fire first. :-)
Perhaps Frostfire was the victim of the Malta, helping to cause the fire, and everything else that went wrong. Not to mention that "our friends" have connections.....
Doesn't seem likely since he wasn't operating as a cosutmed vigilante yet.
They're not specific with what they slapped him with, but I'm guessing it was under 10 years.
The entry says 20 years, 10 suspended, parole in 3.
Let's say that you're hiking and you stumble across someone who's dangling over a cliff. You try to help pull the guy up, but you lose your grip and he falls to his death. Should you do jail time for that?
Depends, did you push him first?
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The mental state required to be guilty of a crime is just as important, if not more so, than the act.
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If I was asked to prosecute this case, and I believed in it, I would proceed as follows:
1. Frostfire clearly had ample opportunity to discover that his powers had the potential to cause serious damage and injury, as evidenced by the extent of the powers, and the admission that at the time of the robbery, he had them for quite some time.
2. He did not have any special training in the use of said powers, nor is there evidence that he has consistently demonstrated exacting control of them.
3. Knowing that his powers had the significant potential to do harm, he nevertheless used them against the robber, and consequently incapacitated the clerk as well.
4. In spite of his good intentions, he exercised a power designed to cause harm, and it affected a bystander. His freezing of the clerk already meets the standard for reckless endangerment.
5. Now, in a confined space and within the presence of two incapacitated people, he elected to use fire-based powers. Regardless of Frostfire's belief that he could do so successfully, it is a matter for the jury to decide if its reasonable to believe that using flame-based super powers in a confined space and in the presence of two incapacitated people is safe.
6. If the jury decides that its not a reasonable belief, then Frostfire's actions can be considered reckless.
7. Reckless actions causing the deaths of three people is negligent homicide.
8. If the act of using flame powers is considered reckless for the purposes of deciding if a homicide is commited, then it can equally be considered to be reckless for the purposes of whether his actions are consistent with the crime of arson.
Ergo: Frostfire is guilty of second degree arson and three counts of negligent homicide.
This progression does not have any significant prerequisites on the mental state of Frostfire, since it does not require demonstrating any intent beyond the intent to actually perform the actions he did perform. It does not require any knowledge of his intent to cause a specific final result.
Of course, I'm not a lawyer (I know a few), so this is just my read of the law.
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lol. I assume you've never seen what a county jail or prison is like. Spending one day incarcerated when you haven't committed a crime is harsh.
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County ain't so bad. Now try spending a stretch in max security....23 and 3/4 hours a day in an 8x8 cell with no clothing other than your underwear. Only furniture is the vinyl-covered foam block bed, and a combination toilet/sink/water fountain. The only other items you are allowed are a pillow with a cardboard case, a cordura blanket, and a roll of TP. Bastards won't even allow you a Bible. Oh yeah, you have no way to measure pasing of time other than lights on and lights off. The only time you're allowed out of the cell is in cuffs with a belly chain. They put you in a special shower cell and unlock the cuffs. You shower, then you are recuffed before you can make the walk back to your cell. Try spending time in that situation and tell me County is harsh.
Worst part is that it's all trumped-up charges. Time like that can can seriously F with your head.
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1. Frostfire clearly had ample opportunity to discover that his powers had the potential to cause serious damage and injury, as evidenced by the extent of the powers, and the admission that at the time of the robbery, he had them for quite some time.
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That's not in the record before us. What is in the record is that Frostfire knew he could control temperature. There is no evidence that he was aware of the outside limits of his power.
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3. Knowing that his powers had the significant potential to do harm, he nevertheless used them against the robber, and consequently incapacitated the clerk as well.
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Yes in defense of others. Not necessarily reckless.
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4. In spite of his good intentions, he exercised a power designed to cause harm, and it affected a bystander. His freezing of the clerk already meets the standard for reckless endangerment.
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Again you're using the laymen's definition of reckless. Criminal recklessness requires conscious indifference of the potential harm that your actions could cause. The description of the event clearly suggest that FF powers went wild.
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5. Now, in a confined space and within the presence of two incapacitated people, he elected to use fire-based powers. Regardless of Frostfire's belief that he could do so successfully, it is a matter for the jury to decide if its reasonable to believe that using flame-based super powers in a confined space and in the presence of two incapacitated people is safe.
6. If the jury decides that its not a reasonable belief, then Frostfire's actions can be considered reckless.
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That's not the standard and I would never agree to such an instruction.
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7. Reckless actions causing the deaths of three people is negligent homicide.
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There are different names for it in different states, but that's correct.
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Ergo: Frostfire is guilty of second degree arson and three counts of negligent homicide.
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Under the laws of RI, the building must be unoccupied for it to constitute second degree arson. And I don't think they have negligent homicide in RI.
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When they offered him 5 years and he wanted no punishment at all for deaths, could that have been construed as recklessness or even a total disreguard for life?
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Hell no.