Did Frostfire get a raw deal?
By
Acyl,
Posted on: 2006-06-28 15:10 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
So basically when I woke up this morning, suddenly had super powers, and then went to beat down this bum villain who was torching buildings downtown. We fight, I punch him off the roof where he lands and kills an unlucky bystander.
I do time for that?
What if I'm registered? That person still died. I do time for that? Or is it quietly swept under the rug simply because I'm a government agent wearing flagboy colors?
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i blame comunists
[/ QUOTE ]
Didn't you hear? There aren't any more communists. They're all gone.
[/ QUOTE ]
I guess no one told China, Castro, and that guy from North Korea that dresses like Dr Evil. 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Didn't you hear? There aren't any more communists. They're all gone.
[/ QUOTE ]
I guess no one told China, Castro, and that guy from North Korea that dresses like Dr Evil.
[/ QUOTE ]
No one had to. They're SO gone, they noticed all on their own. 
[ QUOTE ]
What if I'm registered? That person still died. I do time for that? Or is it quietly swept under the rug simply because I'm a government agent wearing flagboy colors?
[/ QUOTE ]
Let's see...
You get yourself a gun and walk around for a while. You see a guy robbing a convenience store and open fire, hitting the perp and a customer.
You go to the police academy and get yourself a badge and a job on the force. You intervene in a convenience store robbery and shoot the perp, accidentally hitting a bystander.
In the first case, you're clearly a vigilante who screwed up.
In the second, you're a government agent using government-sanctioned force. You'll probably get a review and assigned to a desk while under investigation, but if it was a good shoot, you'll be cleared.
It's the same thing in the hypothetical you presented.
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Lord Vetinari, Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett.
[ QUOTE ]
In the second, you're a government agent using government-sanctioned force. You'll probably get a review and assigned to a desk while under investigation, but if it was a good shoot, you'll be cleared.
[/ QUOTE ]
Depending on the particulars of the case, you may well be kicked off the force, even if you're not criminally charged. You may also be subject to a civil suit for wrongful death by the victim's family.
Yes, which is why I said "If it was a good shoot."
That sort of implies "particulars of the case."
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Lord Vetinari, Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i blame comunists
[/ QUOTE ]
Didn't you hear? There aren't any more communists. They're all gone.
[/ QUOTE ]
buh?
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
Cipher:
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, which is why I said "If it was a good shoot."
That sort of implies "particulars of the case."
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, I thought you just meant "well-aimed".
CommunistPenguin:
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i blame comunists
[/ QUOTE ]
Didn't you hear? There aren't any more communists. They're all gone.
[/ QUOTE ]
buh?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's true. You're either a liar or a figment of my imagination.
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, I thought you just meant "well-aimed".
[/ QUOTE ]
Whoops, I can see where that would cause confusion. My apologies.
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Lord Vetinari, Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, I thought you just meant "well-aimed".
[/ QUOTE ]
Whoops, I can see where that would cause confusion. My apologies.
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't apologize. I'm just BS'ing, to cover for my own embarassing lack of comprehension!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not to introduce religious overtones, but in situations like this, I like to ask myself, "What would Superman do?" Would Superman just beat him and fly away. No, Superman would do EVERYTHING in his power to redeem him. He tried with the Toyman (with mixed results). He tried with Major Disaster (also with mixed results but slightly better). I loved the issue of Superman in which he offers redemption to 3 or 4 different villains, and only Major Disaster took him up on it. Regarding Frosfire, Batman would just beat him, Superman would try to redeem him. To be fair to Batman though, after Superman inspired him to change Frostfire would probably get help from and/or get involved w/ a Wayne foundation funded charity. Heck Bruce would probably give the guy a job once he was on the straight and narrow.
Perhaps the Devs should set up a mission in which slightly higher-level characters could attempt to somehow redeem Frostfire! It should somehow involve saving his loved ones, then somehow get him out of trouble with higher up criminals? Heroes don't just beat up the bad guys. Pro wrestlers do that. Heroes do good.
--- Ollie
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that attempting to redeem is the heroic thing to do, disagree with your assessment of Batman though (well, ok movie batman is all about killing the bad guy) but the comics are full of his attempts to redeem villians Catwoman (ok she's a love interest so unpure motive there) but Two-face (even in the dark knight returns he wants to believe harvey is redeemed) even the Joker (Which went from a homicidal looney to a somewhat sympathetic villian in the "Killing Joke"). He even saved the joker from the death penalty because the Joker didn't commit the homicide he was going to get fried for
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying Batman would kill. He's just very focused on stopping the bad guy. In the end, he too will often go for redemption. His attitude towards Hal Jordan is a perfect example of this. My favorite Batman stories, however, are the ones in which he rises above being just a Vigilante, and behaves as a true hero. He rises above the angry vigilante type time and time again, and I think its important to show him as MORE then just a hurt little boy who wants to get the bad man who hurt his parents. As far as Supes goes, inspiration is his #1 gig. If he can save people but inspire nobody else to do so, he feels useless. Bat's really plays into this in IC when he wants to insult Supes and tells him "You haven't inspired anyone since you died." Talk about knowing what buttons to push.
Either way, it would be very Superman-like (and maybe Batman-like on a good day) if there was a Redeem Frostfire mission.
-- Ollie
Professionally certified pessimism expert
Statesman is someone who shouldn't rap ever, even if he's trying to help people out. -IolitePhoenix
Check out my Infinity toons at the Vis Viva family web page.
Either way, it would be very Superman-like (and maybe Batman-like on a good day) if there was a Redeem Frostfire mission.
He's been a villain for 27 years; it is, contrary to Ms. Francine Primm, far too late to think about redeeming this guy.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Been thinking a bit about this. Now, according to what we read, FF tries to use his fire to thaw out the store clerk when his powers go wild, and the end result is that the building burns down, the robber and the clerk are both dead, and another person as well.
Now the robber and the clerk could have died in the initial "power surge" so i will leave taht be for now, but.. what of the third person? He/she is not mentioned to be in the store, so he/she must either be on a different floor, or out back in the stores storage area.
So now we have the following, a person that is out of the direct "blast" but is still killed by the fire it causes. If we then take into concideration that this person has time to react to save him/herself but still can not do that. Ok, that could happen, but what of the fire department? Sure they might not have gotten there in time, those things happen all the time. But what of the heroes patroling the area? Even in the comic, Pargon City is shown to have an almost ridiculous ammount of heroes being just about everywhere all the time.
So that leaves us with.. a person that is killed by a burning building, but has not time to save him/herself, the firedepartment does not have time to react, and herose does not have time either. That means that building had to have gone up like a pile of century old dry paper.
Now take FF into concideration. Is he realy powerfull enough to make an entire building go up like that? Even with a surge? No, if he had, he would be blowing up city blocks for Malta instead of running a crummy streetgang.
To me, it sounds like that entire building was a firetrap just waiting to happen, and was most likely in violation of a multitude of fire safety violations. And most likley, FF got shafted (at least for the last death) to protect the owner of the building.
[ QUOTE ]
Been thinking a bit about this. Now, according to what we read, FF tries to use his fire to thaw out the store clerk when his powers go wild, and the end result is that the building burns down, the robber and the clerk are both dead, and another person as well.
Now the robber and the clerk could have died in the initial "power surge" so i will leave taht be for now, but.. what of the third person? He/she is not mentioned to be in the store, so he/she must either be on a different floor, or out back in the stores storage area.
So now we have the following, a person that is out of the direct "blast" but is still killed by the fire it causes. If we then take into concideration that this person has time to react to save him/herself but still can not do that. Ok, that could happen, but what of the fire department? Sure they might not have gotten there in time, those things happen all the time. But what of the heroes patroling the area? Even in the comic, Pargon City is shown to have an almost ridiculous ammount of heroes being just about everywhere all the time.
So that leaves us with.. a person that is killed by a burning building, but has not time to save him/herself, the firedepartment does not have time to react, and herose does not have time either. That means that building had to have gone up like a pile of century old dry paper.
Now take FF into concideration. Is he realy powerfull enough to make an entire building go up like that? Even with a surge? No, if he had, he would be blowing up city blocks for Malta instead of running a crummy streetgang.
To me, it sounds like that entire building was a firetrap just waiting to happen, and was most likely in violation of a multitude of fire safety violations. And most likley, FF got shafted (at least for the last death) to protect the owner of the building.
[/ QUOTE ]
but again how many heros were on every street corner in 1979?
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
From what I understand of the worlds mythology, Paragon City was the nexus of hero and villan activity. Both sides were drawn there because the other was as well. So it would be some sort of building cycle. I would say there were more then a few heroes out patrolling The Tick style nack in the late seventies and early eighties. Also consider that this is when alot of heroes were out fighting the drug war, so there were always heroes out and about turning streat pushers upside down from the tops of very very tall buildings. To me it isn't implosable that there would have been several nearby heroes when the building went up.
Spot on Tundara.
Also, keep in mind that this was only 10 years after the Might for Right article was kicked out of the system, so "Faith in the system" as it were would probably have been pretty low still, and that might explain why he didn´t register, or take the deal offered to him.
But what of the heroes patroling the area? Even in the comic, Pargon City is shown to have an almost ridiculous ammount of heroes being just about everywhere all the time.
How many of whom could have done a damned thing in the event of a building fire? Very few would have powers that could let them put the fire out without demolishing the building in the process -- pretty much just ice and storm heroes. We have building fires in-game and the vast majority of heroes need special gear to fight them. (The possiblity of a character with something like water powers can't be dismissed, but since such power sets aren't represented in game it is safe to conclude that if they exist at all, they are incredibly rare.) Heroes with TFoe/Recall could presumably snatch victims from the flames -- if they could see them. Heroes with the right defensive powers could possibly walk into the fire unscathed, but that's not much help to the victims if they're not reached quickly.
Finally, the report doesn't say how many people survived the fire.
So that leaves us with.. a person that is killed by a burning building, but has not time to save him/herself, the firedepartment does not have time to react, and herose does not have time either. That means that building had to have gone up like a pile of century old dry paper.
Not necessarily. The fire department simply may not have gotten to the scene in time. Additionally, the robbery was taking place in a convenience store. If that store had soda fountains, with compressed gas cannisters, they may have been set off in the initial blast. The same for natural gas lines used for heating or cooking.
To me, it sounds like that entire building was a firetrap just waiting to happen, and was most likely in violation of a multitude of fire safety violations.
There's not nearly enough information to justify that conclusion.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Good points there Venture. Let´s see if i can explain my point of view.
How many of whom could have done a damned thing in the event of a building fire? Very few would have powers that could let them put the fire out without demolishing the building in the process -- pretty much just ice and storm heroes. We have building fires in-game and the vast majority of heroes need special gear to fight them. (The possiblity of a character with something like water powers can't be dismissed, but since such power sets aren't represented in game it is safe to conclude that if they exist at all, they are incredibly rare.) Heroes with TFoe/Recall could presumably snatch victims from the flames -- if they could see them. Heroes with the right defensive powers could possibly walk into the fire unscathed, but that's not much help to the victims if they're not reached quickly.
Only if you use the powers like they are locked "in game". IE, energy blasts can only be used to damage badguys, or the odd item that needs to be blown up. A person with blaster powers could have used them to blow an extra escape route, or blow their way to the victim. A person with flight could have carried them to safety, yes i know most people don´t bother with Group Fly, but unless a persons Fly power work in some realy strange way, then carrying one person to safety should not be a problem. Same goes for Super Jump and Super Speed, and Super Speed also has the potential of that Whirlwind powers, that could possibly put a fire out. Heck, we see The Flash do that stuff every now and then. And that´s just the top of the proverbial iceberg. And no, the report does not report how many others were in that building, but i would be surprised if there were any others, or they would have smacked him with numerous accounts of Reckles Endangerment and/or Attempted Murders too, and that is not mentioned.
Not necessarily. The fire department simply may not have gotten to the scene in time. Additionally, the robbery was taking place in a convenience store. If that store had soda fountains, with compressed gas cannisters, they may have been set off in the initial blast. The same for natural gas lines used for heating or cooking.
Yes, the Firebrigade might not have gotten there in time, i´ve even stated that myself. I just find the combination of "Not being able to react in time self/Firebrigade is late/no Heroes in time either" rather strange and farfetched. As for a Soda Fountain that is powered by a gas that is explosive.... Eh, remind me to not visit the places you go to. I think i´ll stick to my CO2 treated drinks, a gas that is, if anything, fire retarding. 
As for gas lines, again, if they vere volatile enough to make a house go up like it was more or less doused in petrol, then there is something fishy going on, or there would be far fewer survivors in housefires than there are.
There's not nearly enough information to justify that conclusion.
No, but there is enough to form that opinion, and that it maybe should be looked into a bit closer. And as you may note, i never stated that that is what happened. I said "To me, it sounds like that..." /snip. That is a statement of opinion, not fact.
[ QUOTE ]
That what the republicans want you to think :P
[/ QUOTE ]
There are no republicans anymore, either.