Official Thread for Masterminds: Thugs
By
008Zulu,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 11:49 in Developers' Corner
My 2influ it's been said but here we go
1. No clips throw do rags. bandanas you know there colors when they are Tru gang members
2. No whistle cell phone all the way
3. upgrade anumation if u throw bandanas or du rags show them tieing them on as they power up
4. they are to slow speed them up
5.they are a bit on the dumb side
6. Gang war needs a big AI upgrade they never want to attack they kill the 1 guy u use to summon them then stand around looking dumb even when u engage another enemy
7. pistol attacks need a end reduction hard to use them with out suckin wind
Over all best MM set IMO for a 1st timer in the land of MM's i have made a many MM but never stayed with it but i love this set and i am primed and ready to roll 1 on live
I'm Noise'
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First tier pet:
Guns disappear when firing after upgrade.
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This has to be a bug that only a few people have. I haven't noticed my Thugs doing this.
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Actually no. I played with other MM's and asked them to watch for it. It appears to happen while solo and not when teamd. look at your punks from all angles as they are fighting to see this occur.
My update for this weekend so far is that they gun animations tends to dissapear if one of two things happen. (1) The target dies mid shot (2) they lose agro of the target mid shot. My MM also had the guns disappear mid shot because the target died before the gun went off.
(While Defensive) The thugs also lose agro easily. If the foe starts to miss you or them they just stop and stand there until someone gets hit.
The MM pet description says that they "will not run out of melee range to use range attacks". Well they forgot to read the memo, cause they've been doing that all weekend.
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happens all the time for me, have bugged in game but they just told me to power everthing here 
Broomhilda BS/Regen/BM Scrapper, Fiddle Faddle Shield/ElecM/BM Tank,
And many others..
Dev's With all the Great new content, Please!! dont forget to fix the bugs with the old content. There is a storm a brewing because they are not getting fixed. If its a problem that no one is reporting them? Well Maybe you need to look at your tech support then..
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I've got to point out that the sideways "Gangsta" shooting is actually real...
This style of shooting was invented in China, I believe, and is called "Bandit Shooting." It's used to (Inaccurately) clear entire rooms. Of course, I may be spewing BS, but that's the facts I've got.
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All hail the great and all knowing Wikipedia...
The specific article is about the Mauser C96.
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Because of the machine pistol variants' difficult recoil, the Chinese invented a special way of using full-automatic models of this gun, by holding the gun sideways while clearing rooms during urban warfare which proved to be effective against the Japanese invaders. The Japanese called it "Bandit Shooting" due to bandits and warlords in China tending to own these types of guns.
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Go figure... my MM learned to shoot from Tommy Tong.
As for the first upgrade, this weekend has been strange to say the least, animation-wise. The clip has now become a boomerang. I throw the clip and it spins and hovers to the right side of the punk and then appears on the punks left hand. The actuall yellow ZZZT is greatly delayed (as in I start to run and then I hear them make the noise).
As for the MM's losing weapons since BETA, I've mainly played Necro with some bit of Bot's. My Grave Knights have never lost their sword mid fight or what not. Even if the mob is down and we move to the next, they run with the sword. So I thought that was normal and not this disappearing weapon stuff.
The whole thng about thug hench's being unmovable is annoying. Normally you can push them aside on tight doorways and such, and now they push me (yesterday right through a wall). I forgot who is the MM again?
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It's not just the spraycan of upgrade juice that's following a weird trajectory. At the moment, all "thrown" attacks, ones that are supposed to have a ballistic arc, are going sort of random. If you team with a */poison MM, you'll see that his Alkaloid healing is following similarly weird arcs, and when you get your 3rd level 1 pet, the Arsonist, you'll see that his molotov cocktails also fly weird routes. Presumably it's a bug with the new physics settings and will be fixed.
Henchmen are movable. That's what the Go command is for. You've been playing a melee-oriented mastermind since October and you don't have a Go macro or keybind?
has anyone noticed that everynow and then one of ur pets will run into melee like the robots pets do? for instance we are all shooting at range (lvl 6 mm btw) its me and my 2 thugs and mind u its a pretty big group we are fighting.
then one of my thugs decides to dive head first into the group and pistol whip some bad guys.. now mind u this was very funny b/c i laugh wenever my thug pistol whips sumbody but it got him killed. but its not all bad b/c he still remebered he could shoot his gun.. my guess is that my thug has dreams of being The Cleric from EQ or Neo perhaps lol
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Kind of gave me the idea that perhaps if you create a female Thug MM then you might offer female Pets. I know other setslike Merc's, Zombies, and Ninja's don't have that but it would fit this particular AT a little better than the others. An all chick gang... I kind of like that idea.
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My MM is female, and in fact was originally visualized as the impromptu "leader" of a female gang. I adapted a little bit when it turned out the Thugs were all going to be male, again. 
At any rate, I certainly would not have any problem with some female henches, and they've been asked for since at least beta.
There's an ongoing rumor about a Carnie MM, but frankly I doubt that's gonna happen. We're not that lucky. 
Btw, I personally have no problem with the "N-Sync-ness" of the first-tier Thugs, and in fact I like the idea. Gang members in fact can be normal-looking people; it's only obvious who's in your average gang in the movies. My MM will take whoever she can get, and if they're suburbanite wannabes, then whatever, as long as they can shoot and brawl.
I'm honestly curious just what people were expecting Thugs to look like. Sure, a small minority were looking to make a Family-type character, and I can dig their disappointment, but what about the rest of ya?
::grunts at the spelling::
Just a few rebuttles:
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My 2influ it's been said but here we go
1. No clips throw do rags. bandanas you know there colors when they are Tru gang members
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There were gangs long before there were hoods. Also this isn't a gang power-set, it's thugs and thugs and gangs can be two seperate things.
At first I though that was the road they were going down (thugs in gangs etc) however I'm pleasantly surprised to see they did NOT go down that pathetic path. If they opted to go that route I'd not be testing thugs nor would I build one on live.
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2. No whistle cell phone all the way
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Would require different animation, longer cast time and again... this isn't some lame [censored] "in the hood" gang. Whistling is very common when calling attention to things. ::whistles:: "Over here boys, there's some Longbow..."
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3. upgrade anumation if u throw bandanas or du rags show them tieing them on as they power up
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Longer upgrade time, shelving the power-set to create all new animations and again, this isn't a gang. It's a group of thugs.
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4. they are to slow speed them up
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/signed
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5.they are a bit on the dumb side
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/signed again. They seem to be having some pathing issues. Thay have issues accepting an enemy as dead. (I had one stand over the body of a dead enemy [set to aggressive] while other enemies were attacking me.) They're also supposed to be ranged biased but sometimes they love running 50' upt o an enemy and pistol whipping him. But this has happened since beta. I don't think I've ever had a group of bots that always avoided closing to melee. So this is AI issue with biasing.
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7. pistol attacks need a end reduction hard to use them with out suckin wind
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IMO as a player since almost day one I'm finding pistols refreshingly sparing on endurance. With the support of a couple thugs my endurance lasts quite a while.
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Henchmen are movable. That's what the Go command is for. You've been playing a melee-oriented mastermind since October and you don't have a Go macro or keybind?
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He's referring to the ability to push pets/henchemen.
For example, if my bots are blocking a doorway, I don't NEED to tell them to move, I can slowly push past them. This is NOT true for Thugs, at least the first tier pets. I summoned one, ran into him thinking he'd move and I'd slide past, nope. Was like running into a brick wall. Sat there for a minute attacking him from all angles and the sob didn't budge an inch. So it's bugged and hopefully fixed.
However, the go command is fine in a situation like that but in the middle of a tough battle in a bottle-neck on a big team your teammates need to be able to push past the pets/hencies on their own and not depend on the mm to move them.
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I'm honestly curious just what people were expecting Thugs to look like. Sure, a small minority were looking to make a Family-type character, and I can dig their disappointment, but what about the rest of ya?
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I either thought family or 'gangsta-lamer' crap. I'm glad it's not tied to either as neither is the least bit appealing to me (Mafia, the wanna-be mafia, 'gangstas' all just need to be put down irl).
My experience with the thug powerset over the weekend was mixed.
Thugs changing appearance every time you summon them - This was a pain for me because I kept losing track of my punk. I'd mistake him for NPCs or other MMs thugs.
I understand why they do this, but that doesn't make it any less a PITA.
Thugs getting lost - Pathing in Mercy seems to be screwed up royally. I had to run far enough to make my pet teleport to me quite a few times. Otherwise he'd ignore 'Attack' commands.
Punks attacking at range - My experience here was pretty good. He wouldn't retreat out of range if he didn't have to, but if someone started meleeing him, he'd take a few steps back. He didn't attack from melee range unless he had to. More than once , I was side to side or back to back with my punk, which was really cool.
Dual Wield - Wow. This seems really slow and clumsy. I'd much rather bring my pistols up one at a time and fire them in close sequence, John-Woo style.
You don't rename your henches? Mine so far are named Chico and Ray-ray. Gonna name my Bruiser (er, the third-tier anyway) Little-bit.
Lots of people complain about the changing appearance, but I think they'd complain about a set appearance too...what if you don't like the look they get? Reroll?
EDIT: I was thinking Enforcer was the third-tier. Duh.
Ok, here are my thoughts up to level 12 with my thug/poison:
-Punks seemed a little underpowered, until I got my enforcer. it was like day and night! (lvl 11, fought a -1 EB and barely pulled it out, lvl 12 fought an even EB and wasn't even a fight!)
-They seem to have more pathing problems than other sets, and I'm not talking about the well known mercy madness.
-The burst dmg they can put out is off the hook! the thug alpha strike seems to do a lot more a lot faster than, for eg, the merc alpha.
-Not sure why anyone is complaining about the shifting appearance, I have NEVER had a problem "finding" my pets, and given there are only like 5 or 6 appearances they cycle through, how hard is it really?
-The dual wield animation is meh, but not a serious issue IMHO.
-OMGZORZ MY ENFORCER JUST CAME OUT OF THE SEWER!!!111 I GOT A FREAKING NINJA TURTLE FOR A PET!!!!!1111eleventy.
-IMHO /poison and /TA are not good choices for thugs, /dark and /traps would be best, /FF would be decent
-A bunch of spelling errors in the descriptions and speech, but then again mercs have been shouting "safeteis off!" (or whatev it is) for a while now.
-Once again, I gotta say, complaining about the shifting appearance seems ludicrous to me, if you cannot find your own pet, who just happens to have GREEN TEXT WITH YOUR OWN NAME FLOATING OVER HIS HEAD then you have bigger problems IMHO. If you are really that concerned, resummon.
Those are just my thoughts so far, YMMV of course. Looking forward to getting my thug/traps going on live when i7 is released from its testing cage.
This is just weird, but npc citizens are afraid of my enforcer. They'll ignore me and my first-teir punks, but once the enforcer comes around they react. Most of the Rogue Isles population just turns around and goes the other way, but some (esp. the construction guys carrying stuff) will do the "cower and then run away screaming" reaction.
I also noticed that other Thug MM's enforcers' leadership buffs will stack with the ones from mine (ie I am teamed with another thug MM who has an enforcer out, my thug minions will end up with two leadership buff icons of each type). I am not entirely sure if this is intended. If it is, cool.
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There's an ongoing rumor about a Carnie MM, but frankly I doubt that's gonna happen. We're not that lucky.
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It's not a rumor, yo!!
From ask Statesman:
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Do you seriously think that there's any chance of seeing clown mastermind pets?
Clowns? NEVER. Carnival set, with clowns, strongmen and acrobats? Definitely.
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This is just weird, but npc citizens are afraid of my enforcer. They'll ignore me and my first-teir punks, but once the enforcer comes around they react. Most of the Rogue Isles population just turns around and goes the other way, but some (esp. the construction guys carrying stuff) will do the "cower and then run away screaming" reaction.
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Well they do come out of the sewers.
** Insert Michael Jackson's "Beat It" here **
Who would you be more afraid of? Look at the two...A guy who looks like he uses a knife for a toothpick or three kids who couldn't make the cut in American Idol?
Now if we can have gang war all emote in unison and the have w00t Radio play the aforementioned song....we have the making of a good video
Kenja's Logitec G15 Masters Guide
Kenja's Concise Commands and Emotes Guide (I10)
Kenja's Links Guide for Badge Collectors
Visit SalsaVille!
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There's an ongoing rumor about a Carnie MM, but frankly I doubt that's gonna happen. We're not that lucky.
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It's not a rumor, yo!!
From ask Statesman:
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Do you seriously think that there's any chance of seeing clown mastermind pets?
Clowns? NEVER. Carnival set, with clowns, strongmen and acrobats? Definitely.
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It is less than a rumour.
States merely highlighted that there was *definitely* a chance in that post - and we've heard nothing since. As we've had quite a lot of attention in I7, I really doubt we'll see anything substantial now (eg. a new pet set) for at least a year.
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I'm honestly curious just what people were expecting Thugs to look like. Sure, a small minority were looking to make a Family-type character, and I can dig their disappointment, but what about the rest of ya?
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I wasn't look for Family type or gangsta but I was looking for some "tough" looking henchman rather than the current "skate punk". I don't mind them looking normal but as they are now they just look weak. The Tier 1s even look a bit to small to be carrying the size of the guns they have. I was expecting they at least to be on par with the body size of the lowliest of Skulls, Hellions, or Outcasts, but they don't. Compared to those groups they look mal-nurished.
The current look just doesn't look very Thug to me. I saw the Tier 2 the other day on test and he at least looks normal sized and not all skin and bones. As I have said in other posts my "bad" guy just wouldn't hang with these scrubs much less work with them.
Specifically what I expected came from the video that was going around from Cryptic some time ago. Don't remember what it is made for but there is a still shot breaking down the thugs in that someone made and those guys look right on time. Wish I had a link for the shot but I know I got it from these forums so its around here if you have not seen it. Much more cool than the current thug incarnation imo.
Edit: Found the video still picture. This is what I expected the Thugs to look like. And I don't care if they couldn't keep the trenchcoats at least these guys have some meat on their bones and visual flavor.
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Dr Thorpe
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Edit: Found the video still picture. This is what I expected the Thugs to look like. And I don't care if they couldn't keep the trenchcoats at least these guys have some meat on their bones and visual flavor.
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Dr Thorpe
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That IS how they look once they get the second upgrade.
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You don't rename your henches? Mine so far are named Chico and Ray-ray. Gonna name my Bruiser (er, the third-tier anyway) Little-bit.
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1st Tier:
Funboy
Shank (H should be a K, but ya know...)
Tin Tin
2nd Tier:
T-Bird
Top Dollar
3rd Tier:
Tiny
Perfectly fitting (but unoriginal) scrawny dude names. I haven't been able to come up with anything better for the third tier. Although Wretch might be a good one.
I'm sorry, but I'm happy that they are not Family looking guys. The current thugs have a bit more flair than guys uniformly dressed in suits. But I like the fact that they "butch" up a bit as you upgrade them. 
It would be nice if folks could get a little customization in there so we can tell who is who. The random combinations are fun the first couple times you summon them but makes it difficult to track you henchmen. Now I'm depending on bodyguard to keep me alive and if he (or they) take off running I'm going to be in a world of hurt.
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Edit: Found the video still picture. This is what I expected the Thugs to look like. And I don't care if they couldn't keep the trenchcoats at least these guys have some meat on their bones and visual flavor.
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Dr Thorpe
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That IS how they look once they get the second upgrade.
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Is that confirmed? Seems a lot of stuff to add on costume wise. They get a do rag, bandana, sun glasses, vest, and chest symbol all on the last upgrade? The arsonist loses his arm bandages?
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Edit: Found the video still picture. This is what I expected the Thugs to look like. And I don't care if they couldn't keep the trenchcoats at least these guys have some meat on their bones and visual flavor.
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Dr Thorpe
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That IS how they look once they get the second upgrade.
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Is that confirmed? Seems a lot of stuff to add on costume wise. They get a do rag, bandana, sun glasses, vest, and chest symbol all on the last upgrade? The arsonist loses his arm bandages?
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I hope they get something like that, because all I can think of when I see the current enforcers is that scene from Police Academy where the two guys go into the Blue Oyster room. Everytime I see them I just have that song go through my head.
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3rd Tier:
Tiny
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Bwa hah. They should hard code that. They should all be named Tiny. (Mostly kidding.) Or maybe Bear. Do guys that size ever have any other nicknames?
As for your level 1 to 5 minions looking like punks, like wannabes -- dude, at level 1 to 5, you're a wannabe. You can barely scare a Hellion's girlfriend. How tough a gang do you think you can recruit at that level? I like the fact that they don't start looking perceptibly tough until level 6. Nor am I disappointed that they don't turn genuinely scary until level 32. As anybody who's been to Siren's Call can tell you, until you get to around that level you're not very scary, either. Even if you have a scary costume, until you've got a wide range of powers including pool powers, plus plenty of slottage with single-origin enhancements, you could be the scariest looking villain in the game and all that makes you is a punk in a Halloween costume.
It's only slightly more extreme than the way upgrades effect mercs, truthfully. The level 1 to 5 merc, un-upgraded, doesn't even have a helmet. And while the level 2 upgrade isn't quite as extreme a makeover as it is for thugs, it really is the point at which mercs stop looking under-equipped.
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Edit: Found the video still picture. This is what I expected the Thugs to look like. And I don't care if they couldn't keep the trenchcoats at least these guys have some meat on their bones and visual flavor.
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Dr Thorpe
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That IS how they look once they get the second upgrade.
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You have seen this on test? No offense but there are so many posts with people saying this only for them to say its speculation or wishful thinking when pressed. Do you have screens from test with the upgrade? Maybe just links to some or a thread with someone who is high enough to say for sure?
I really, really hope you are right but until I see some current test screens I have to agree with Raindog that it seems way to radical a costume change for an upgrade power based on what the second upgrade does for the current crop MMs on live. Again I hope I am wrong.
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Dr Thorpe
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My update for this weekend so far is that they gun animations tends to dissapear if one of two things happen. (1) The target dies mid shot (2) they lose agro of the target mid shot. My MM also had the guns disappear mid shot because the target died before the gun went off.
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This actually isn't something that only happens to Thugs. It happens to every MM set(except bots since they don't actually pull any weapons out). Ninja lose their swords, Mercs lose the guns... This is something thats been around since beta.
"Through Avarice evil smiles; through insanity it sings"
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