Did Frostfire get a raw deal?
By
Acyl,
Posted on: 2006-06-28 15:10 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[ QUOTE ]
Arguing about the logic behind continuity in American comics is like complaining about the pattern of dominos that are set up on the San Andreas Fault 
[/ QUOTE ]
Those patterns ARE terrible
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
It does add a different Role Play element to the game. If you feel that Frostfire got railroaded you and the team can be on your way to redeem him. Maybe try to talk him out of his Outcast gang ways.
Which if you think about it is kind of cool in the game. That you can somewhat feel for the villains in the game. The Circle of Thorns got a raw deal also and are now paying for it. Not too sure about this but wasn't Dreck also a bit of a victim and set up by Crey? So if you wished you could see your hero trying to reform these guys rather than sending them back to the Zig.
[ QUOTE ]
Then what the prosecutor had to prove was that FF:
Caused the fire with knowledge that he was subjecting the inhabitants to SUBSTANTIAL risk of SERIOUS physical harm.
The facts don't show that. The facts show that the kid was trying to thaw out the shopkeep and his powers went wild. There is NO evidence that he knew that would happen.
[/ QUOTE ]
The fact that he knew he had fire/cold powers and that he was attempting to use them in the way he did shows that he did have some manner of control over them and the prosecutor MAY have used those factors in helping to convince a jury that he was at fault. Not to mention the possibilty of a lot of moral outrage at this young punk who just burnt a big building down. Essentially instead of being reckless, its negligent homicide, like a doctor forgetting something that causes a patients death. intentionally or not, then it becomes manslaughter (IIRC).
yea, it sounds like he did get a raw deal though. doesnt make me feel sorry for him. Dude went on the run during the 80s and did next to squat during the rikti war and kept on being a soured ganglord.
somehow, the fact he gets whupped on more than OJSimpson in a Naked Gun movie doesnt fill me with a lot of sympathy.
[ QUOTE ]
Essentially instead of being reckless, its negligent homicide, like a doctor forgetting something that causes a patients death. intentionally or not, then it becomes manslaughter (IIRC).
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, if it was arson, it's felony murder.
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Lord Vetinari, Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett.
[ QUOTE ]
It does add a different Role Play element to the game. If you feel that Frostfire got railroaded you and the team can be on your way to redeem him. Maybe try to talk him out of his Outcast gang ways.
Which if you think about it is kind of cool in the game. That you can somewhat feel for the villains in the game. The Circle of Thorns got a raw deal also and are now paying for it. Not too sure about this but wasn't Dreck also a bit of a victim and set up by Crey? So if you wished you could see your hero trying to reform these guys rather than sending them back to the Zig.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually that is what my main toon is out to try and do, reform these guys. That's why one of my alts is actually him in the Rogue Isles, trying to reach out to the misguided and angry of the isles. He's even had some success, and turned some on the path to villany to good.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then what the prosecutor had to prove was that FF:
Caused the fire with knowledge that he was subjecting the inhabitants to SUBSTANTIAL risk of SERIOUS physical harm.
The facts don't show that. The facts show that the kid was trying to thaw out the shopkeep and his powers went wild. There is NO evidence that he knew that would happen.
[/ QUOTE ]
The fact that he knew he had fire/cold powers and that he was attempting to use them in the way he did shows that he did have some manner of control over them and the prosecutor MAY have used those factors in helping to convince a jury that he was at fault. Not to mention the possibilty of a lot of moral outrage at this young punk who just burnt a big building down. Essentially instead of being reckless, its negligent homicide, like a doctor forgetting something that causes a patients death. intentionally or not, then it becomes manslaughter (IIRC).
yea, it sounds like he did get a raw deal though. doesnt make me feel sorry for him. Dude went on the run during the 80s and did next to squat during the rikti war and kept on being a soured ganglord.
somehow, the fact he gets whupped on more than OJSimpson in a Naked Gun movie doesnt fill me with a lot of sympathy.
[/ QUOTE ]
In my viewpoint, FF had his chance. If he'd have accepted his fate, it is quite possible that the Prosecutor would have petitioned for leniency. (note the 5 year sentance, something far more lenient than most negligent homicides get offered) Likely for a reduction of years and a lighter pennitentary. (not the Zig, but in an outreach program). 5 years would have actually been, in effect, YDC with him being released at 22. During that time, he would likely have been councelled, and even trained so that he would be one of the best heroes the city could have.
Given the amount of area effect powers that our characters have, it's a wonder that more of us aren't in Frostfire's shoes in terms of accidentally destroying property and killing civillians.
(Yes, I know it's game mechanics, but plotwise if it could happen to Frosty it could happen to us ... it just won't.)
And that's what makes me think that he was given a raw deal: it was an accident. He wasn't out "on patrol". He witnessed a crime and tried to stop it. It wasn't the act of stopping the crime that got him into trouble-- it was the attempt free the convenience store clerk from the block of ice.
He was in a situation that's essentially the same as what our heroes go through every day: he saw a crime and he tried to help.
Who knows? If things hadn't gone awry, Frosty could have been standing in Steel Canyon instead of Posi right now ... 
My COX Fanfiction:
Blue's Assembled Story Links
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He was acting as an actual vigilante.
Heroes in Paragon are supposed to register their powers and operate with governmental oversight. He didn't do so and reaped the consequences.
[/ QUOTE ]
So you're saying your hero would have just let the robbery take place if he hadn't gotten his license yet?
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the part about "His fire powers ignited the building, and the ensuing inferno destroyed the building. Although Calhoun escaped unharmed, several people were killed in the blaze, including the clerk and the robber." may have influenced his sentancing. I'd imagine he'd have either been sentanced to a youth outreach center if there'd been minimal damage and no loss of life or parole or something for just property damage.
He killed several people. That had to be why he got a harsh sentance.
[/ QUOTE ]
How the hell did he set a building on fire with his powers? I've been trying to do that since DAY ONE and it hasn't worked yet!
I don't feel bad for him. Fate made up for it by giving him both IMPS and a JACK FROST.
Well, the only reason he got shafted was because he didn't have the hutspa (sp?) to fight back against the police. Trust me, if my main was to give up to the police, he would be in jail 24/7/365.
Many villains are the result of unfortunate circumstances. His origins are tragic, yes, but he is now a criminal who routinely does very bad things. Despite the things that have happened TO him, he still needs to be brought to justice.
[ QUOTE ]
Many villains are the result of unfortunate circumstances. His origins are tragic, yes, but he is now a criminal who routinely does very bad things. Despite the things that have happened TO him, he still needs to be brought to justice.
[/ QUOTE ]
What does he do? He hangs out in an abandoned building and gets his butt kicked 20-30 times a day. I feel sorry for the poor guy! 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
1) Arson requires the specific intent to cause harm. If the prosecutor and judge knew that he had no intent to cause harm he had no business being prosecuted for Arson. Both the prosecutor and judge were in derogation of their oath.
[/ QUOTE ]
Laws like this vary on a state-to-state basis. It may well be true in one state, but not another. In addition, we're talking about a fictional universe here, so it may well be different than what we know.
[ QUOTE ]
3) As a juvenile who should not have been charged with an intentional crime, he should have been charged as a juvenile. Even assuming conviction, he should have been remanded to juvenile custody until 21.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nearly every state allows for the prosecution of a minor as an adult. Usually only the most serious cases are handled this way, and this may well be considered one of them, since several people died as a direct result of his actions, even if not intentionally.
That said, I think he got railroaded, too.
Can I just say you guys all just made my day?
cheers,
Arctic Sun
PS Malta....with a special report from Crimson...soon.
[ QUOTE ]
Can I just say you guys all just made my day?
cheers,
Arctic Sun
PS Malta....with a special report from Crimson...soon.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do we have to take it to Indigo to get it decrypted before we can read it?
[ QUOTE ]
Can I just say you guys all just made my day?
[/ QUOTE ]
It is the nature of the community to analyse everything - it was only a matter of time before we latched onto that wonderfully written website content. =)
Honestly? It's a thought-provoking issue. Thematically speaking, the line between hero and villain...that's an old comic book question. Frostfire's an interesting take on the subject. It's pretty cool - pun unintended - that there's background material to give him depth. It makes a single Elite Boss mission far more interesting. And it's a lot of food for thought. If we take Frostfire as being representative of his gang, the Outcasts...
Hell, I've always wondered why they're called Outcasts. After reading that, it started to make sense. Frostfire views himself as Outcast. And maybe he really was treated badly. That's pretty cool. That's good storytelling. Makes you think.
Maybe Frostfire got a raw deal. But he's still the leader of an incredibly dangerous gang. Does his victim status legitimise everything he's done since? It does in his own mind, certainly - lex talionis, the law of retribution. I'm a victim, I have been wronged. You messed me up, therefore I'm justified in whatever I do to you. Being a victim makes me innocent.
Is that right?
Last couple of times I fought the guy...my ice tank, Flu Shot, kept referring to Frostfire as 'Calhoun', 'Lenny-boy', and 'hero-wannabe'. Flu Shot's always an mean little snot in RP, but that particular hook amused me, and it was well-received by a few folks. More seriously, though, Flu Shot really does have a hideously low opinion of Frostfire. Shot knows the story, but he doesn't feel sorry for him. In Shot's eyes, maybe Frostfire was a victim, but he's one who's become a worse transgressor.
That said, I'm fiddling with a story which has...perhaps a more sympathetic take. Yeah, I'm getting a lot from this. Fun stuff.
------
@Acyl
VIRTUE:
Syndesis -- 50 DM/Regen Scrapper
Superball -- 30 MA/Inv Scrapper
Obsolete -- 28 Rad/Rad Corruptor
@Acyl
VIRTUE
Blue: Realpolitik, Leading Lady, Glass Lass, Superball, Alec Kazam
Red: Battery Acid, Obsolete, Bugfix
[ QUOTE ]
Can I just say you guys all just made my day?
cheers,
Arctic Sun
PS Malta....with a special report from Crimson...soon.
[/ QUOTE ]
What?
You know some folks just love to go over every little story related thing with a fine tooth comb, right?
*huggles Arctic_Sun*
Part of the reason that powers are supposed to be registered etc. is to make sure they don't run out of control.
I am guessing paragon city is EXTREMELY sensitive to things like this after the Siren's Call incident! He is lucky he didn't get tossed in the Zig for life.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can I just say you guys all just made my day?
cheers,
Arctic Sun
PS Malta....with a special report from Crimson...soon.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do we have to take it to Indigo to get it decrypted before we can read it?
[/ QUOTE ]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
It's always the contacts who are way out in BFE that want you to deliver them something after every mission.
Can we get video phones in i8?
[ QUOTE ]
Can we get video phones in i8?
[/ QUOTE ]
Or at least a Phone book after lvl 20...
"My life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely pretty and well preserved, but rather I will skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming...WOW...What a Ride"
[ QUOTE ]
Given the amount of area effect powers that our characters have, it's a wonder that more of us aren't in Frostfire's shoes in terms of accidentally destroying property and killing civillians.
(Yes, I know it's game mechanics, but plotwise if it could happen to Frosty it could happen to us ... it just won't.)
[/ QUOTE ]
It's funny, I finally read Kingdom Come this weekend and wondered if those same themes could be implemented in CoX.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Many villains are the result of unfortunate circumstances. His origins are tragic, yes, but he is now a criminal who routinely does very bad things. Despite the things that have happened TO him, he still needs to be brought to justice.
[/ QUOTE ]
What does he do? He hangs out in an abandoned building and gets his butt kicked 20-30 times a day. I feel sorry for the poor guy!
[/ QUOTE ]
All I know is that the guy hangs out with his friends in abandoned buildings. I mean the only reason you go and wack him is because some other guy, your contact, is spreading rumors that frosty is bad. Sounds like jealousy to me.
Has anyone noticed that if you don't attack anyone or cause agro in the build, that they wont attack you either. In fact a while ago they let me and my friends use their hangout as an ice skating getaway.
Maybe we all just have to stop picking on him and give him another chance.
If I knew how to add links i'd share some pics of clowns using the skate ramp =)
Well, some might say his heart was in the right place - I say nonsense. The kid was in need of therapy. See, his motivation wasn't that pure - he wanted to be famous - that was why he was fixated on heroes. Helping people is what many heroes will try to do. And I'm not so sure Spider-man couldn't be considered a murderer by some courts, as it was his web that snagged Gwen Stacy in such a way as to snap her neck. If not murder, negligent homicide.
However, I think Frostfire being a minor should have weighed into this case. he should have been sentenced until the age of majority, which in most places is 18.
But, what can we really expect from a society that condones this "vigilante" behavior. Missions may be supported by Paragon's governing bodies, but surely, laying waste to a bunch of Outcasts who are doing nothing more than standing on a street in peaceful assembly is against our real life laws. But, they aren't in this game.
Let's not blur this line between fiction and facts.
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
[ QUOTE ]
Heroes in Paragon are supposed to register their powers and operate with governmental oversight. He didn't do so and reaped the consequences.
[/ QUOTE ]
All say HALELUYAH for Government Oversight of everything..
Arguing about the logic behind continuity in American comics is like complaining about the pattern of dominos that are set up on the San Andreas Fault
Supplemental Galactic Protectorate Fanfic