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The reduction in Tohit Debuff enhancements was not supposed to happen until I7 when the new formula for determining probability to hit is released.
In other words, the debuff effectiveness gets a buff in I7.
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Nope. The to-hit calculations going in for I7 are for mob to-hit only. The to-hit calcs in PvP for players will remain like they are today.
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I haven't had time to get on test, but I was wondering what people are reporting about the changes to hurricane. Anyone have any stories?
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This is as good a place to put this, as any:
I checked in a few Hurricane changes today that QA is going to look at. In Theory, these changes should mean that for PvE, Hurricane acts Exactly as it did before the previous change, while in PvP, it should act exactly as it does currently. Hopefully this change will get a green light from QA -- I've spent quite a bit of time on it over the last few days. 
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Somebody needs to write a song for you. Something along the lines of "Jefferson and Liberty." 
~Gabriel
P.S. To those who don't know, that's an American Revolutionary War song.
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I hope Castle takes this into account and boosts the effectiveness of Hurricane to offset the nerf of to hit debuff enhancements...If Storms can't get in the thick of things, we are useless.
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The reduction in Tohit Debuff enhancements was not supposed to happen until I7 when the new formula for determining probability to hit is released. The old enhancement schedule made tohit debuffs ungodly with the new formula so they had to be toned down. The tohit debuff enhancers accidentally got changed too early.
In other words, the debuff effectiveness gets a buff in I7.
A substantial buff based on the numbers _Castle_ released earlier.
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unfortunately, i think (even with the i7 buff), hurricane still comes out slightly below where it used to be with the to-hit debuff against even-level opponants.
i didn't do the math, but someone did and posted it on the boards.
i payed special attention to that 'cuz of the level 50 vs. level 50 pvp game.
the net is a a slight decrease in the effectiveness of the debuff vs. even-conned opponants. it's slightly better when fighting an opponant of a higher level than yourself.
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remember guys...
storms have no self heal
storms have no mez protection
storms have no ranged defense
storms NOW HAVE extremely limited melee defense
they do not need this nerf.
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oh cry me a river. tell that to my bubbler. oh btw at least your storm has offensive capabilities. be thankful.
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remember guys...
storms have no self heal
storms have no mez protection
storms have no ranged defense
storms NOW HAVE extremely limited melee defense
they do not need this nerf.
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oh cry me a river. tell that to my bubbler. oh btw at least your storm has offensive capabilities. be thankful.
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bubblers don't have anything like ranged toggle droppers and perma DF to take opponents out of the fight indefinitely? Not to mention they get some decent mez protection. don't even start with me on bubblers not having anything
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remember guys...
storms have no self heal
storms have no mez protection
storms have no ranged defense
storms NOW HAVE extremely limited melee defense
they do not need this nerf.
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oh cry me a river. tell that to my bubbler. oh btw at least your storm has offensive capabilities. be thankful.
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how 'bout i cry you a river instead?
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remember guys...
storms have no self heal
storms have no mez protection
storms have no ranged defense
storms NOW HAVE extremely limited melee defense
they do not need this nerf.
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oh cry me a river. tell that to my bubbler. oh btw at least your storm has offensive capabilities. be thankful.
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bubblers don't have anything like ranged toggle droppers and perma DF to take opponents out of the fight indefinitely? Not to mention they get some decent mez protection. don't even start with me on bubblers not having anything
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yeah, bubblers don't get anything like PFF either.
so they don't have an oh $#!+ power like storms do.
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I hope Castle takes this into account and boosts the effectiveness of Hurricane to offset the nerf of to hit debuff enhancements...If Storms can't get in the thick of things, we are useless.
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The reduction in Tohit Debuff enhancements was not supposed to happen until I7 when the new formula for determining probability to hit is released. The old enhancement schedule made tohit debuffs ungodly with the new formula so they had to be toned down. The tohit debuff enhancers accidentally got changed too early.
In other words, the debuff effectiveness gets a buff in I7.
A substantial buff based on the numbers _Castle_ released earlier.
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The debuff is still going to be laughed at by FA and tohit buffs so thats isnt the problem storms are running into. Its the fact that the tohit debuff and -range dont affect the enemy in pvp before they've landed their melee attack because the repel ticker is so much slower now.
i'm not positive but the hurricane debuffs only get applied once the repel hits them right? If anyone knows how the debuff is applied that would answer alot of discrepencies. From the way it looks now though is that a melee toon can run into hurricane and get a hit in before the repel and debuffs hit them.
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remember guys...
storms have no self heal
storms have no mez protection
storms have no ranged defense
storms NOW HAVE extremely limited melee defense
they do not need this nerf.
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oh cry me a river. tell that to my bubbler. oh btw at least your storm has offensive capabilities. be thankful.
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Before the hurricane nerf...
Bubblers > Storm
Now, its not even a contest.
-- Currently Playing --
Dexter Labrynth (SS/FA Brute)
Former member of Tribute and Victory Reborn
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remember guys...
storms have no self heal
storms have no mez protection
storms have no ranged defense
storms NOW HAVE extremely limited melee defense
they do not need this nerf.
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oh cry me a river. tell that to my bubbler. oh btw at least your storm has offensive capabilities. be thankful.
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Hehe, my first thought is that your poor, poor bubbler probably nees a respec. PFF and mez protection?!?!??! Yeah, that must really suck.
Pre-nerf, this was the reality hurricane faced:
Complaint I cant get close enough to hit you with hurricane up Fact is:
-Ranged attacks could bypass hurricane (3/5 of all hero ATs had access to them: Blasters, Defs, and holds from Trollers not to mention Spines scrappers)
-Invulnerability powersets repel resist could bypass hurricane and walk right up to them to use melee attacks (2/5 of hero ATs had access: Tanks & Scraps)
Complaint tohit debuff is too strong, I always miss Fact is:
-The tohit debuff required the person with hurricane to get in your face and actually hit you, then keep brushing up against you to maintain this effect.
-tohit buffs, especially in the post 40 PvP game, from BU, Aim, FA were more than enough to counter any debuff from hurricane (Aim available to Blasters & Defs, BU available to Blasters, Tanks, Scraps, FA available to Tanks & Scraps 4/5 of all hero ATs had access to one or more of these not to mention other tohit buffs are also available like tactics and fortitude)
Complaint Im always being knocked down and pushed back by hurricane Fact is:
-Everyone has access to knockback/knockdown protection via Acrobatics from the Leaping power pool there are other powers that can knock you on your butt, and most serious PvPers try to fit Acrobatics into their build to prevent this.
-Knockback protection can be attained from other toons via powers like Increase Density from kinetics
*Heck, stormers were meant to make it difficult for melee toons, that was their specialty.
Ranged attacks, debuffs, melee with repel resist were their nemesis. Hurricane was a solid power that had enough means of bypassing/defeating already existing in the game this nerf wasnt needed, and it only make Defs and Trollers with Storm Summoning squishier, something the two squishiest hero ATs dont really need any more balancing with.
P.S. Since the balancing stick is lose yet again (i.e. the Nerf Bat of Luv), I think squishies should demand to be able to 2-3 shot all tanks and scraps! Of course Im j/k but then again if enough newbie PvPers cry foul for this who knows what these lack of clear direction and focus devs may do.
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Pre-nerf, this was the reality hurricane faced:
Complaint I cant get close enough to hit you with hurricane up Fact is:
-Ranged attacks could bypass hurricane (3/5 of all hero ATs had access to them: Blasters, Defs, and holds from Trollers not to mention Spines scrappers)
-Invulnerability powersets repel resist could bypass hurricane and walk right up to them to use melee attacks (2/5 of hero ATs had access: Tanks & Scraps)
Complaint tohit debuff is too strong, I always miss Fact is:
-The tohit debuff required the person with hurricane to get in your face and actually hit you, then keep brushing up against you to maintain this effect.
-tohit buffs, especially in the post 40 PvP game, from BU, Aim, FA were more than enough to counter any debuff from hurricane (Aim available to Blasters & Defs, BU available to Blasters, Tanks, Scraps, FA available to Tanks & Scraps 4/5 of all hero ATs had access to one or more of these not to mention other tohit buffs are also available like tactics and fortitude)
Complaint Im always being knocked down and pushed back by hurricane Fact is:
-Everyone has access to knockback/knockdown protection via Acrobatics from the Leaping power pool there are other powers that can knock you on your butt, and most serious PvPers try to fit Acrobatics into their build to prevent this.
-Knockback protection can be attained from other toons via powers like Increase Density from kinetics
*Heck, stormers were meant to make it difficult for melee toons, that was their specialty.
Ranged attacks, debuffs, melee with repel resist were their nemesis. Hurricane was a solid power that had enough means of bypassing/defeating already existing in the game this nerf wasnt needed, and it only make Defs and Trollers with Storm Summoning squishier, something the two squishiest hero ATs dont really need any more balancing with.
P.S. Since the balancing stick is lose yet again (i.e. the Nerf Bat of Luv), I think squishies should demand to be able to 2-3 shot all tanks and scraps! Of course Im j/k but then again if enough newbie PvPers cry foul for this who knows what these lack of clear direction and focus devs may do.
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QFT
Anyone who complained about a storm, NEVER played a storm. Yes, they were a pain for many a toons. But they also had a lot of weaknesses and definately suffered at the hands of some ATs.
-- Currently Playing --
Dexter Labrynth (SS/FA Brute)
Former member of Tribute and Victory Reborn
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/em wonders when the devs are gonna realize that Force Bubble has the same "problem" that convinced em to zap Hurricane.
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The worst parts about getting debuffed by hurricane was the nasty to-hit debuff and its -range. The -tohit was easily countered at the higher levels(FA, AIM, BU, etc). The -range was the only form of mitigation against ranged toons for the Storm summoning set. It made only since that storm should be able to keep melee out when they are so vulnerable to everything else.
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Actually, the only thing I really wanted to change in this mess was the ability for Repel Fields to effectively trap a player against geometry in Base Raids. I'm aware other powers have the same problem. I'll address those individually, though -- the same type of change made to Hurricane can be made, but for the most part, those powers have fewer aspects to them that Hurricane does. That makes getting them right considerably harder.
Because if all a power is good for is pinning... and you nerf that... it's no good.
Currently roleplaying, badgehunting, and laughing at the PvPers of CoX. lol, PvP.
Truedusk - Human Rogue
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From the way it looks now though is that a melee toon can run into hurricane and get a hit in before the repel and debuffs hit them.
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Currently, my Energy/Regeneration Stalker can leap into a Hurricane and get off a stun before having his accuracy debuffed, yes. The two seem to be inflicted on the same timer as you suspect.
Personally I don't think bringing Hurricane back down to the level of other comprable powers is a bad thing. It makes room for improvements to the other powers in the set. In the past, the literal ONLY thing that was at all intimidating about a Storm Summoner was Hurricane. Now that Hurricane has been lowered to a more reasonable level in comparrison to other abilities, I hope they'll make some of the other abilities in the set more potent.
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From the way it looks now though is that a melee toon can run into hurricane and get a hit in before the repel and debuffs hit them.
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Currently, my Energy/Regeneration Stalker can leap into a Hurricane and get off a stun before having his accuracy debuffed, yes. The two seem to be inflicted on the same timer as you suspect.
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You could do that before with Teleport. It's just that it took too much skill and forced people into taking a travel power just to counter it. I didn't even have stun... I'd just wait for the Hurricane user to get down to about 3/4 HP.
Hit Build Up.
TP next to them with ET queued.
gg dead Storm defender/controller.
Currently roleplaying, badgehunting, and laughing at the PvPers of CoX. lol, PvP.
Truedusk - Human Rogue
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You could do that before with Teleport.
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Only if the Storm Summoner was really, really bad. People who cite this tactic seem to assume the Storm Summoner is just standing there like an idiot; the good ones remain mobile sufficiently that no, you're not just going to casually teleport in and stun them reliably. You might get lucky on occasion, but if you were regularly stomping Storm Summoners with teleport --> melee stun, they weren't being very effective.
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It's just that it took too much skill ...
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And the Storm Summoner being a poor player, which again, you leave out. Against a poor Stormer yes, prepatch you could have your way with them using what you describe. Against a good one, they're going to be too mobile for the sort of precision tactics required. I'm not saying it was impossible, but it was clearly deemed sufficiently difficult against a reasonably competent Storm Summoner that it got weakened.
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Hit Build Up.
TP next to them with ET queued....
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And then watch it not go off because they weren't stupid enough to stand there like idiots the entire time.
I still have Terp ignored; I'll assume his response was insulting and instigatory as usual due to whatever grudge he seems to have against me, and thus understandably am not going to bother with it. Hope for the rest of your sakes that I'm wrong and it was something intelligent and insightful.
My only problem with all this, Castle, is sort of a general concern with the state of PvP now and in the future.
CoX PvP has seemed to me-- and it seemed to me the devs were implying it to be true in the past-- that CoX PvP is balanced around TEAM PvP, not Solo work. This seems to me to be just the latest in a line of changes that slowly chip away at that to make the game more fun for people that want to solo-pwn every one and everything.
Maybe it's just me, but I LIKED the fact that intially, there were ATs/powersets that could chew up another AT for breakfast, but stand no chance against another one. Stalkers, one-shotting, Hurricane-pinning... NONE of these are major problems for a decently-outfitted team working together. If a Caner pins you, You get a Corr or Blaster to blast the heck out of them, problem solved. If the caner's team provides better support than yours does... well, clearly the more organized, better PvP players have won. If you're solo... well, better rethink your strategy. Heck, Hurricane... there's lots of ways to deal with it, if you bother to team. Corrupters, masterminds, Dommies all have range, Dommies can just hold the Stormie and shut off the cane so you can beat the tar out of them, and /EA brutes, at least, and maybe /EA Stalkers can just wade right through the Repel to beat the heck out of them. ASes can be dealt with with Tactics and /SR scrappers and so on, massive damage can be turned by taunting tanks that can take it... point is, there's a lot of ways already existing to deal with these problems without taking the teeth out of sets.
Anyway. My concern here is that we're slowly moving away from the team-based nature of PvP balance that actually makes it FUN for a lot of us that don't usually enjoy PvP, and putting it back in the hands of the soloist "I pwn j00 all" mentalities. I worry that changes like this end up just frustrating people that take the sets, and they leave PvP, maybe at best roll a character "better suited" to PvP, and the experience slowly funnels down to a bunch of Stalkers and Brutes and a bunch of scrappers and maybe tanks beating on each other all day. What fun *that* would be... 
I'm not saying it's going to happen. But I think it could, with the direction PvP changes have been going.
PS: I am a soloist in PvP who occassionally teams. I find the teams the most fun, but I like the challenge of solo work. I expect to get my butt handed to me on a platter regularly. And yes, i do prefer it that way-- it gives me something to hone skills against. I'd rather find ways around Cane pinning than remove it, as it ultimately makes me a better player, and happier for the PvP experience.
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/em wonders when the devs are gonna realize that Force Bubble has the same "problem" that convinced em to zap Hurricane.
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The worst parts about getting debuffed by hurricane was the nasty to-hit debuff and its -range. The -tohit was easily countered at the higher levels(FA, AIM, BU, etc). The -range was the only form of mitigation against ranged toons for the Storm summoning set. It made only since that storm should be able to keep melee out when they are so vulnerable to everything else.
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Actually, the only thing I really wanted to change in this mess was the ability for Repel Fields to effectively trap a player against geometry in Base Raids. I'm aware other powers have the same problem. I'll address those individually, though -- the same type of change made to Hurricane can be made, but for the most part, those powers have fewer aspects to them that Hurricane does. That makes getting them right considerably harder.
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Well if thats the case _Castle_, you may wanna consider putting a 30 second timer on Telekinesis so that cant perma-pin folks.
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NONE of these are major problems for a decently-outfitted team working together.
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Definitely true; none of these things were problematic when you had a moderately well put together team using tactical coordination. The majority of the PvP that happens in the game, though, isn't the sort you describe, it's people in PvP zones in random groups (at least on Infinity). To that end, they seem to be catering to the majority and altering the powers that can be a bit severe for random pickups to deal with if they dont' get lucky with team composition. Hurricane, one shotting, these things were never really issues to solid teams, but they care about more than solid teams, and I don't think that's unwise of them, though I also don't necessarily think it's wise either, I'm pretty ambivalent. A lot of people just want to log in and have fun without being ground into a wall by a hurricane, slammed in one hit by an assassin strike, etc.
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Only if the Storm Summoner was really, really bad. People who cite this tactic seem to assume the Storm Summoner is just standing there like an idiot; the good ones remain mobile sufficiently that no, you're not just going to casually teleport in and stun them reliably.
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You'll be suprised what 1 web grenade can do.
Currently roleplaying, badgehunting, and laughing at the PvPers of CoX. lol, PvP.
Truedusk - Human Rogue
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You'll be suprised what 1 web grenade can do.
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If we're bringing temporary powers into play (and given we're talking about a Stalker here, we are), there's nothing stopping the Stormer from having a breakfree Discipline running to stop the stun and a heal inspiration or two to counter the damage, making your efforts amount to nothing. Or for that matter just hyper phasing for a short bit while webbed, something I've found to be quite effective. And all this assumes the Stormer hadn't been constantly hugging you with the Hurricane in the first place, in which case your all ready low base accuracy web grenade isn't hitting, if you can even get in range for it. Web grenade ultimately amounts to a "hahaha, here I come!" for the Stormer, and if they're prepared and capable, that's not what you want.
As I said, the tactic is for less experienced, less competent Stormers, because good, well prepared ones aren't going to get shut down by it. Hurricane's best counters were always of the ranged variety, because although there WERE melee recourses, they were of the variety that good Stormers could avoid pretty effectively, and evidently the development team wasn't happy with that.
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NONE of these are major problems for a decently-outfitted team working together.
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Definitely true; none of these things were problematic when you had a moderately well put together team using tactical coordination. The majority of the PvP that happens in the game, though, isn't the sort you describe, it's people in PvP zones in random groups (at least on Infinity). To that end, they seem to be catering to the majority and altering the powers that can be a bit severe for random pickups to deal with if they dont' get lucky with team composition. Hurricane, one shotting, these things were never really issues to solid teams, but they care about more than solid teams, and I don't think that's unwise of them, though I also don't necessarily think it's wise either, I'm pretty ambivalent. A lot of people just want to log in and have fun without being ground into a wall by a hurricane, slammed in one hit by an assassin strike, etc.
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I think that's reasonable, but I also think it's reasonable to say that if this is your intention, you need too-- and SHOULD need to-- be at least a little smart about it. Pick your targets, keep moving, etc, etc. You won't always be able to avoid everything, but that's the way it is. I've played my very un-PvP-built Fire blaster and Fire/Kin corr in SC, and they don't do that well, but I find if I can keep moving, I don't get ased much, and as long as I'm picking and choosing who i go after, and fire at canes from range, kite the scrappers, etc I manage to have fun.
Granted, on Virtue, we see a lot more team-based PvP, a lot more of what i think the Devs actually had in mind initially. And sure, we're one server and I know that. But it'd be a shame to lose it anyway. It'd be keen if we could somehow instead get incentives beyond "better experience" to promote team PvP play.
Another point I neglected in my first post, is that the Call is a relatively low-level zone, and the builds thee are immature, whether by natural level or EX/MAing. I weep for the nerfed 'cane when it hits Warburg where the really heavy melee damage comes into play, or worse, when Recluse's Victory hits, where even *before* the nerfage, most everyone worth their salt'll have a couple decent ranged attacks from patron pools, and maybe a hold or a pet to help them out. it'd be tough without this change, just watching for that many more ranged attackers, but toss in having to worry about all the melee in the zone at the same time, I think is going to make the prospect an exercise in pain. Especially for defenders. I'd be a lot more optimistic if this change could be somehow restricted to the zone itself, I suppose. As it stands, I'm kind of expecting a lot of stormies to just get frustrated. Pinning aside, Hurricane was a lot of safety for Stormies trying to support a team, and it's going to be somewhat trivial at this point, I think, though I need to get my current stormie up-level enough to give it a serious testrun still, so I can't swear to it. But if it's bad enough that a stormie can, say, catch all the squishie villians in an AOE hold for the team, die, and that's the extent of their practical support ability? Ouch. We'll see, I guess.
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Granted, on Virtue, we see a lot more team-based PvP, a lot more of what i think the Devs actually had in mind initially. And sure, we're one server and I know that. But it'd be a shame to lose it anyway. It'd be keen if we could somehow instead get incentives beyond "better experience" to promote team PvP play.
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I empathize with your view completely.
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Another point I neglected in my first post, is that the Call is a relatively low-level zone, and the builds thee are immature, whether by natural level or EX/MAing. I weep for the nerfed 'cane when it hits Warburg where the really heavy melee damage comes into play, or worse, when Recluse's Victory hits, where even *before* the nerfage, most everyone worth their salt'll have a couple decent ranged attacks from patron pools, and maybe a hold or a pet to help them out.
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This is a good point, and actually one of the motivators behind me wanting Hurricane to be a bit weaker and the other powers in the set to be strengthened for a less "eggs in one basket" feel. When almost everyone DOES have ranged attacks, Hurricane -- even the old one -- not going to be as much an advantage. It would be much better for Stormers to have a more varied set of tools that were actually ALL something I'd dread seeing on the battlefield to some extent when that happens. Tornado, Snowstorm, Freezing Rain, none of these things particularly bother me, no matter what type of character I'm playing. They should, and Hurricane taking a step down in terms of power leaves room for them to take a step up I think, hopefully for the betterment of the set in PvP and maybe even PvE (hopefully in spite of the fact that it's being powered up in PvE again).
I feel this nerf is a bit excessive. With my blaster I can hit BU or AIM and run up to the storm user and kill them with just melee attacks. No range is needed anymore. Sure the repel might have been too good but now its not even useful.
I know I play what you people call a fotm blaster. But If I can take out a storm with just melee attacks then what prevents any other melee based character (scrapper, tank, stalker, brute) from doing the same?
The only thing it has going for it is the tohit debuff. And even that got nerfed with the enhancement change. I'd rather have a forcefield on my side then a storm in most situations.