Did Frostfire get a raw deal?
By
Acyl,
Posted on: 2006-06-28 15:10 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[ QUOTE ]
Let's say that you're hiking and you stumble across someone who's dangling over a cliff. You try to help pull the guy up, but you lose your grip and he falls to his death. Should you do jail time for that?
Depends, did you push him first?
[/ QUOTE ]
To make it on par with what Frostfire did ...
You come across a guy who looks to be about to be run over by a truck. You leap forward to push him out of the way, but accidentally knock him over the cliff. He manages to get a handhold, but while trying to pull him up you lose your grip and he falls to his death.
Should you do jail time for that?
My COX Fanfiction:
Blue's Assembled Story Links
You know what would be cool end game content. And as far as I know no hero missions have this. How about a redeem Frostfire story arc. It could be in the late 30's to mid 40's. Your contact could come to you with a amazing discovery.
Mission 1- Meet with Frostfire
Frostfire- Who escaped again not long after you arrested him last, has turned up again. But get this. it's not exactly what you think? He's willing to come clean and surrender himself to you. That's right, he's asked for you by name (Insert hero name here) and says that he has some important info concerning some major villain organization and some of their activitys. And he's willing to give everything he has and himself over to you. Go, meet with him at this location in Steel Canyon (Could be anywhere) and bring him in for justice. I dont have to warn you that this could be a trap, or probably is a trap. How often does the bad guy ever just turn himself in. But he asked for you personally. So that alone should make this meeting worth your while. Might want to bring some friends though.
Of course it's going to be a trap, but not exactly what you think. (Using the cutscene technology. Show Frostfire defeating a couple Malta and then beating heat out the back of the building.
You enter the mission and fight your way thru Malta galore, coming to the end of the mission you find a Malta gunslinger talking about bringing Frostfire in dead or alive, preferibly dead. After spanking the Malta goons you find a computer with partially erased data on a Malta plot to kill (Insert signature hero name here) and some clues in it that link it to Arachnos or the 5th Column or whatever bigger villain name group you want.
More to come.
'If Champions Online is what "CoH was supposed to be", I'm glad that I have what I have rather than "what it was supposed to be".' - The Alt oholic
"I solo'd Hamidon...but I also totally cheated." - Back Alley Brawler
"It is still early. Someone is going to get stabbed tonight I can feel it." - Ishmael (said in Jello Shooters chat)
Bah, I'm already out of ideas. Someone can carry this on if you want. But you get the idea. lol
The ending would be you and your team and Frostfire taking on some AV. Afterwards he turns himself in to pay for his crimes, however he has brought to light something that could have destroyed Paragon City and some of the Signature heroes. All in all it would give a story of redemption that CoH doesnt really have.
'If Champions Online is what "CoH was supposed to be", I'm glad that I have what I have rather than "what it was supposed to be".' - The Alt oholic
"I solo'd Hamidon...but I also totally cheated." - Back Alley Brawler
"It is still early. Someone is going to get stabbed tonight I can feel it." - Ishmael (said in Jello Shooters chat)
[ QUOTE ]
You know what would be cool end game content. And as far as I know no hero missions have this. How about a redeem Frostfire story arc. It could be in the late 30's to mid 40's. Your contact could come to you with a amazing discovery.
Mission 1- Meet with Frostfire
Frostfire- Who escaped again not long after you arrested him last, has turned up again. But get this. it's not exactly what you think? He's willing to come clean and surrender himself to you. That's right, he's asked for you by name (Insert hero name here) and says that he has some important info concerning some major villain organization and some of their activitys. And he's willing to give everything he has and himself over to you. Go, meet with him at this location in Steel Canyon (Could be anywhere) and bring him in for justice. I dont have to warn you that this could be a trap, or probably is a trap. How often does the bad guy ever just turn himself in. But he asked for you personally. So that alone should make this meeting worth your while. Might want to bring some friends though.
Of course it's going to be a trap, but not exactly what you think. (Using the cutscene technology. Show Frostfire defeating a couple Malta and then beating heat out the back of the building.
You enter the mission and fight your way thru Malta galore, coming to the end of the mission you find a Malta gunslinger talking about bringing Frostfire in dead or alive, preferibly dead. After spanking the Malta goons you find a computer with partially erased data on a Malta plot to kill (Insert signature hero name here) and some clues in it that link it to Arachnos or the 5th Column or whatever bigger villain name group you want.
More to come.
[/ QUOTE ]
Heh, I was going to suggest something like this. 'course to keep in tune with FF's character, he'd probably have some questionable methods to deal with the Malta. I'd probably also have the end of the arc leave FF's final fate up to the reader ie does FF ultimately turn good or does he fall back onto his anger and habits of however many years and remain a villain?
[ QUOTE ]
Finally, he was already up against it for freezing the shopkeeper and robber, which probably killed them before the fire in any case.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think so. I've seen ice blasters and ice controllers freeze people in blocks of ice hundreds of times and have yet to see any of them arrested for murder. 
Given that Blue Battler is an AR/Fire Blaster who's taken down countless bad guys with Full Auto and Fire Sword only to run into them again later, I'm willing to think that Paragon City has the tech to handle Peoplecicles...
My COX Fanfiction:
Blue's Assembled Story Links
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can I just say you guys all just made my day?
cheers,
Arctic Sun
PS Malta....with a special report from Crimson...soon.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do we have to take it to Indigo to get it decrypted before we can read it?
[/ QUOTE ]
Nah. Those two are just sending love notes back and forth.
"Dear Crimson,
Do u like me? ( ) Yes ( ) No
Indigo"
[ QUOTE ]
Nah. Those two are just sending love notes back and forth.
[/ QUOTE ]
You shut your dirty mouth! Indigo loves me and me alone!
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Lord Vetinari, Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett.
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps Frostfire was the victim of the Malta, helping to cause the fire, and everything else that went wrong. Not to mention that "our friends" have connections.....
Doesn't seem likely since he wasn't operating as a cosutmed vigilante yet.
[/ QUOTE ]
That doesn't seem to matter with the Malta Group. They're interested in anyone with superpowers, not just costumed vigilantes exclusively.
This entire thread was a Great read...but I've got to say, You are ALL Completely NUTS for debating Frostfire's sentence!! Its freakin Frostfire! Gaaahh! Or am I the insane one 0_o
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
5. Now, in a confined space and within the presence of two incapacitated people, he elected to use fire-based powers. Regardless of Frostfire's belief that he could do so successfully, it is a matter for the jury to decide if its reasonable to believe that using flame-based super powers in a confined space and in the presence of two incapacitated people is safe.
6. If the jury decides that its not a reasonable belief, then Frostfire's actions can be considered reckless.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's not the standard and I would never agree to such an instruction.
[/ QUOTE ]
That would be the case I would make, not the instruction to the jury. My read of Rhode Island cases suggests they are somewhat minimalistic in their jury instructions: juries are typically given the basic letter of the law without a lot of exposition by trial judges. I read one appellate ruling for a case where defense council asked the trial judge to provide a definition to the jury for the term "reckless" and was essentially ignored.
So of course, I'd be sure to make one up myself. However, in my personal opinion conducting dangerous activities in the presence of incapacitated people *is* reckless, and since Rhode Island law doesn't seem to define reckless, I'd suggest to the jury that as a reasonable person, mine was a reasonable definition to use.
And then I would make funny whistling sounds when the defense tried to offer an alternative one. Perhaps its best I didn't decide to go into law.
[ QUOTE ]
Under the laws of RI, the building must be unoccupied for it to constitute second degree arson. And I don't think they have negligent homicide in RI.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, you're right there: I assumed Rhode Island had similar statutes to what I'm familiar with: a dangerous assumption for Rhode Island, apparently, whos criminal statutes look like they were written by the DETH KICK guy. Frostfire should have been convicted of first degree arson, if anything.
As to negligent homicide, who the heck can tell anyway, besides an expert in Rhode Island law.
Title 11-23-3: Manslaughter
[ QUOTE ]
(a) Every person who shall commit manslaughter shall be imprisoned not exceeding thirty (30) years.
[/ QUOTE ]
That appears to be the entire section on manslaughter. Thanks, Rhode Island. Now tell me what manslaughter is, why don't you. Frostfire is probably lucky he wasn't convicted of "Mayhem:"
[ QUOTE ]
§ 11-29-1 Penalty for mutilation or disabling. Every person who shall voluntarily, maliciously or of purpose put out an eye, slit the nose, ear, or lip, or cut off, bite off, or disable any limb or member of another, shall be imprisoned not exceeding twenty (20) years nor less than one year.
[/ QUOTE ]
Does an ice hold count as disabling a limb, I wonder.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
I assumed Rhode Island had similar statutes to what I'm familiar with: a dangerous assumption for Rhode Island, apparently, whos criminal statutes look like they were written by the DETH KICK guy. Frostfire should have been convicted of first degree arson, if anything.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's a... law review article, I believe, examining the 5 best and worst written criminal codes. My recollection is that Rhode Island appears on the "worst" list.
Edit:
Oh, and Rhode Island case law specifies that manslaughter is defined as it traditionally was at common law.
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Lord Vetinari, Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I assumed Rhode Island had similar statutes to what I'm familiar with: a dangerous assumption for Rhode Island, apparently, whos criminal statutes look like they were written by the DETH KICK guy. Frostfire should have been convicted of first degree arson, if anything.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's a... law review article, I believe, examining the 5 best and worst written criminal codes. My recollection is that Rhode Island appears on the "worst" list.
Edit:
Oh, and Rhode Island case law specifies that manslaughter is defined as it traditionally was at common law.
[/ QUOTE ]
Rhode Island's criminal statutes seem to have a #import Common_Law at the top, with the nice caveat of basically "oh yeah, and we meant that too, unless we say we didn't."
In retrospect, going into engineering and watching Law and Order on TV instead was probably much better than had I attempted the reverse.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I assumed Rhode Island had similar statutes to what I'm familiar with: a dangerous assumption for Rhode Island, apparently, whos criminal statutes look like they were written by the DETH KICK guy. Frostfire should have been convicted of first degree arson, if anything.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's a... law review article, I believe, examining the 5 best and worst written criminal codes. My recollection is that Rhode Island appears on the "worst" list.
Edit:
Oh, and Rhode Island case law specifies that manslaughter is defined as it traditionally was at common law.
[/ QUOTE ]
Rhode Island's criminal statutes seem to have a #import Common_Law at the top, with the nice caveat of basically "oh yeah, and we meant that too, unless we say we didn't."
In retrospect, going into engineering and watching Law and Order on TV instead was probably much better than had I attempted the reverse.
[/ QUOTE ]
Outside of the 5 episodes of Dilbert do they even put engineers on TV? 
By contrast, there are approximately 192007 lawyer shows on right this minute!!
I think we can make several assumptions from this:
Designing a piece of software, a forklift, or even a spacecraft in a cubicle = not sexy 
Giving a closing argument in a well cut suit = dead sexy!!
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
Outside of the 5 episodes of Dilbert do they even put engineers on TV?
[/ QUOTE ]
The closest analogs to my job are CSI and House, and neither of them is in my field. There've probably been more train engineers on TV than technical engineers.
[ QUOTE ]
Giving a closing argument in a well cut suit = dead sexy!!
[/ QUOTE ]
I wonder how many attorneys got screwed by entering the profession after watching LA Law or Law & Order, but *not* Court TV. For that matter, I wonder how many jurors sit in the box day after day going "this guy sucks compared to Jack McCoy."
You're right about the closing argument part, though. Seriously. If I saw both Sam Waterson and Jill Hennessy at opposing counsel's table, I'd ask for a bench trial.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
You guys should think about giving that Frostfire a CoV named boss makeover. You know, those named bosses that look as if made with the character builder itself. Frostfire deserves to look distinctive.
[ QUOTE ]
I wonder how many attorneys got screwed by entering the profession after watching LA Law or Law & Order, but *not* Court TV.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have heard of prosecutors complaining that CSI has caused some jurors to demand slam-dunk evidence that is sometimes impossible to get.
It's called the CSI Effect, and it's VERY real.
I've heard from prosecutors who have gotten cases where they literally apprehended the guy with the weapon AND the loot -- but the jurors acquitted because the prosecution didn't offer DNA evidence.
Also, Jack McCoy is my role model. I may be one of those people who started law school on account of Law & Order, but in all honesty, I stayed because I *really* want to be a prosecutor.
(Edit: I DID watch a lot of Court TV, too. But I think it was Law & Order that really sold me. And it wasn't a choice I made frivolously, so I don't want to give that impression either.)
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Lord Vetinari, Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett.
[ QUOTE ]
In another thread I saw a post by Shyster that led to this bio of Frostfire .
After reading it, I'm not so sure that Frostfire didn't get railroaded a bit.
Frosty was acting in a Good Samaritan manner and things went kablooey on him ... and he was going to get jail time for that? Is that kosher?
[/ QUOTE ]
Consider that this the same city where super powered heroes are both tagged (for "medical teleport") and licensed for their use of their own superpowers. And where said heroes are allowed to beat up gang members merely for standing on street corners in disctricts of King's Row. Or knocking members of certain militia groups off their soapboxes... literally, without due cause.
I think we need to stop worrying about Frostfire, at the moment nothing is changing for him, same beatings as usual.
We should be worried about Jenkins in Arachnos. I dont want him mutated and put inside of a tarantula only to have me blow him up!!!!
Being that we cant sue Arachnos, i have created a way to bring them down. Arachnos minions are promoted when they kill heroes/villains, thus earning a higher wage. If we allow ourselves to be defeated by them then too many minions will be promoted and Arachnos wont be able to pay them all thus causing Arachnos to go bankrupt. Its so simple!!!
Well, if you really want to, you could wait until they attack you.
Sure they put engineers on TV. Myth busters. Not all of us are boring too watch.
Besides who do you think came up with kegs for college parties
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think so. I've seen ice blasters and ice controllers freeze people in blocks of ice hundreds of times and have yet to see any of them arrested for murder.
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course not. They are licensed heros. And they are accurate enough with their powers to only freeze the people that they want to freeze -- I've seen ice controllers put 3 gangsters on ice without even giving their hostage goose bumps.
[ QUOTE ]
He was acting as an actual vigilante.
Heroes in Paragon are supposed to register their powers and operate with governmental oversight. He didn't do so and reaped the consequences.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, we basically have here what the Powers Registration Act in Marvel SHOULD be. All heroes are, in essence, government agents (though we'd be considered contractors or freelancers in many ways) and we get paid for our acts.
In addition, the non-legal elements of the ideal legislature dealing with superhumans is also in place, namely the cateloguing of various health needs of the unusual biology of various creatures.
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
[ QUOTE ]
I think we need to stop worrying about Frostfire, at the moment nothing is changing for him, same beatings as usual.
We should be worried about Jenkins in Arachnos. I dont want him mutated and put inside of a tarantula only to have me blow him up!!!!
Being that we cant sue Arachnos, i have created a way to bring them down. Arachnos minions are promoted when they kill heroes/villains, thus earning a higher wage. If we allow ourselves to be defeated by them then too many minions will be promoted and Arachnos wont be able to pay them all thus causing Arachnos to go bankrupt. Its so simple!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Jenkins is the incarnate of the wine god Bacchus. You have nothing to worry about.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
[Here's another way of looking at it. Suppose Frostfire just randomly has an unlicensed handgun when he saw the robbery taking place. He goes in there and starts firing blindly all over the place because he has no idea how to properly use a firearm. In the process, he accidentally shoots and kills the shopkeeper. Should he get off easy then, despite his good intentions?
[/ QUOTE ]
First off that could never happen, to have a handgun he would have to be a mastermind AT, second that would be a third powerset a big nono for any new hero/villian.
Nemsis lv50 Inv/SS
Arch-Nemsis lv 50 SS/Inv