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Scrappers out damage blasters in melee. Blasters AT mod is 1, while scrappers is 1.125. Scrappers also get unresistable criticals of 2x damage 5% of the time, which can be compared to Blasters 33% unresistable damage.
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I question this assertion.
While scrappers base melee damage may be higher, blasters' attacks have higher BIs, are less resisted, and often seem to have quicker animations. The scrapper critical basically amounts to 5% unresistable damage, which does not compare favorably with blasters' 33% unresistable damage.
In answer to the OP: yes, I would feel better if scrappers were clearly superior to blasters in melee. From a purely balance perspective, blasters should never have an advantage, no matter how short term, over a scrapper, tanker, or brute, in melee range.
(Note that this isn't the same as saying that they shouldn't be able to defeat a scrapper, tanker, or brute.)
Now, if blaster melee damage gets toned down, I would definitely favor buffing them in some other area to compensate -- perhaps a 15% boost to range damage, combined with an increased likelihood of the status effect being applied with their melee attacks.
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I also question Castle's claim that blasters do not outdamage scrappers in melee. Besides the fact that blaster melee attacks generally have a shorter animation time and a non-S/L component, being in melee does not preclude a blaster from using his ranged attacks, which in combination with the available melee attacks actually give the blaster a better selection of high-damage attacks.
Scrappers attacks do 1.125 (BI) * 1.05 (incl crits) = 118.125% of blaster attacks of equal BI, with 1.125 (BI) * .05 (crits) = 5.625% of said damage being unresistible.
Pretty much all scrapper attacks with > 6 SBI or 7 BBI (scrapper BI and blaster BI, respectively) take at least 2 seconds to animate. The Katana attacks are around 2.3-2.4, while the rest (Shadow Maul, Ripper, Eagle's Claw, and the BS attacks) are much closer to 3 seconds. Compare these to the sub-2-second activation time most blaster melee attacks have. Both Bonesmasher and Havoc Punch (7.22 BBI) do damage comparable to Golden Dragonfly, Eagle's Claw (6.33 * 1.18125 = 7.48 BBI)
I'm aware that the blaster extreme-damage attacks (Total Focus & Thunder Strike) have ~3-second activation times, but they also have higher BBI than even Headsplitter (7.33 * 1.18125 = 8.66 BBI).
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This is the one part that is confusing me about _Castle_'s post. Why even give us toggles if we should pretend that we dont have them. Is that the point of being a melee toon is that you have a status protection toggle since you spend most of your time in melee range.
Yes Yes. i understande that toggles will be dropped at some point. I am not talking about that. Since we are melee toons shouldnt those toggles at least give us a little help at least thinking they are providing some kind of protecton instead of us pretending it does?
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Thats my biggest problem. With toggle drops, mezzes that smack ya after the toggle is dropped, and all that unresisted dmg, Scrappers risk MORE than Blasters going into melee. Whats the point in having 2ndry powers if in one cycle of attacks they are all ignored? Meanwhile, blasters secondaies are more effective then our primary set. That math look right?
So heres the deal, blaster vs scrapper:
*Blaster ignores most of a scrappers defensive power thru unreisted dmg, toggle drops, and mezzes that land after toggle drops, making Scrapper 2ndaries "paper shields", and mostly ineffective during fighting.
*Blasters do more burst dmg and DPS than scrappers in melee, making our melee inferior to theirs
* Blasters have range attacks so they can kite us if they chose to, we scrappers have limited ranged attack if any at all
I really hope toggle dropping is reduced to what scrapper criticals are.....5%. My Spines/DA scrapper avoids getting into melee with EM and Electric like the plauge. I have the option to with my ranged attacks but I hate to think how much worse it would be if I was pure melee. Nobody sees something wrong with this picture?
Ah yes. I remember the days when scrappers were melee and blaster were ranged. Unfortunately, those are long ago.
Scrapper were forced into becoming blasters and blasters became blappers. Why did this happen?
Scrapper kept getting rocked by blappers in pvp.
And you know the real issue hear is that its mainly the Energy and Electric melee blaster that are causing this problem. So folks will say, "well what about the rest of use that dont play those sets, its not fair to the rest of us if blasters get nerfed?"
Well 99% of the time the only 2ndry sets I see in any pvp format are EM and Electric. So if everybody is playing them, then the sets are broken.
Wait, you want them to give toggle dropping a 5% change AND lower blaster melee damage?
Did you play on I4 arena when it was on test? Blasters were getting slayed back then by scrappers.
Unresistable damage, does that matter to a regen scrapper?
Blasters do take more risk being in melee, hell BS your scrapper has two toggles that as soon as lucas blaster gets into melee with he would be mezzed (feared or stunned) so just to geting near the scrapper the blaster has to have a break free running.
Just like what castle is saying too many scrapper wait til they are stunned to hit a bf while blasters use them before they fight. Lucas scrapper has NEVER lost to a blaster. Ever.
The Kronos has a hold n00b!
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Scrappers out damage blasters in melee. Blasters AT mod is 1, while scrappers is 1.125. Scrappers also get unresistable criticals of 2x damage 5% of the time, which can be compared to Blasters 33% unresistable damage.
Energy Melee's Stuns coupled with toggle dropping pretty much make the damage a secondary effect. While the blasters (who have little or no mez protections) are used to functioning with break frees active, most scrappers are not, as they rely on their inherent protection powers to keep them safe.
In other words, despite your toggle powers protections, pretend you don't have them and prepare based on that -- because those protections will be knocked down at some point.
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So in other words, if we want to play a melee character in PvP, play a blaster. Because Brutes/Tankers/Scrappers/Stalkers secondaries can be completely negated with one attack, and we should suck it up and be ready for that, right?
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Well 99% of the time the only 2ndry sets I see in any pvp format are EM and Electric. So if everybody is playing them, then the sets are broken.
[/ QUOTE ] Actually, according to comments from the devs, those are the secondaries that are preforming as intended. It's the rest of the sets that have issues. Well, either that or it's just a general perception that the other secondaries aren't as good. One of the two.
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
Of course, this would all be a moot point if PvP weren't predicated and designed around 5-second battles.
If they'd go and do a global damage nerf against PvP targets, we'd get knock-down, drag-out fights that ... wow ... would feel comic-y.
Then, the scrappers could shut up, because their high DPS would matter more than the burst that a blaster's able to do with three powers. Of course, you'd have to let the blasters kite in such a situation, too, so by this time you're not really talking about City of Heroes/Villains anymore.
It'd sure be nice if a PvP one-on-one was more like an elite boss or AV battle than a lieutenant one.
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A blaster's melee damage was lower than a scrappers, for the most part? So Blapper's dont out scrap, scrappers.
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You ?
Jealous maybe ?
Na just looking for overall balance, that's all.....
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had i had blaster hp's i would have won im sure.
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Bhahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!
That's going in my sig 
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Wait, you want them to give toggle dropping a 5% change AND lower blaster melee damage
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Only for their secondaries, yes I would like that.
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Unresistable damage, does that matter to a regen scrapper?
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Only to Resilence and possibly Tough, if they have if. I dont wanna get into a regen issue, I'm dealing with this right now. But it affects every other dmg resistance set in the game.
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Blasters do take more risk being in melee, hell BS your scrapper has two toggles that as soon as lucas blaster gets into melee with he would be mezzed (feared or stunned) so just to geting near the scrapper the blaster has to have a break free running.
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Not my scrapper, mezzes are a joke on pvp unless you toggle drop mezz protection or your a 'troller/Dom. I didnt bother with OG or CoF specifically b/c of toggle droppers. And that BF does help me reset all my toggles faster. While im resetting toggles, running for my life, I'm having a blaster have a field day with me, with their UBAR burst dmg, lol.
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Lucas scrapper has NEVER lost to a blaster. Ever.
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I know a few Blasters who would love to contest that statement, interested?
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Coupla points.
1) 5% in PvP? So other players count as minions for purposes of determining criticals?
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Hold on for a cottton picking minute.
I aint no stinking MINION!
Anyways Statesman said for the most part of the game were better then liutenants and a bit under the level of bosses but as our powers mature that does change a bit.
Thats a good point for our pets the 5% rate.
I dont know about the rest of the heroes and villians, but I do belive, I deserve some respect so crank out the scrapper rating versus me to a level of a person of my true standing.
The Legendary Cosmological Prince Reigar 53rd Illusion Control/Storm Summoning/Primal Forces Mastery/Incarnate
It's a dark and story night. That means something bad is happening out there
This may sound silly, but...
...PvP is balanced for teams, not duels, right?
So isn't the real question whether 2 random Blasters will own 2 random Scrappers?
Once you factor in what damage sets versus what defense sets, whether it's a last man standing Arena battle or hit and run Warburg battle, and other factors, the outcome may not be so unbalanced overall.
Of course, if you cherry pick the best Blapper versus the worst Scrapper (or vice versa) standing toe-to-toe and each not using tactics to maximize effectiveness, you are going to get skewed results.
The Devs are looking at this from the big picture, not the singular case of an Energy/Energy Blaster versus a Claws/SR Scrapper in a duel.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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I hate to say it, but your comments didnt address anything I said. We know Blasters are the dmg dealers, and in no way do it effect theyre overall dmg output if their dmg was less then scrappers in melee. They would still be the best dmg dealers in the game. So now answer my question, whats the trade off to over half the other ATs in the game for doing more dmg than scrappers? What the "risk" to them going into melee with squishies?
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Sorry I didnt get back to you sooner on this...
The risk involved is getting kited from range by these toons. Its often better for a blaster to pick them apart from range. Melee is best used against tougher to kill targets like scrappers.
BTW, I agree 100% that toggle drops for blasters need to be taken a look at. However, I dont think theyre damage should be tampered with.
-- Currently Playing --
Dexter Labrynth (SS/FA Brute)
Former member of Tribute and Victory Reborn
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I know a few Blasters who would love to contest that statement, interested?
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You know lucas is always up for a fight. 
The Kronos has a hold n00b!
Maybe some quick tips for melee when fighting blappers might help.
1) pop a BF BEFORE you charge in.
2) Since you have a BF on ya, hit the sucka! Do NOT sit there and attempt to get your toggles back on. A blapper can drop them faster than you can activate them.
3) If you see or hear BU/AIM/PB do NOT charge in face first. You are just asking to get your a$$ whipped. Attempt to avoid the blapper for a few seconds. Then unload on them.
The biggest problem is that many who play melee ATs refuse to alter their tactics from what they use in PvE.
In my perfect CoH world.....
Any poster attempting to nerfherd an AT would have the game lock them out of playing all other ATs but the one they are attempting to nerfherd.
Black Scourge: Do you actually post anything other than "nerf" suggestions? Just wondering because it seems to be all I see from you.
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I'd be happy with this. I'd also like to see Blasters un-resistable damage component possibly enhanced, and/or a "pierce" component (steady +acc bonus, or +to hit).
Making the ranged damage AT pwn in melee because they couldn't get it to work at range was a big mistake, IMO. The Dev team should expend a few brain cells trying to figure this out, IMO, and stop with the slap-dash fixes.
EM blappers would still end up with high damage/acc attacks, build up, and other tools. Toggle-dropping is being nerfed anyways.
But, as far as I can tell, the blaster community is by far the whiniest community in this game, and definately the one with the least reason to whine.
PS- The "give us mez protetion" thing is old. So old. It's been 3-4 issues and a year + already. I don't think you guys are getting it, do you?
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The least reason to whinne?
WHen this game came out, it was commonly reffered to as City of Blasters. Due to how quickly blasters came off the ground and the issues with things like smoke grenades. It quickly became a blaster waste land as people hit the 30s or so, realized the damage scalled poorly and started seeing what controlers, and scrappers could accomplish as they started getting there top tier powers.
Issue 2 comes along, scrapper get a damage buff and faster animations in some sets. Scrappers if you recall are the ones that started wolf herding back when tankers didnt have the damage for it. Regen commonaly soloed monsters due to monsters not doing enough damage fast enough to over come regen. Perma elude, perma MOG, perma unstoppable all ruled the day. Blasters were being out damaged when damage is what we were told was our thing. We got nothing.
After a while blasters were not that comon but you couldnt throw a halloween rock with out hitting a scrapper or controler. Suddenly issue 4 and pvp come out. blasters have some trouble, some fixes help, and suddenly the once ignored AT becomes a FOTM for PVPers everywhere. I have no complaints about blasters, yes they have problems i would love to see fixed, but thank god every update that little has been taken away from them. The AOE target nerf is about the biggest complaint i would have.
But for a year plus, i read scrappers complaining that they cant do "fill in the blank" they dont have AOEs like blasters, they dont get as much range, blah blah. And yes scrappers have been nerfed, repeatedly. And through all those nerfs what stands out to me is scrappers continueing to use blasters as some type of damage guage for how well they should be doing.
The cry of mez protection.... well i dont think any blaster will truely even think it will be given to us. But frankly most would give up all 4 epic powers to get it if offered. The cry of "then give us mez protection" really comes out when issues like this...Scrappers could out melee blasters" kind of issue comes out. Scrappers are sturdier then blasters. They are to take more damage, requiring you not to do as much damage. The cry is simply if you want to do what you say we an do, then where is our cookie for our shortcomings. We scrap with almost no defense, almost no resistance, lower hps and the biggst of all, no MEZ protection.
When someone says the ole "blasters scrap better then scrappers" and wants either buffs to scrappers or nerfs to blasters, yes we simply reply "fine wheres our mez protection"
And as for the whinniest AT int he game? No thread in the blaster forums ever reached the cry baby 500 page status that the regen thread on the changes back in issue 3-4 did. By far scrappers stamp their feet and whine much more then any other AT at any change. I understand the big changes when planed to make integration and instant healing mutally exclusive sucked. But again, if mez protection wasnt worth crying for, then it shouldnt have required a 500 page thread to have it corrected right?
Thats some good advice. Also,
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While im resetting toggles, running for my life, I'm having a blaster have a field day with me, with their UBAR burst dmg, lol.
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Why run? You have one of the better self heals in the game which requires you to be in melee range for it to hit. Its not like the blaster is gonna forget he has ranged attacks.
Lucas is in agreement that they should tone down toggle dropping (which is already happening 
) however not with a damage nerf to the melee attacks.
The Kronos has a hold n00b!
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Black Scourge: Do you actually post anything other than "nerf" suggestions? Just wondering because it seems to be all I see from you.
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Hehehe, Hence the name "Black_Scourge". No j/k, if you did a post search or "Find all posts of user" you'll see the only nerfs I call for are ludicrist ones like stacking Vengeance, and any variation of powers that end pvp in 2-3 hits. I like the whole "dancing" aspect of pvp, not the FPS style. Most of what Ive ever called for is better/cooler content to be introduced.
I stand corrected then.
I also agree that alot of PvP fights end too fast. I also agree about stacking Vengeances.
But......
1) toggle drops are here to stay. They may be toned down, but they will remain in the game.
2) Blaster damage is here to stay. It's the main purpose of the AT. Range or Melee doesn't matter. Blaster=Damage.
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Scrappers out damage blasters in melee. Blasters AT mod is 1, while scrappers is 1.125. Scrappers also get unresistable criticals of 2x damage 5% of the time, which can be compared to Blasters 33% unresistable damage.
Energy Melee's Stuns coupled with toggle dropping pretty much make the damage a secondary effect. While the blasters (who have little or no mez protections) are used to functioning with break frees active, most scrappers are not, as they rely on their inherent protection powers to keep them safe.
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This just doesn't ring true. I have a 40 EM/invul brute and a 41 en/en blaster. Both have total focus. Now I'm aware that the brute AT mod is much lower than the scrapper one, but a full fury bar should compensate for that. The brute does less than 600 to an even level minion with full fury and whichever of aim/BU he gets, the blaster gets both aim and BU, and does about 750 - some secondary effect.
TheoPWildebeest 41 en/en/elec blaster Freedom
Your ex from hell 40 EM/invul brute Protector
and 70+ others including 3 CoH 50s and 3 more CoV 40s
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
are we factoring in defiance here at all?
a blaster with the right dam resistance can stay in the red along time, with a crap load more damage than scrappers could only dream about.
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Sure then give blaster mez protection also.
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Seriously, though. Give everyone mez protection, just a little bit.
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1) 5% in PvP? So other players count as minions for purposes of determining criticals?
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Yeah really. Didn't you just say in the Brute thread about fury that players counted as AVs for fury building purposes? But they only count as minions for critical chance? That doesn't seem right.
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Yeah, this is what I don't get, with my scrapper I rarely ever see criticals. I think it would go a long way with boosting scrappers in PvP. Of course this is coming from a guy that has a katana and DM scrapper.