[ QUOTE ]
My only problem with all this, Castle, is sort of a general concern with the state of PvP now and in the future.
CoX PvP has seemed to me-- and it seemed to me the devs were implying it to be true in the past-- that CoX PvP is balanced around TEAM PvP, not Solo work. This seems to me to be just the latest in a line of changes that slowly chip away at that to make the game more fun for people that want to solo-pwn every one and everything.
Maybe it's just me, but I LIKED the fact that intially, there were ATs/powersets that could chew up another AT for breakfast, but stand no chance against another one. Stalkers, one-shotting, Hurricane-pinning... NONE of these are major problems for a decently-outfitted team working together. If a Caner pins you, You get a Corr or Blaster to blast the heck out of them, problem solved. If the caner's team provides better support than yours does... well, clearly the more organized, better PvP players have won. If you're solo... well, better rethink your strategy. Heck, Hurricane... there's lots of ways to deal with it, if you bother to team. Corrupters, masterminds, Dommies all have range, Dommies can just hold the Stormie and shut off the cane so you can beat the tar out of them, and /EA brutes, at least, and maybe /EA Stalkers can just wade right through the Repel to beat the heck out of them. ASes can be dealt with with Tactics and /SR scrappers and so on, massive damage can be turned by taunting tanks that can take it... point is, there's a lot of ways already existing to deal with these problems without taking the teeth out of sets.
Anyway. My concern here is that we're slowly moving away from the team-based nature of PvP balance that actually makes it FUN for a lot of us that don't usually enjoy PvP, and putting it back in the hands of the soloist "I pwn j00 all" mentalities. I worry that changes like this end up just frustrating people that take the sets, and they leave PvP, maybe at best roll a character "better suited" to PvP, and the experience slowly funnels down to a bunch of Stalkers and Brutes and a bunch of scrappers and maybe tanks beating on each other all day. What fun *that* would be... 
I'm not saying it's going to happen. But I think it could, with the direction PvP changes have been going.
PS: I am a soloist in PvP who occassionally teams. I find the teams the most fun, but I like the challenge of solo work. I expect to get my butt handed to me on a platter regularly. And yes, i do prefer it that way-- it gives me something to hone skills against. I'd rather find ways around Cane pinning than remove it, as it ultimately makes me a better player, and happier for the PvP experience.
[/ QUOTE ]
You have obviously not been on the opposing end of teams with multiple storm trollers/defenders on auto follow, while the person they are following weaves in and out of a large two - three team group of enemies.
I have, and I can say that no team can/could sufficiently stop the stormer with the lingering -range debuff that made any ranged attack drop to no accuracy. Sure he might die, but not often enough to turn the tides in favor of the opposers. You can't kill a moving stormer without range, and can't attack with range when the stormer constantly debuffs you.
This was a major issue for my SG in SC on virtue, and is one of th main reasons I have not set foot in one of our regular PvP zone events (which took place 3-4 times a week earlier this year, before we started getting the storm sweep "strategy" pulled on us) for over 2 months.
PvP is very enjoyable with teamwork, but having a stormer on AF, and significantly abusing the debuff and status affects makes any teamwork on the opposing end a chore and extremely unnatractive.
/em salute to the devs for finally fixing this, I just hope it's as great as it sounds.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
/em wonders when the devs are gonna realize that Force Bubble has the same "problem" that convinced em to zap Hurricane.
[/ QUOTE ]
The worst parts about getting debuffed by hurricane was the nasty to-hit debuff and its -range. The -tohit was easily countered at the higher levels(FA, AIM, BU, etc). The -range was the only form of mitigation against ranged toons for the Storm summoning set. It made only since that storm should be able to keep melee out when they are so vulnerable to everything else.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the only thing I really wanted to change in this mess was the ability for Repel Fields to effectively trap a player against geometry in Base Raids. I'm aware other powers have the same problem. I'll address those individually, though -- the same type of change made to Hurricane can be made, but for the most part, those powers have fewer aspects to them that Hurricane does. That makes getting them right considerably harder.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see how. Seems to me - less aspects, less tangents, less variables = easier job. As long as you haven't lost track on which way the PvE and PvP knob is pointed when you get around to "getting the other powers right", I'm satisfied.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
/em wonders when the devs are gonna realize that Force Bubble has the same "problem" that convinced em to zap Hurricane.
[/ QUOTE ]
The worst parts about getting debuffed by hurricane was the nasty to-hit debuff and its -range. The -tohit was easily countered at the higher levels(FA, AIM, BU, etc). The -range was the only form of mitigation against ranged toons for the Storm summoning set. It made only since that storm should be able to keep melee out when they are so vulnerable to everything else.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the only thing I really wanted to change in this mess was the ability for Repel Fields to effectively trap a player against geometry in Base Raids. I'm aware other powers have the same problem. I'll address those individually, though -- the same type of change made to Hurricane can be made, but for the most part, those powers have fewer aspects to them that Hurricane does. That makes getting them right considerably harder.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wait a second! What are you planning with Force Bubble? It repels. That's all it does. Taking away repel means it creates a big bubble that does absolutely nothing.
Have you ever seen 2 spines or claws scrappers hit crits at the same time? All it takes is a little coordination.
[ QUOTE ]
Wait a second! What are you planning with Force Bubble? It repels. That's all it does. Taking away repel means it creates a big bubble that does absolutely nothing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, to be more precise, I predict it may be a big bubble that does absolutely nothing ... indoors ... except maybe drain your endurance a little less as a result of the impending nerf.
"Pretty bubbles in the whine .... pretty bubbles ... make me happy, make me feel fine ... "
Hmm...I want balance and my godly powers too.
How special. 
I'm speaking from villain side, not hero side. I should have pointed that out.
Stalkers are already considered over-powered in PvP, and it's not exactly fair that only melee toons have/had a chance against stormers.
You show me a villain AT that can shoot a stormer down with a ranged attack in the ammount of time it takes for that villain to be singled out and targetted by multiple blasters/scrappers and trollers/defs with holds.
The damage done by that person wouldn't have been enough to kill the stormer before they are killed by the stormers teamates.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, the only thing I really wanted to change in this mess was the ability for Repel Fields to effectively trap a player against geometry in Base Raids.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then why didn't you only alter this aspect for base raids?!? Surely the fact that dual coding for powers already exists between PvP and PvE would make adding in a 3rd set for Base Raids quite possible.
Better yet, I am still waiting for you to explain why this even needs to be done in the first place. Especially in light of the large number of ways to take down hurricane provided in this thread alone. Remember, base raids are now set to level 50 (not 30 like all the complaints coming from Siren's Call players). But rather it seems hurricane was wrecked to accommodate Siren's Call PvP without fully realizing how over gimped the power would be in level 50 PvP.
As this continues to be the way the devs tackle PvP issues with this game, I am now going to make regularly requests for changes that must be instigated in order to better balance PvP (/e opens up a can of sarcasm).
First up, Defenders must be able to 2-3 shot a tank or scrapper without any assistance from another player! 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You'll be suprised what 1 web grenade can do.
[/ QUOTE ]
If we're bringing temporary powers into play (and given we're talking about a Stalker here, we are), there's nothing stopping the Stormer from having a breakfree Discipline running to stop the stun and a heal inspiration or two to counter the damage, making your efforts amount to nothing. Or for that matter just hyper phasing for a short bit while webbed, something I've found to be quite effective. And all this assumes the Stormer hadn't been constantly hugging you with the Hurricane in the first place, in which case your all ready low base accuracy web grenade isn't hitting, if you can even get in range for it. Web grenade ultimately amounts to a "hahaha, here I come!" for the Stormer, and if they're prepared and capable, that's not what you want.
As I said, the tactic is for less experienced, less competent Stormers, because good, well prepared ones aren't going to get shut down by it. Hurricane's best counters were always of the ranged variety, because although there WERE melee recourses, they were of the variety that good Stormers could avoid pretty effectively, and evidently the development team wasn't happy with that.
[/ QUOTE ]
*shrugs* I just wait till I see the empath hit their auras (Recovery and Healing) then TP in for the kill.
Currently roleplaying, badgehunting, and laughing at the PvPers of CoX. lol, PvP.
Truedusk - Human Rogue
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My only problem with all this, Castle, is sort of a general concern with the state of PvP now and in the future.
CoX PvP has seemed to me-- and it seemed to me the devs were implying it to be true in the past-- that CoX PvP is balanced around TEAM PvP, not Solo work. This seems to me to be just the latest in a line of changes that slowly chip away at that to make the game more fun for people that want to solo-pwn every one and everything.
Maybe it's just me, but I LIKED the fact that intially, there were ATs/powersets that could chew up another AT for breakfast, but stand no chance against another one. Stalkers, one-shotting, Hurricane-pinning... NONE of these are major problems for a decently-outfitted team working together. If a Caner pins you, You get a Corr or Blaster to blast the heck out of them, problem solved. If the caner's team provides better support than yours does... well, clearly the more organized, better PvP players have won. If you're solo... well, better rethink your strategy. Heck, Hurricane... there's lots of ways to deal with it, if you bother to team. Corrupters, masterminds, Dommies all have range, Dommies can just hold the Stormie and shut off the cane so you can beat the tar out of them, and /EA brutes, at least, and maybe /EA Stalkers can just wade right through the Repel to beat the heck out of them. ASes can be dealt with with Tactics and /SR scrappers and so on, massive damage can be turned by taunting tanks that can take it... point is, there's a lot of ways already existing to deal with these problems without taking the teeth out of sets.
Anyway. My concern here is that we're slowly moving away from the team-based nature of PvP balance that actually makes it FUN for a lot of us that don't usually enjoy PvP, and putting it back in the hands of the soloist "I pwn j00 all" mentalities. I worry that changes like this end up just frustrating people that take the sets, and they leave PvP, maybe at best roll a character "better suited" to PvP, and the experience slowly funnels down to a bunch of Stalkers and Brutes and a bunch of scrappers and maybe tanks beating on each other all day. What fun *that* would be...
I'm not saying it's going to happen. But I think it could, with the direction PvP changes have been going.
PS: I am a soloist in PvP who occassionally teams. I find the teams the most fun, but I like the challenge of solo work. I expect to get my butt handed to me on a platter regularly. And yes, i do prefer it that way-- it gives me something to hone skills against. I'd rather find ways around Cane pinning than remove it, as it ultimately makes me a better player, and happier for the PvP experience.
[/ QUOTE ]
You have obviously not been on the opposing end of teams with multiple storm trollers/defenders on auto follow, while the person they are following weaves in and out of a large two - three team group of enemies.
I have, and I can say that no team can/could sufficiently stop the stormer with the lingering -range debuff that made any ranged attack drop to no accuracy. Sure he might die, but not often enough to turn the tides in favor of the opposers. You can't kill a moving stormer without range, and can't attack with range when the stormer constantly debuffs you.
This was a major issue for my SG in SC on virtue, and is one of th main reasons I have not set foot in one of our regular PvP zone events (which took place 3-4 times a week earlier this year, before we started getting the storm sweep "strategy" pulled on us) for over 2 months.
PvP is very enjoyable with teamwork, but having a stormer on AF, and significantly abusing the debuff and status affects makes any teamwork on the opposing end a chore and extremely unnatractive.
/em salute to the devs for finally fixing this, I just hope it's as great as it sounds.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds to me like your SG just got trounced by a better SG with better tactics or bigger numbers.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, the only thing I really wanted to change in this mess was the ability for Repel Fields to effectively trap a player against geometry in Base Raids.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then why not add repel resistance to break frees? Seems like a more elegant solution.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm speaking from villain side, not hero side. I should have pointed that out.
Stalkers are already considered over-powered in PvP, and it's not exactly fair that only melee toons have/had a chance against stormers.
You show me a villain AT that can shoot a stormer down with a ranged attack in the ammount of time it takes for that villain to be singled out and targetted by multiple blasters/scrappers and trollers/defs with holds.
The damage done by that person wouldn't have been enough to kill the stormer before they are killed by the stormers teamates.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're actually hitting on a much bigger issue the devs still need to address, the disparity between unbuffed hero and villain damage output. In that case, it's not whether you were attacking a storm that makes the difference. In other words, show me a Villain AT that can routinely take down a tank or scrapper with ranged attacks?
No, not just one SG but rather a group of about 30-40 heroes tackling our teams of two (not entirely full) and a few other random villains not partied with us.
We had taken on team of heroes with larger numbers than ours before, and had stood our ground on equal footing, won, or yes, lost, but never like we lost when hurricane began to be abused.
Sometimes it simply seemed we were largely outnumbered because a stormer would swoop in and all of us would have no idea why nobody was dieing. In these situations the truth was, people were not dieing because we couldn't land a hit, not because they had endless numbers.
The -range having a lingering affect was largely abused, without the lingering affect we wouldn't have had these problems.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm speaking from villain side, not hero side. I should have pointed that out.
Stalkers are already considered over-powered in PvP, and it's not exactly fair that only melee toons have/had a chance against stormers.
You show me a villain AT that can shoot a stormer down with a ranged attack in the ammount of time it takes for that villain to be singled out and targetted by multiple blasters/scrappers and trollers/defs with holds.
The damage done by that person wouldn't have been enough to kill the stormer before they are killed by the stormers teamates.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're actually hitting on a much bigger issue the devs still need to address, the disparity between unbuffed hero and villain damage output. In that case, it's not whether you were attacking a storm that makes the difference. In other words, show me a Villain AT that can routinely take down a tank or scrapper with ranged attacks?
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the bigger issue is why should 1 villian be able to kill a hero faster then that teams 5 or 6ish players are able to coordinate to take out that villain.
How ridiculous a request is that?
How come I can't kill you faster then the 6 of you can kill me?
Is that a reason to nerf hurricane?
How many of the people whining for hurricane nerfs have their Aim's or Build-ups with 3 tohit buffs in them? How many of the people whining for hurricane nerfs thought the pinnacle of strategy was to all huddle together as closely as possible? How many of the people who wanted hurricane nerfed bothered to change anything when their initial attempt to combat hurricane failed?
The only problem I saw with the old hurricane was that the -range debuff from multiple hurricanes stacked.
[ QUOTE ]
No, not just one SG but rather a group of about 30-40 heroes tackling our teams of two (not entirely full) and a few other random villains not partied with us.
We had taken on team of heroes with larger numbers than ours before, and had stood our ground on equal footing, won, or yes, lost, but never like we lost when hurricane began to be abused.
Sometimes it simply seemed we were largely outnumbered because a stormer would swoop in and all of us would have no idea why nobody was dieing. In these situations the truth was, people were not dieing because we couldn't land a hit, not because they had endless numbers.
The -range having a lingering affect was largely abused, without the lingering affect we wouldn't have had these problems.
[/ QUOTE ]
if you guys stood all close enough together for a single hurricaner to nail you all in 1 swoop, you deserved to get that foot in your [censored].
let me get this straight, you guys beat the heroes despite being outnumbered and everything is cool, then when finally you start losing, you blame it on abusing powers? brilliant. I guess the EA stalkers that already stun me through hurricane or the focused spines crits that drop me before i can react are abuse too? what about that abuse in the game called blasters and empaths teaming up. give me a freakin break
if you are too retarded to know how to counter multiple stormers, then I'm sorry but you either need to practice or quit the game. I've faced teams with multiple stormers (we're talking 2-4)+ empath both as heroes and villains and we had no problem knocking the snot out of them. All it took was a little bit of tactics and not playing into their strength. like, not being retarded and huddling up with your teammates, that's just asking for it.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, the only thing I really wanted to change in this mess was the ability for Repel Fields to effectively trap a player against geometry in Base Raids.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then why not add repel resistance to break frees? Seems like a more elegant solution.
[/ QUOTE ]
There already is, it takes 4 small purples to walk through TK. I believe that Hurricane was the same, but probably is much less now. I wish they would have added a fast surpression timer for Repel rather than modifying the powers.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
[ QUOTE ]
As long as the Stomie was on the ground you could joust and stun them with Super Speed. The latest nerf has just made it easier.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, had a friend with a MA scrapper try that in the arena for 5 minutes or so (prior to the recent changes); he only got close enough to trigger a queued up attack a few times, and all but one whiffed because of the to hit debuff. If one of the successful jousts had happened to be on an attack where his buildup was going, maybe it would have hit, but thats still a long shot.
Is your superspeed slotted up or something?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
/em wonders when the devs are gonna realize that Force Bubble has the same "problem" that convinced em to zap Hurricane.
[/ QUOTE ]
The worst parts about getting debuffed by hurricane was the nasty to-hit debuff and its -range. The -tohit was easily countered at the higher levels(FA, AIM, BU, etc). The -range was the only form of mitigation against ranged toons for the Storm summoning set. It made only since that storm should be able to keep melee out when they are so vulnerable to everything else.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the only thing I really wanted to change in this mess was the ability for Repel Fields to effectively trap a player against geometry in Base Raids. I'm aware other powers have the same problem. I'll address those individually, though -- the same type of change made to Hurricane can be made, but for the most part, those powers have fewer aspects to them that Hurricane does. That makes getting them right considerably harder.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well if thats the case _Castle_, you may wanna consider putting a 30 second timer on Telekinesis so that cant perma-pin folks.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, please don't. Or just add a change to the entry to all PvP zones on the villain side where the contact basically says "Oh, your a Mind/ Dominator, sorry your not allowed in."
TK is one of the only things in a Mind/ Dominator's set that can affect a PvP battle to any real degree, then even with that he most likely needs help in achieving a kill.
Dominators don't need mitigation from their secondaries. Even if they did, there's ice (slows), psi (-recharge), and fire and elec (death).
-Talen_Lee commenting on Energy Assault's Utility
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As long as the Stomie was on the ground you could joust and stun them with Super Speed. The latest nerf has just made it easier.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, had a friend with a MA scrapper try that in the arena for 5 minutes or so (prior to the recent changes); he only got close enough to trigger a queued up attack a few times, and all but one whiffed because of the to hit debuff. If one of the successful jousts had happened to be on an attack where his buildup was going, maybe it would have hit, but thats still a long shot.
Is your superspeed slotted up or something?
[/ QUOTE ]
Did he have focused acc?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You'll be suprised what 1 web grenade can do.
[/ QUOTE ]
If we're bringing temporary powers into play (and given we're talking about a Stalker here, we are), there's nothing stopping the Stormer from having a breakfree Discipline running to stop the stun and a heal inspiration or two to counter the damage, making your efforts amount to nothing. Or for that matter just hyper phasing for a short bit while webbed, something I've found to be quite effective. And all this assumes the Stormer hadn't been constantly hugging you with the Hurricane in the first place, in which case your all ready low base accuracy web grenade isn't hitting, if you can even get in range for it. Web grenade ultimately amounts to a "hahaha, here I come!" for the Stormer, and if they're prepared and capable, that's not what you want.
As I said, the tactic is for less experienced, less competent Stormers, because good, well prepared ones aren't going to get shut down by it. Hurricane's best counters were always of the ranged variety, because although there WERE melee recourses, they were of the variety that good Stormers could avoid pretty effectively, and evidently the development team wasn't happy with that.
[/ QUOTE ]
*shrugs* I just wait till I see the empath hit their auras (Recovery and Healing) then TP in for the kill.
[/ QUOTE ]
At this point the tactic is getting pretty convoluted and WAY away from the sort of reliability that is required to really say, "Psh, just do this!" as you seemed to be saying.
I'm not implying or asserting that it's impossible to you as you described. I've done it, heck I've done it without teleport at all. BUT, it takes the Stormer actively screwing up for it to work, even if that screw up is standing in one place too long for auras (which you don't need to remain immobile long for at all), and that's assuming you're somehow in perfect awareness mode, completely ready to activate this pattern of powers the split second you see an Empath aura go off, to use your example. That's clearly not the sort of thing the Developers want to demand of their playerbase, as is evinced by changes like this.
You don't even need to joust them now. I just run up to them with auto follow and punch them in the face.
[ QUOTE ]
You know, you could joust and stun a Stormie even before the latest nerf...
[/ QUOTE ]
Not reliably.
[ QUOTE ]
As long as the Stomie was on the ground you could joust and stun them with Super Speed. The latest nerf has just made it easier.
[/ QUOTE ]
If they're on the ground and just sitting around, sure. That's a pretty big IF though, and that's part of the issue. Why do people keep acting like the Stormers are NPCs with no awareness or ability to use tactics of their own? They're not helpless, they're presumably intelligent players reacting to what's around them.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As long as the Stomie was on the ground you could joust and stun them with Super Speed. The latest nerf has just made it easier.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, had a friend with a MA scrapper try that in the arena for 5 minutes or so (prior to the recent changes); he only got close enough to trigger a queued up attack a few times, and all but one whiffed because of the to hit debuff. If one of the successful jousts had happened to be on an attack where his buildup was going, maybe it would have hit, but thats still a long shot.
Is your superspeed slotted up or something?
[/ QUOTE ]
Did he have focused acc?
[/ QUOTE ]
That's not something Villains get in any case. So this Scrapper was doing as well as a Brute or Stalker could hope to do in that situation, making his example pretty valid.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
/em wonders when the devs are gonna realize that Force Bubble has the same "problem" that convinced em to zap Hurricane.
[/ QUOTE ]
The worst parts about getting debuffed by hurricane was the nasty to-hit debuff and its -range. The -tohit was easily countered at the higher levels(FA, AIM, BU, etc). The -range was the only form of mitigation against ranged toons for the Storm summoning set. It made only since that storm should be able to keep melee out when they are so vulnerable to everything else.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the only thing I really wanted to change in this mess was the ability for Repel Fields to effectively trap a player against geometry in Base Raids. I'm aware other powers have the same problem. I'll address those individually, though -- the same type of change made to Hurricane can be made, but for the most part, those powers have fewer aspects to them that Hurricane does. That makes getting them right considerably harder.
[/ QUOTE ]
Call me crazy, but what is so bad about pinning people in a base raid using Hurricane or Repulsion bubbles?? In my opinion, if an AT doesn't have a resist against this type of power, it should be a bonafied tactic. Honestly, I'm not really clear on what the big problem is....If they can do it, so can we...
If someone is pinned against a wall, what stops that person from asking for help from his SG mates and having a blaster or spines scrapper beat the living hell out of the Stormer to free his teammates??
Why does EVERYTHING have to be nerfed? People are using a legitimate function of a power in a useful and tactical manner....I am just not convinced that the Developers needed to step in on this....or in fact many of the things that have been changed in issues past.
If using a bubbler or a stormer is a legit tactic in base defense, then the opposing side better have an answer for that before they raid.....
Like was mentioned before, Hurricane is already VASTLY underpowered at the high levels anyway...so, in all regards it seems a change was really not that warranted. Could not the player base have figured out a way to deal with this challenge themselves??
Did this problem REALLY need developer intervention?? On issues where there are exploits and it is entirely out of a player's control to deal with, I can see developers stepping in and making necessary changes. But, in this situation, it seems that players could've stepped up their game and worked out countertactics against this......just my opinion.
You know, you could joust and stun a Stormie even before the latest nerf...
As long as the Stomie was on the ground you could joust and stun them with Super Speed. The latest nerf has just made it easier.