To Hit Debuff Enhancement Change Explained
By
Amber_Blaze,
Posted on: 2006-04-05 16:34 in Developers' Corner
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Statesman, is it possible that you could address or explain how this will effect such a combination (Dark/Dark) that relies on these ToHit Debuffs?
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See my post slightly further up to see how badly Darkest Night's getting nerfed.
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Except Darkest Night isn't the only power that will accept ToHit DeBuffs. I'm trying to put an ! (exclamation mark) to the the fact that this is really messing with Dark/Dark sets that utilize the ToHit Debuff Enchantments acceptance in their powers and therefore slot away with them. (Also including in sorts, the MMs who take Necro/Dark having a big impact also)
These all take ToHit Debuffs in them from the Dark/Dark Set:
Dark Blast, Gloom, Moonbeam, Tenebrous Tentalces, Night Fall, Torrent, Life Drain, Blackstar, Twilight Grasp, Darkest Night, Fearsome Stare, Dark Servant
That's a considerably bigger amount of powers effected in any set/combo of powers than any Rad/ or Storm/ or Trick Arrow/ or /Devices
I think taking a look at the dual use of Dark warrants a far greater look, but I'm biased.
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(Base To Hit + To Hit Buffs - (To Hit Debuffs * Combat Mod) Defense) capped at 5% or 95% * Accuracy (capped at 5% or 95%, again)
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OK, here. Why must this be so very complicated? Having two different types of to-hits is a mess to keep track of, especially in terms of tryint to buff both.
If you fold Accuracy and ToHit into the same stat, and then divide the sum Accuracy by 1 minus the defense, would something like this
(Base Accuracy + Accuracy Buffs - (Accuracy Debuffs * Combat Mod))/(1-Defense), final result capped at 5% or 95%
not be a lot more intuitive? It would eliminate the annoyance of two different beneficial stats to keep track of, particularly when you don't have a way to increase one of them, and would make Defense do exactly what it is described as doing - before hitting one of the caps, 25% Defense would make 25% of the attacks that would have otherwise hit you now miss, reducing a sum 40% chance to-hit to 30%, and 80% to 60%, and 50% to 37.5%, and so on and so forth. Defense would be statistically the same in equal amounts as Resistance, and apply equally well regardless of mob rank and level - scaling perfectly.
The only downside I can see would be needing to rebalance the numbers for Defense powers, but a simple doubling would probably take care of it. And everything would be a lot simpler.
Jerk 4 Life
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My Arcs: #4827: Earth For Humans. #6391: Young Love.
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(Base Accuracy + Accuracy Buffs - (Accuracy Debuffs * Combat Mod))/(1-Defense), final result capped at 5% or 95%
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This has the Official Dr. Pippy Seal of Approval. 
Edit: Replaced excessive but well-deserved snark with a more polite plea for greater care on the part of Cryptic to ensure that its figures are correct.
Statesman : math problem :: magnet : computer (for those of you who remember the old SAT-Verbal analogies)
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In order to decipher this a little bit easier, lets take a look at the to hit formula.
(Base To Hit + To Hit Buffs - (To Hit Debuffs * Combat Mod) Defense) capped at 5% or 95% * Accuracy (capped at 5% or 95%, again)
In the case of the Base To Hit Defense, the value is floored at ..05 or 5%. It cant go below that. Similarly, the result after being multiplied by Accuracy cant go higher than .95 or 95%
The To Hit chance also increased over level. A +1 level had a 1.05 modifier, +2 level 1.1 and +3 1.15. For example, the base to hit chance of a lieutenant +2 levels was .58*1.1 or 63.8%.
Now lets take a look at the effect that the To Hit change has on the To Hit Debuff Enhancement change with Radiation Infection and a Defender.
Before
Radiation Infection has a base To Hit debuff of 2.5 * the Defenders Archetype boost of 0.125 = 0.3125. With 2 SOs under the Schedule A (a 66% increase to the Debuff), the end result would be 0.5187.
Heres a breakdown of how this would play out against various ranks and levels
Even Con
Minion .5 (Base to Hit) -0.5187 (Radiation Infection To Hit Debuff) = -0.0187 or 5% chance to hit (minimum before Accuracy modifications)
Lieutenant 5.66%
Boss 13.13%
+1 Level
Minion 8.32%
Lieutenant 15.85%
Boss 23.32%
+2 Levels
Minion 18.50%
Lieutenant 26.03%
Boss 33.50%
+3 Levels
Minion 31.28%
Lieutenant 38.81%
Boss 46.28%
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You're either hiding a modifier from us somewhere in your spreadsheet or your numbers are wrong. Base To Hit, based on your assertion that +1 is 1.05, +2 is 1.1, +3 is 1.15:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre> Minion Lieut Boss
Even 50.00% 57.53% 65.00%
+1 Lvl 52.50% 60.41% 68.25%
+2 Lvl 55.00% 63.28% 71.50%
+3 Lvl 57.50% 66.16% 74.75% </pre><hr />
Effectiveness of Radiation Infection To Hit Debuff is 2.5 * 0.125 * 1.666 * LvlMod:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre> LvlMod Debuff
Even 1 -52.06%
+1 Lvl 0.9 -46.86%
+2 Lvl 0.8 -41.65%
+3 Lvl 0.65 -33.84% </pre><hr />
Now, with some simple arithmetic, we get Base To Hit - Debuff = To Hit chance
Even Con
Minion .5 - .5206 = -0.0206 or 5%
Lieutenant 5.47%
Boss 12.94%
+1 Level
Minion 5.64%
Lieutenant 13.55%
Boss 21.39%
+2 Levels
Minion 13.35%
Lieutenant 21.63%
Boss 29.85%
+3 Levels
Minion 23.66%
Lieutenant 32.32%
Boss 40.91%
Geez, why is it that when I'm reading a dev math post I feel like I'm back grading final exams? :P
For those of you who prefer a side by side look at this global nerf to Enhanced To Hit Debuffs, here you go:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre> i6 i7 change
Minion 5%(cap) 6.25% 1.25%
Lieut. 5.47% 12.22% 6.75%
Boss 12.94% 19.50% 6.56%
+1 Min 5.64% 11.69% 6.04%
+1 Lt 13.55% 18.42% 4.87%
+1 Boss 21.39% 26.46% 5.06%
+2 Min 13.35% 18.00% 4.65%
+2 Lt 21.63% 25.53% 3.90%
+2 Boss 29.85% 34.32% 4.47%
+3 Min 23.66% 28.03% 4.37%
+3 Lt 32.32% 36.49% 4.17%
+3 Boss 40.91% 46.05% 5.14% </pre><hr />
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't i7 supposed to improve the effectiveness of Defense and ToHitDebuffs vs. higher ranks/levels? It seems to me the devs are doing everything they can to make sure ToHitDebuffs stay at or below Live levels while Defense gets a boost.
Statesman said...[ QUOTE ]
Several posters have rightly pointed out that my calculations do NOT take into account combat mods. I'll edit my post to reflect the "real" numbers (because combat mobs apply in both cases, I stupidly didn't include them in my spreadsheet).
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Here are the changes 
First Post ,Corrected Post and Error amount(negitives are baaaaaaad)
Before I7...2 SO's schl A [-0.5187 (Radiation Infection To Hit Debuff) chance to hit]
Even Con
Minion = 1.87% or 5% 1.87% or 5% = 0
Lt. = 6.125%. 5.66% = +0.456
Boss = 13.125%. 13.13% = -0.005
+1 Level
Minion = 3.125% or 5%. 8.32% = -3.32[or](-5.195)
Lt. = 11.125% 15.85% = -4.725
Boss = 18.125% 23.32% = -5.195
+2 Level
Minion = 13.125% 18.50% = -5.375
Lt. = 21.125% 26.03% = -4.905
Boss = 28.125% 33.50% = -5.375
+3 Level
Minion = 28.125% 31.28% = -3.155
Lt. = 36.125% 38.81% = -2.685
Boss = 43.125% 46.28% = -3.155
After I7...2 SO's schl B [-0.4372 (Radiation Infection To Hit Debuff) chance to hit]
Even Con
Minion = 6.25% 6.25% = 0
Lt. = 7.1875% 12.23% = -5.0425
Boss = 8.125% 19.50% = -11.375
+1 Level
Minion = 11.25% 11.69% = -0.44
Lt. = 12.937% 18.43% = -5.493
Boss = 14.625% 26.46% = -11.835
+2 Level
Minion = 16.25% 18.00% = -1.75
Lt. = 18.687% 25.54% = -6.853
Boss = 21.125% 34.32% = -13.195
+3 Level
Minion = 21.25% 28.03% = -6.78
Lt. = 24.437% 36.51% = -12.073
Boss = 27.625% 46.05% = -18.425
As you can see, the ERRORs were not in our favor 
How bad are the errors for +4/+5 levels? Also notice that the ERRORs were worse where he was trying to prove that I-7 wasn't going to be so bad 
I would like to think that he had been working with the first numbers when they came up with the ToHit DeBuff change, and now they will take another look at it 
But then again I AM a senile old man who is just a bit to trusting...
disco_, I believe that the base for Darkest Night is ~.185 as posted by _castle_
Welp, I've seen enough numbers from people who know how to do math to tell this is an irredeemable nerf.
You cannot argue that To Hit Debuffs are easier to use than Defense Buffs. You cannot argue that the toons who use them have enough damage dealing power to not feel this nerf. You cannot claim this was something you missed with ED and are cleaning up now.
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Id like to promise you that there wont be ANY changes in I7 that are nerfs and that any change is a buff, but thats unrealistic given that there might be bugs, errors, etc. It simply wouldnt be honest. BUT I do promise that I dont foresee any more big swings on how things are done.
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This is a big swing, bucko. Just put the nerfbat down.
Hmm, he's using 2 SOs for the example. Once you've got slots to spare, wouldn't folks be using 3 SOs? What would the numbers in these circumstances be compared to the 2 SO example?
Also, people are wondering on how PvP has changed. Let's generously assume there's only 1 acc SO on a player's attack. What's their new chance to hit you in PvP in I7 compared to now?
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Also, people are wondering on how PvP has changed. Let's generously assume there's only 1 acc SO on a player's attack. What's their new chance to hit you in PvP in I7 compared to now?
[/ QUOTE ] From what I've read further up, PvP is now 50% to hit, the same as Even Level Mobs in I-7. So you will see no change in PvP To-Hit 
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Thanks for clarifying states. I almost freaked out when i was told debuffs were being nerfed (I slot a lot of my mastermind's powers for it) but now I can rest easy knowing that they'll only be nerfed for about a month or two.
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Sorry, thats not acceptable to me, if this is an "I7" change, then put it in with I7, until then my toons have to suffer with this change because they are not able to change the HO code (which as many many people have pointed out sounds very odd).
My suggestion is keep your buff til I7.
Thanks, NC Soft, for closing my favorite game ever without warning and with plenty of life still left in it, and thus relieving me of the burden of EVER wanting to buy, try or even hear about another game from your company. Will my decision make a dent, or persuade them in anyway, shape or form? Nope, obviously not. Don't care. NC Soft is dead to me. ~ PsyFox
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From what I've read further up, PvP is now 50% to hit, the same as Even Level Mobs in I-7. So you will see no change in PvP To-Hit
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Nope, but PvP Debuffing just took another hard one in the yippybob again... Like I've said elsewhere, this is a drop from 3 SO giving 96% total enhancment, to just 55% for the immediate future. That's why I'm demmanding a 'Freespec' with this Patch, ON TOP of the one they'll be owing us in Issue-7. Anytime a whole set... (such as my Dark-Blasts in particular which I was just barely getting by on in PvP on my Dark/Kin corruptor) loses 40% of it's Debuffing capability, it's Game Over... and you have to rebuild it to survive in other ways such as reslotting for self Healing, Recharge of other power types, and even take up pool powers to get by.
If Statesman has any level of remorse for this Scheduling conflict which was entirely his fault, or Positron's fault, then he can show it by atleast giving us Respecs each time these powersets are radically changed. ...And don't anyone try kidding yourselves about I-7's test duration... it's a HUGE DAMN patch, bigger than Issue-1&2 combined, bigger than any issue we've seen yet. ...And that means more bugs, exploits, and voodoo phoenomenae than we've ever seen outside of Beta testing. There's no way in hell it'll be out a month after this current patch hits Live. Those who want to go almost 2 months on gimped builds can do it if they don't feel like respecing. But I have no issues with a little extra work to preserve my avatars, it's better than whining about it for almost 2 solid months and doing nothing to change it.
I don't mind the idea of maintaining a steady state to limit the improvements to the defense powers, if that's the intent here. Most of the numbers work out to more or less the same as before, so no worries... However, I'm not fond of making it harder to fight even cons and plus ones, of all things. Those're supposed to be our meat and potatoes. Maybe a slight base value nudge to focus the steady state maintenance on +0/+1?
Also, hey, by the way, does the 2 SOs = 66% in the calculations mean that To-Hit Debuffs aren't going to Schedule B? EDIT: Aha! Pretending I'm literate, no, no it doesn't.
Maybe we could just leave the enhancements in Schedule A and call it good?
Another Nerf!!!! Come on this is getting silly.
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Another Nerf!!!! Come on this is getting silly.
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Someone else want to say it? Or should I?
(Just do it quick, before Taser shows up and goes fullblown FB mode)
Hmmm... so what are the debuff resistance modifier numbers? Looks like even level bosses have a .8 modifier. So is it +1 = .9, +2 = .8, +3 = .7, etc?
BM3 - 50 Claws/Regenation Scrapper
Base Medic - 50 Gravity/Empathy Controller
Numerous others...
- The Earthguard -
Yes, this is really starting to look bad, especially with the new information that bosses and AVs by default, have an innate resistance to debuffing.
Is that on top of the energy/dark energy resistance against debuffs too?
I kind of thought I died spectacularly to Nightstar a month or so again. I thought it was just the i5/ED, but if they've snuck in an extra resistance in there that would explain me appying Darkest Night and then *immediately* faceplanting.
I bet this resistance also applies to the damage debuffing too.
Yay for defender gankage and being "happy" with Defenders. We really are the red-headed step-children of archtypes.
Still here, even after all this time!
Am I missing something, or is the net effect of this that for ToHitDebuffs I7 will = essentailly no net change. The improved toHit calculations that will cause def and toHitDbuff to scale + the enhancement change mean that defenders and others who rely on toHitDebuff end up in essentially the same place (not scaling). A little worse for near even con.
If I am grasping this correctly, I am not sure I get the point. If toHitDebuffs didn't scale before, they are sure not going to scale up now.
I seriously believe the real reason for this is to create more seperation between Contollers and Debuff Defenders. This minor nerf's effect is really just going to make Contollers even more valuable. After all, the ultimate to-hit debuff is a mez/sleep, and weakening debuff defender seems to be a new sport at Cryptic.
After all, debuff defenders are closest to controllers in role and effect and clearly they regret creating debuff defenders. They seem to be ok with buffing defenders or defenders that powers enhance teammates, but you start hitting mobs and screw you, that is Controller territory and it is obviously sacred!
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Why must this be so very complicated? Having two different types of to-hits is a mess to keep track of, especially in terms of tryint to buff both.
If you fold Accuracy and ToHit into the same stat, and then divide the sum Accuracy by 1 minus the defense, would something like this
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Because then the single terms allows defense buffs and tohit debuffs to completely overpower accuracy buffs (or be overpowered by).
You can see an example like this when dealing with damage debuffs.
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Hmmm... so what are the debuff resistance modifier numbers? Looks like even level bosses have a .8 modifier. So is it +1 = .9, +2 = .8, +3 = .7, etc?
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No, it's just a flat .9 for LTs, .8 for Bosses, and .7 for AVs for all levels.
I applied it to The Sheet, and my values match up almost exactly to Statesman's (there's a slight difference in the hundreths place, possibly due to rounding).
Either way, Debuffs (which were getting double-dinged before) are now getting triple-dinged, and that's no good.
You know what saddens me the most about this whole thread? Misinformation. Unlike others, I am willing to chalk it up to human error and not deliberate deception. But this has become an embarrassing pattern with this game.
Step one: A "Cryptic" announcement about a change - if any announcement is made at all.
Step two: Fanbois and DOOMers argue about the cryptic comments meaning. Min/maxers and math men test, crunch data and compare figures.
Step three: Red named poster steps in and "explains."
Step four: Fanbois and DOOMers point and say "see, I told you so." Min/maxers and math men point out the errors in the explanation.
Step five: The change goes live.
Step six: Red named poster apologizes for mistake.
Step seven: Sometimes a change is made, sometimes it isn't.
So much time, effort, and passion is wasted on this silly dance when all that is required is clear, accurate, number-based patch notes. Statesman and others have admitted they could do better. I appreciate that your original post was an attempt to do just that but, to be brutally honest (and with no small amount of irony), you failed to accurately calculate accuracy.
It's time for Cryptic and NCsoft to make clear, accurate, number-based patch notes a business commitment to its clients. Because it saves time and effort, fosters good relations, and it's the heroic thing to do.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
I'm torn here.
1. I really appreciate having the boss come here and give an explanation. You rarely get that from gaming companies.
2. I'm really annoyed something that is a substantial nerf in most situations (It will be worse for the people who use 3 enhancments), is being framed dishonestly. Its not just an error of omission, as all the talk about these changes matches up with the wrong numbers, not the corrected numbers.
This is a large nerf for a month+. If a month+ is no big deal, then how about we don't have to pay for that month? Its a big deal...
P.S. I am not currently playing any character who uses accuracy debuff (My DDD has been sidelined for a long time), I just feel bad for all those who do.
Quizzles, how do you get those to hit modifiers (0.3607 and 0.2984) for 3-slotted DN? Isn't it the same base debuff as RI -- 0.3125 plus enhancements?