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Scrappers out damage blasters in melee. Blasters AT mod is 1, while scrappers is 1.125. Scrappers also get unresistable criticals of 2x damage 5% of the time, which can be compared to Blasters 33% unresistable damage.
Energy Melee's Stuns coupled with toggle dropping pretty much make the damage a secondary effect. While the blasters (who have little or no mez protections) are used to functioning with break frees active, most scrappers are not, as they rely on their inherent protection powers to keep them safe.
In other words, despite your toggle powers protections, pretend you don't have them and prepare based on that -- because those protections will be knocked down at some point.
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proof that the devs know jack about pvp balance in their own game.
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rofl
Currently roleplaying, badgehunting, and laughing at the PvPers of CoX. lol, PvP.
Truedusk - Human Rogue
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... I have NO WAY to kill them, period, until it ends. My damage is simply not high enough to overcome their hp, and after BU+aim wear off, it's a totaly joke. Against an enemy with a click defense power, again, I'm screwed....
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unless you had conserve power and boost range
This thread really goes to show you the impact of pvp noobs in coh. It's a sad day, indeed, when castle gives basic pvp advice embedded within a response and doomsayers hop on thinking it's a nerf. That could be why you under-perform on the field, you refuse to learn.
After Lucas gets finished with the blappers, I'd be willing to go only-melee with any blapper in teh game with my tank.
As long as toggle dropping is reduced to where there is a chance that even with a successful hit from a toggle dropping power that there is a chance that no toggles will drop and an even slimmer chance that multiple toggles will drop I will be happy. Nothing should be 100%.
I don't believe that blappers really fear going into melee at all because all I see is blappers charging at any and all visible targets with bonesmasher in pvp. That is not what someonewho is scared to do something would do.
I also do not think the same attack that drops your mez protection should be able to stun you in the same hit. They should at least have to hit you with another hit to do that.
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Aid Self gives you resistance to Disorient. And Health resists Sleep. Although resists arent protection.
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QFT
The Kronos has a hold n00b!
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I also do not think the same attack that drops your mez protection should be able to stun you in the same hit. They should at least have to hit you with another hit to do that.
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/agree and post count padding.
The Kronos has a hold n00b!
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Since PvP is balanced around teams I don't understand this statement. A Blapper only needs to pop Break Frees proactively if he doesn't have decent buffing. The problem is that a Blapper buffed up has only slightly lower safety and greater killing power than a Scrapper with the same buffs.
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Seems to me that you answered your own question. PVP is team based. With no team blasters have to only rely on breakfrees and other insperations to remain operative. With a team blasters can get some mezz protection, some bubbles, some resistance shields etc. But also keep in mind that though you say that these all allow blasters to work with greater protection then a scrapper with more killing power, that a scrapper also has access to these team buffs when on a team.
A scrapper can enhance his mezz protection with team buffs, he can boost his defense with team buffs, he can boost his resistances with team buffs, his healing his end recovery etc.
So in the big picture in these instances a scrapper playing from the same level of a blaster with the same buffs, same team essentially will always be stronger then a blaster so blasters get the stronger damage for the lack of the buffing to themselves. (for example if bubbles offered 30 percent def buff to both ATs, a SR scrapper gets his inherent power pools defense but adds that bubble to the top of it. A blaster has no defense based powers and only recieves the bubbles buff.) Adding the same buff to nothing is always going to be less then adding the same buff to something.
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As long as toggle dropping is reduced to where there is a chance that even with a successful hit from a toggle dropping power that there is a chance that no toggles will drop and an even slimmer chance that multiple toggles will drop I will be happy. Nothing should be 100%.
I don't believe that blappers really fear going into melee at all because all I see is blappers charging at any and all visible targets with bonesmasher in pvp. That is not what someonewho is scared to do something would do.
I also do not think the same attack that drops your mez protection should be able to stun you in the same hit. They should at least have to hit you with another hit to do that.
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Since toggle dropping is gong to be toned down by a large margin, it would be nice if instead of it droping random toggles it specifically targets the opponents mez protection, then shields, then debuff powers, then travel powers in that order.
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I'm all for it, it would'nt really diminish an Ice/EM's ability, just make it harder to play. People seem to forget the reason that /EM is so good is conserver power and boost range, not bone smasher and total focus.
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People forget? No, it's just not true. Bonesmasher is the premier power from the Energy Manipulation set for PvP. Boost range is completely optional. A strong PvP build doesn't rely on range, because blasters don't do enough damage at range to kill anyone before they die. They survive on burst damage, so in PvP, they have to make heavy use of their secondary sets to be very strong. I'm sure that ranged blasters *can* be effective against certain enemies, but the universally dangerous blaster relies on high burst damage and toggle dropping.
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lol, good one. But ice blasts have higher DPS than energy melee. Fighting a decent team with good support, you won't kill someone in two shots like you will in pvp zones. The DPS is what matters. Now I'll grant you that the melee attacks are good at taking down tanks, but anything else can be taken down quicker with Ice Blasts because you can just sit in one spot and spam attacks.
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cept the regin
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I'm all for it, it would'nt really diminish an Ice/EM's ability, just make it harder to play. People seem to forget the reason that /EM is so good is conserver power and boost range, not bone smasher and total focus.
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People forget? No, it's just not true. Bonesmasher is the premier power from the Energy Manipulation set for PvP. Boost range is completely optional. A strong PvP build doesn't rely on range, because blasters don't do enough damage at range to kill anyone before they die. They survive on burst damage, so in PvP, they have to make heavy use of their secondary sets to be very strong. I'm sure that ranged blasters *can* be effective against certain enemies, but the universally dangerous blaster relies on high burst damage and toggle dropping.
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lol, good one. But ice blasts have higher DPS than energy melee. Fighting a decent team with good support, you won't kill someone in two shots like you will in pvp zones. The DPS is what matters. Now I'll grant you that the melee attacks are good at taking down tanks, but anything else can be taken down quicker with Ice Blasts because you can just sit in one spot and spam attacks. More attacks hit quicker than if you were chasing someone with /EM. I'm just gonna say you have to trust me in that the most succesful Ice/EMs rely mostly on Ice blasts, which is made effective through the use of CP and Boost Range.
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Aye.
Noob tip of the day: when u get dropped like a bad habit....check ur combat log. If it's by an Ice Blaster....you'll see all the Ice blasts that hit ya. Boost Range is the heat. 
The problem with this is that the practical difference is very small. A scrapper effectively gains less from the same buffs than a Blaster does. Certainly the Scrapper is better protected, but he is still much less effective at killing than the Blaster is. As long as the Blaster can be buffed enough to stay survivable, who won't pick him? It doesn't matter if a Scrapper has 70% resists if 40% resists will give the healers enough time to keep a Blaster alive.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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Extended cat n' mouse or slugfest fights are fun when they happen 1v1, but it's just not practical to support that in the team game. PvP rewards would have to be rebalanced around the idea that hardly anyone would ever die. For one thing, healing and buffing would have to get nerfed through the floor or nobody would ever die. Can you imagine a team of AVs fighting a team of AVs, each with pocket empaths healing them to full on every hit? It'd be worse than watching a Night Widow on Night Widow gladiator fight.
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I have to agree with most that the thing that I hate about PvP is that burst damage is too much. It doesn't feel super heroish/villainish to be taken down in two or three hits. If healing had to be toned down so that, we could get more super hero/villain type fights then so be it.
Not to jump in on the Conversation late..but i never had a problem with Blasters doing more Damage then a scrapper in Melee..my problem has always been that their Accuracy should not be as good in melee range.
Basically they are going into the Scrapper or tanks wheelhouse and they should not be as well trained in hand to hand combat as people who spend their whole lives working on that sorta thing.
I dont mind if when they hit me it hurts like all hell...i just dont want them to be able to hit me as often as i can hit them when going toe to toe
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As long as toggle dropping is reduced to where there is a chance that even with a successful hit from a toggle dropping power that there is a chance that no toggles will drop and an even slimmer chance that multiple toggles will drop I will be happy. Nothing should be 100%.
I don't believe that blappers really fear going into melee at all because all I see is blappers charging at any and all visible targets with bonesmasher in pvp. That is not what someonewho is scared to do something would do.
I also do not think the same attack that drops your mez protection should be able to stun you in the same hit. They should at least have to hit you with another hit to do that.
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Since toggle dropping is gong to be toned down by a large margin, it would be nice if instead of it droping random toggles it specifically targets the opponents mez protection, then shields, then debuff powers, then travel powers in that order.
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thats a buff not a debuff to toggle dropping....how about you blappers just fight like the rest of us
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Scrappers out damage blasters in melee. Blasters AT mod is 1, while scrappers is 1.125. Scrappers also get unresistable criticals of 2x damage 5% of the time, which can be compared to Blasters 33% unresistable damage.
Energy Melee's Stuns coupled with toggle dropping pretty much make the damage a secondary effect. While the blasters (who have little or no mez protections) are used to functioning with break frees active, most scrappers are not, as they rely on their inherent protection powers to keep them safe.
In other words, despite your toggle powers protections, pretend you don't have them and prepare based on that -- because those protections will be knocked down at some point.
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I do want to point out there here is a red name not only advocating the use of inspirations in pvp but also suggesting that it's an intended mechanic to use them in pvp.
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As long as toggle dropping is reduced to where there is a chance that even with a successful hit from a toggle dropping power that there is a chance that no toggles will drop and an even slimmer chance that multiple toggles will drop I will be happy. Nothing should be 100%.
I don't believe that blappers really fear going into melee at all because all I see is blappers charging at any and all visible targets with bonesmasher in pvp. That is not what someonewho is scared to do something would do.
I also do not think the same attack that drops your mez protection should be able to stun you in the same hit. They should at least have to hit you with another hit to do that.
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Since toggle dropping is gong to be toned down by a large margin, it would be nice if instead of it droping random toggles it specifically targets the opponents mez protection, then shields, then debuff powers, then travel powers in that order.
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thats a buff not a debuff to toggle dropping....how about you blappers just fight like the rest of us
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Actually Nate, that is the thing most melee are having trouble with. Blaster are fighting like a melee AT, and doing a better job of it.
Toggle Dropping is going to be toned down. I'll have to see "how" toned down before forming an opinion on whether it is enough.
Some ideas concerning toggle dropping that I have heard and thought had merit.
1) Mez toggles have a lesser chance of dropping.
2) Toggles aren't dropped, they are instead surpressed for say 5-10 seconds, then start working again on their own.
And inspirations are supposed to be used to close holes in your particular AT's build to perform well in both PvE and PvE. I play my tanker as if he was a blaster with no ranged attacks. I use inspirations and avoid alphas whenever possible then hit em when I am at my strongest.
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As long as toggle dropping is reduced to where there is a chance that even with a successful hit from a toggle dropping power that there is a chance that no toggles will drop and an even slimmer chance that multiple toggles will drop I will be happy. Nothing should be 100%.
I don't believe that blappers really fear going into melee at all because all I see is blappers charging at any and all visible targets with bonesmasher in pvp. That is not what someonewho is scared to do something would do.
I also do not think the same attack that drops your mez protection should be able to stun you in the same hit. They should at least have to hit you with another hit to do that.
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Since toggle dropping is gong to be toned down by a large margin, it would be nice if instead of it droping random toggles it specifically targets the opponents mez protection, then shields, then debuff powers, then travel powers in that order.
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thats a buff not a debuff to toggle dropping....how about you blappers just fight like the rest of us
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toggle dropping is getting nerfed by a large margin according to castle numbers to be announced, thats a huge debuff. targetting specific toggles ie like mez protection etc with the lower nerfed percentage in I7 is only a miniscule buff. so overall it's a debuff...... sure I would like to fight like you with your mez protection and defences sign me up please.
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As long as toggle dropping is reduced to where there is a chance that even with a successful hit from a toggle dropping power that there is a chance that no toggles will drop and an even slimmer chance that multiple toggles will drop I will be happy. Nothing should be 100%.
I don't believe that blappers really fear going into melee at all because all I see is blappers charging at any and all visible targets with bonesmasher in pvp. That is not what someonewho is scared to do something would do.
I also do not think the same attack that drops your mez protection should be able to stun you in the same hit. They should at least have to hit you with another hit to do that.
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Since toggle dropping is gong to be toned down by a large margin, it would be nice if instead of it droping random toggles it specifically targets the opponents mez protection, then shields, then debuff powers, then travel powers in that order.
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thats a buff not a debuff to toggle dropping....how about you blappers just fight like the rest of us
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Actually Nate, that is the thing most melee are having trouble with. Blaster are fighting like a melee AT, and doing a better job of it.
Toggle Dropping is going to be toned down. I'll have to see "how" toned down before forming an opinion on whether it is enough.
Some ideas concerning toggle dropping that I have heard and thought had merit.
1) Mez toggles have a lesser chance of dropping.
2) Toggles aren't dropped, they are instead surpressed for say 5-10 seconds, then start working again on their own.
And inspirations are supposed to be used to close holes in your particular AT's build to perform well in both PvE and PvE. I play my tanker as if he was a blaster with no ranged attacks. I use inspirations and avoid alphas whenever possible then hit em when I am at my strongest.
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By fighting like the rest of us I didn't mean meleeing like some toons are meant to I mean having to attack at opportune times, using teams and wearing opponents down. You play a tanker so you know what I mean by that.
If you drop their mez protection automatically then you would always follow up with the stun and all the toggles will drop. How would that tone down toggle dropping? If anything that would make toggle dropping more of a problem.
I think that running in dropping their defenses and using your heaviest attacks is contrary to what would be the most fun pvp experience. Most of the ATs do not function like that with the exception of stalkers and blasters which are usually the ATs that people gripe about.
If you notice they are making a big move to make stalkers team. I think overall thats a good thing.
and I agree with you about inspirations.
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Scrappers out damage blasters in melee. Blasters AT mod is 1, while scrappers is 1.125. Scrappers also get unresistable criticals of 2x damage 5% of the time, which can be compared to Blasters 33% unresistable damage.
Energy Melee's Stuns coupled with toggle dropping pretty much make the damage a secondary effect. While the blasters (who have little or no mez protections) are used to functioning with break frees active, most scrappers are not, as they rely on their inherent protection powers to keep them safe.
In other words, despite your toggle powers protections, pretend you don't have them and prepare based on that -- because those protections will be knocked down at some point.
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I do want to point out there here is a red name not only advocating the use of inspirations in pvp but also suggesting that it's an intended mechanic to use them in pvp.
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Not only that, but it's a red name confirming the fact that blaster secondaries (that drop toggles) in thier current functionality: trivialize melee defensive powers
They not only trivialize melee defenses with one attack but these attacks have an unresistable damage component *AND* disorient you at the same time.
Id sure like to have 1 attack that makes me a one man group in a group oriented pvp game.
Freeze Ray + BU + Aim + Bone Smasher = immobilized, disoriented opponent at 1/2 health
2-3 attacks that basically allow you to status lock and defeat an opponent in about 8 seconds.
I fight scrappers all the time and the fight's arent fast - they are usually slow attrition battles.
On paper they may out-damage blasters but in actual game-play scenarios ive never, ever been 2-3 shotted by a scrapper - not even a BS scrapper on a BU+crit.
And why is that?
Because scrappers dont have a broken, overpowered game mechanic at thier disposal.
Co* PvP is already a status-jack fest where damage output is a secondary objective to rendering your opponent unable to act and where BF's will keep you alive longer than a Respites.
Nerfing de-toggles is a good step in the right direction for PvP in Co* - simply because imho - the pvp couldnt be farther away from comic book encounters.
Less status jacking, more fighting pls.
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defiance makes blasters stronger than scrappers.
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Bwahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahaahahhahaha
@TheBro
solo pvp?
Cooler than every single owl EVER.
hahahahahahahahahahahaha
seriously tho, when it all comes down to it, Stalkers can kill us both with relative to massive ease
@TheBro
solo pvp?
Cooler than every single owl EVER.
BlackScourge:
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The rest of the time [Blasters']ll run for the hills in PFF like a Mexican jumping bean on crack. This applies to arena and pvp zones.
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Which PvP zone are you in that Blasters have access to Personal Force Field? At minimum, a Blaster has to be level 41 to get that power. Currently, the highest-level PvP zone auto-levels everyone to 38.
You do not help your case when you say things that can be proven to be wrong, especially proven this easily and proven to be this wrong. One lie destroys your credibility--it makes me, as a reader, suspect every other thing you say.
It's like the repeated Meleer Myth of the Bone Smasher PvP One-Shot. I disprove that one at least once every two weeks, and yet it persists. There's a paucity of truth-telling about blappers by meleers. It would behoove you guys to tell the truth to make your case, rather than exaggerate, deceive, and outright lie.
40062: The World's Worst PUG
84008: Jenkins's Guide to Super-Villainy
230187: The Hero of Kings Row
No H8 - 08.04.10
@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
The only 'bother' about blapper melees is that as an AT, their melee attack (a secondary) is more feared and in some ways much more effective than the melee attacks of many Brute and Scrapper AT's. Ye olde Manual describes Blasters as the best at damage, not the best at toggle dropping, and certainly they should be well behind Brutes in melee ('the best there is in a straight melee fight').
We've seen what happened in the old days when some AT's secondaries were better that some AT's primaries in a direct comparison. It will happen again.
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BlackScourge:
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The rest of the time [Blasters']ll run for the hills in PFF like a Mexican jumping bean on crack. This applies to arena and pvp zones.
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Which PvP zone are you in that Blasters have access to Personal Force Field? At minimum, a Blaster has to be level 41 to get that power. Currently, the highest-level PvP zone auto-levels everyone to 38.
You do not help your case when you say things that can be proven to be wrong, especially proven this easily and proven to be this wrong. One lie destroys your credibility--it makes me, as a reader, suspect every other thing you say.
It's like the repeated Meleer Myth of the Bone Smasher PvP One-Shot. I disprove that one at least once every two weeks, and yet it persists. There's a paucity of truth-telling about blappers by meleers. It would behoove you guys to tell the truth to make your case, rather than exaggerate, deceive, and outright lie.
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Um yeah...your quoting one line out of what I was saying in that post. I know PFF isnt available til Epics. The point I was making was the tactic, in itself, attacking only when Aim and BU are up, and then doing whatever it takes to avoid the fight. Dont take things so literal.
And dont call me a liar b/c you personally have a hard time grasping a concept. And it doesnt help your credibility when your take quotes out of context and try to twist them on the poster.
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The only 'bother' about blapper melees is that as an AT, their melee attack (a secondary) is more feared and in some ways much more effective than the melee attacks of many Brute and Scrapper AT's. Ye olde Manual describes Blasters as the best at damage, not the best at toggle dropping, and certainly they should be well behind Brutes in melee ('the best there is in a straight melee fight').
We've seen what happened in the old days when some AT's secondaries were better that some AT's primaries in a direct comparison. It will happen again.
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Ultimately, that is what the problem is here.
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I'm all for it, it would'nt really diminish an Ice/EM's ability, just make it harder to play. People seem to forget the reason that /EM is so good is conserver power and boost range, not bone smasher and total focus.
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People forget? No, it's just not true. Bonesmasher is the premier power from the Energy Manipulation set for PvP. Boost range is completely optional. A strong PvP build doesn't rely on range, because blasters don't do enough damage at range to kill anyone before they die. They survive on burst damage, so in PvP, they have to make heavy use of their secondary sets to be very strong. I'm sure that ranged blasters *can* be effective against certain enemies, but the universally dangerous blaster relies on high burst damage and toggle dropping.
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lol, good one. But ice blasts have higher DPS than energy melee. Fighting a decent team with good support, you won't kill someone in two shots like you will in pvp zones. The DPS is what matters. Now I'll grant you that the melee attacks are good at taking down tanks, but anything else can be taken down quicker with Ice Blasts because you can just sit in one spot and spam attacks. More attacks hit quicker than if you were chasing someone with /EM. I'm just gonna say you have to trust me in that the most succesful Ice/EMs rely mostly on Ice blasts, which is made effective through the use of CP and Boost Range.