To Hit Debuff Enhancement Change Explained
By
Amber_Blaze,
Posted on: 2006-04-05 16:34 in Developers' Corner
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Are my dark defenders gonna be even worse? Is that even possible?
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Only if they follow some players' suggestions and roll your server back to issue 1.
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Are my dark defenders gonna be even worse? Is that even possible?
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You'll be a little better off facing higher level mobs once I7 comes. Until then, Yeah, you'll be worse.
So if i understand this correctly - after I7, 2 TohitDebuff SOs in RI will floor up to +3 regardless if they are schedule A or B.
What was the point of this change again?
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First: we are NOT changing Defense Debuff Enhancements at all. This was an error in the patch notes.
Let me clarify a few things about the To Hit Debuff Enhancement change (from Schedule A or 8/16/33 to Schedule B or 5/10/20).
_Castle_ was right that the decision was affected by Hamidon Enhancements though this was not the primary reason for the change. We needed to change the way To Hit Debuff Enhancements worked because of the upcoming I7 change to the To Hit calculations. There have always been some issues with Defense and Resistance. The former was affected by level differences, while the latter was not. For example, an even con would have a base to hit value of %, while a Boss 2 levels higher than a player would have a %. But if a player had damage resistance, it would apply the same discount to damage regardless of the mobs level.
In order to balance the playing field, we decided to give mobs the same base To Hit value instead (this was, in fact, brought up on the forums!). Now all mobs, regardless of level, have a base to hit of 50%. The only difference between ranks of mobs (boss, lieutenant and minion) and levels is the Accuracy.
In order to decipher this a little bit easier, lets take a look at the to hit formula.
(Base To Hit + To Hit Buffs - (To Hit Debuffs * Combat Mod) Defense) capped at 5% or 95% * Accuracy (capped at 5% or 95%, again)
In the case of the Base To Hit Defense, the value is floored at ..05 or 5%. It cant go below that. Similarly, the result after being multiplied by Accuracy cant go higher than .95 or 95%
The To Hit chance also increased over level. A +1 level had a 1.05 modifier, +2 level 1.1 and +3 1.15. For example, the base to hit chance of a lieutenant +2 levels was .58*1.1 or 63.8%.
Now lets take a look at the effect that the To Hit change has on the To Hit Debuff Enhancement change with Radiation Infection and a Defender.
Before
Radiation Infection has a base To Hit debuff of 2.5 * the Defenders Archetype boost of 0.125 = 0.3125. With 2 SOs under the Schedule A (a 66% increase to the Debuff), the end result would be 0.5187.
Heres a breakdown of how this would play out against various ranks and levels
Even Con
Minion .5 (Base to Hit) -0.5187 (Radiation Infection To Hit Debuff) = -0.0187 or 5% chance to hit (minimum before Accuracy modifications)
Lieutenant 5.66%
Boss 13.13%
+1 Level
Minion 8.32%
Lieutenant 15.85%
Boss 23.32%
+2 Levels
Minion 18.50%
Lieutenant 26.03%
Boss 33.50%
+3 Levels
Minion 31.28%
Lieutenant 38.81%
Boss 46.28%
After the I7 change
Instead of changing the base to hit chance, we instead are changing Accuracy. Take an even con boss: his To Hit is only .5, but his Accuracy is 1.3. The net effect is that a boss still hits someone 65% of the time against someone without Defense, but with Defense, the equation changes substantially.
Lets take Radiation Infection again. Its a Schedule B now; with 2 SOs, the net result would be 0.3123 * 1.4 = 0.4372.
Every single mob has now been given Accuracy to make it so that their base To Hit value is only .5 rather than the values you see above. In addition, higher ranks have an inherent resistance to To Hit Debuffs (.1 for Lts., .2 for Bosses, .3 for AVs).
Ill work it out a little more fully here with the To Hit Formula. Taking that boss mentioned above, his To Hit would work out like this
(0.5 - (0.4375*.8)) * 1.3 = 0.1950 or 19.50%.
Whereas previously, the To Hit chance had a level modifier, now that applies to Accuracy. +1 level is 1.1, +2 1.2, and +3 1.3. A lt.'s base To Hit is then .5*1.15*1.2 or .69/69%.
Ill apply it below so that you can see the changes in action.
Even Con
Minion 6.25%
Lieutenant 12.23%
Boss 19.50%
+1 Level
Minion 11.69%
Lieutenant 18.43%
Boss 26.46%
+2 Levels
Minion 18.00%
Lieutenant 25.54%
Boss 34.32%
+3 Levels
Minion 28.03%
Lieutenant 36.51%
Boss 46.05%
Ideally, the Enhancement change shouldve gone hand in hand with I7. To be honest, there was an error there. Unfortunately, we discovered that we couldnt pull the change out without jeopardizing the I7 release schedule. Right now, QA (at NCSoft and Cryptic) is working away at I7 and shaking out bugs. If we were to roll back this change, our teams would need to put I7 aside and retest the current build. I made the decision to stay the course instead.
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So if I'm understanding this correctly...
According to you rnumbers...
The Debuff Enhancement change wasn't so much a nerf as a tweak/rebalance/adjustment to keep it on relative parity with how Defense & ToHit work under I7.
If this is true (and I believe it is), this makes sense and I do apologize for being opposed to this change.
This sort of explanation / example giving is a great thing. I do wholeheartedly wish for it to continue into the future. This helps to dispel many questions and hazy areas of the patchnotes.
Thank you.
Virtue: multiple characters.
CoH/V: Woot! Maybe Fun is to be had once again.
Ack! RUN! Regen is glowing mean & green!
If it reduces you, it's a nerf.
If it buffs the mobs, it's challenge.
They are not the same.
I really would like to know how the numbers work out for PvP, Statesman. That's where the hardest edge of things is. After all, no AI will ever be as hard a fight as a good human, and we want to be the best we can be.
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Coldsmoke (Ice/Dark)
Saber Maid (BS/Regen)
and others...
After seeing your edited numbers, it looks like about a 3% nerf at +1, even steven at +2, and about a 3% buff at +3.
For teaming, the numbers look fine, and hopefully testing will bear this out.
Frankly though, I'm a little worried about the way the numbers jump for an even-level lieutenant or boss. Chiefly the lieuts, since you can't avoid them by playing on heroic.
Obviously, the sky isn't falling, but I would recommend watching this as we test I7.
Speaking of which....
*off to test server*
*taps feet*
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I really would like to know how the numbers work out for PvP, Statesman. That's where the hardest edge of things is. After all, no AI will ever be as hard a fight as a good human, and we want to be the best we can be.
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Should be the same as Even level minions. All PvP Base ToHit is 50%. Everyone is the same "level" in PvP. So you'd be fighting even level opponents, in this case minions since that is where our ToHit & Defense sit (at base levels).
Virtue: multiple characters.
CoH/V: Woot! Maybe Fun is to be had once again.
Ack! RUN! Regen is glowing mean & green!
If it reduces you, it's a nerf.
If it buffs the mobs, it's challenge.
They are not the same.
Honestly, I'm not sure the change for the +0/+1 foes is any cause for concern. At the levels where I'm fighting +0 and +1 minions and LTs most of the time, I'm not tossing end-consuming debuffs on them.
Also, with respect to respecs - what would people do with them? Respec out of their debuffs for a month, then put them back when I7 came along? I don't know, that seems sorta silly. I don't like the "gap nerf" at all, but my character isn't cripled by it. Even soloing.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Also, with respect to respecs - what would people do with them? Respec out of their debuffs for a month, then put them back when I7 came along? I don't know, that seems sorta silly. I don't like the "gap nerf" at all, but my character isn't cripled by it. Even soloing.
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Agreed. I use debuffers, and frankly? If your character is somehow crippled by a 5-10% difference in debuffing for a single month, you really have issues. There are other powers available to you aside from the debuffs that'll work plenty fine in the meanwhile.
If we get our freespec now JUST because of the debuff month gap, it means we won't get it in a Post-I7 world -- it means we won't be able to roll our new villains (elecs, thugs, etc) and bank a freespec on them. I'd rather have it later and get it for ALL my chars than have it earlier just so my Dark/Dark will be marginally better. Yeesh.
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Honestly, I'm not sure the change for the +0/+1 foes is any cause for concern. At the levels where I'm fighting +0 and +1 minions and LTs most of the time, I'm not tossing end-consuming debuffs on them.
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True. If you can solo on a higher level than heroic, I'm not sure you have much business complaining about a nerf you would have to lower your difficulty level to experience.
To be honest, it's a few particular lieuts that concern me. Spectral Demon Lords for one. Fungoids maybe.
The effectiveness against Elite Bosses may be worth testing, too.
Nothing major, but worth looking into.
I can see, though, why they weren't willing to let the enhancements stay at 33%.
Let's do a side by side comparison. The pre-I7 number is on the left, the post-I7 on the right.
Even con: Pre/Post
Minion: 5%/6.25%
Lieut.: 5.66%/12.23%
Boss: 13.13%/19.50%
+1: Pre/Post
Minion: 8.32%/11.69%
Lieut.: 15.85%/18.43%
Boss: 23.32%/26.46%
+2: Pre/Post
Minion: 18.50%/18.00%
Lieut.: 26.03%/25.54%
Boss: 33.50%/34.42%
+3: Pre/Post
Minion: 31.28%/28.03%
Lieut.: 38.81%/36.51%
Boss: 46.05%/46.28%
I note that with the corrected numbers, ToHit Debuffs are less effective against enemies up to +1 regardless of rank. They are less effective against bosses at least up to +3.
I'm sorry, Statsman, but I'm not seeing how this isn't a nerf under most circumstances. At best, the improved ToHit calculation means its less of a nerf, but it is nonetheless an overall reduction in the effectiveness of slotted ToHit Debuffs, by your own numbers.
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In addition, higher ranks have an inherent resistance to To Hit Debuffs (.1 for Lts., .2 for Bosses, .3 for AVs).
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Why, Statesman? Why nerf us even more?
This makes my sheet and my graphs all wrong, I'll have to redo them to spread this newfound doom and gloom. Actually, I've already redone the sheet and can see the numbers. Let's look at Darkest Night 3-slotted for ToHit debuffs.
Right Now, no nerfs:
Darkest Night comes out to be about a .3607 ToHit modifier
+0
Minion: 13.93
LT: 21.93
Boss: 28.93
+1
Minion: 22.53
LT: 30.78
Boss: 39.03
+2
Minion: 31.44
LT: 40.144
Boss: 49.144
+3
Minion: 41.55
LT: 51.3
Boss: 61.05
I7 with nerfs:
It comes out to a .2984 ToHit modifier.
The change from right now can be seen in parenthesis.
+0
Minion: 21.51 (+7.58)
LT: 28.01 (+6.07)
Boss: 35.37 (+6.44)
+1
Minion: 26.79 (+4.26)
LT: 34.06 (+3.28)
Boss: 42.17 (+3.14)
+2
Minion: 32.65 (+1.21)
LT: 40.69 (+.546)
Boss: 49.65 (+.506)
+3
Minion: 40.93 (-.62)
LT: 49.83 (-1.47)
Boss: 59.46 (-1.59)
Conclusions:
+0 = MUCH worse
+1 = MUCH worse
+2 = Slightly worse
+3 = Slightly better
At least defense sets will make out ok.
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In addition, higher ranks have an inherent resistance to To Hit Debuffs (.1 for Lts., .2 for Bosses, .3 for AVs).
[/ QUOTE ]Why, Statesman? Why nerf us even more?
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Unless I miss my guess, this has been in effect from day one. Either that, or all the AVs I fight are really lucky, because they don't seem to be too phased by Hurricane.
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In addition, higher ranks have an inherent resistance to To Hit Debuffs (.1 for Lts., .2 for Bosses, .3 for AVs).
[/ QUOTE ]Why, Statesman? Why nerf us even more?
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Unless I miss my guess, this has been in effect from day one. Either that, or all the AVs I fight are really lucky, because they don't seem to be too phased by Hurricane.
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I've never before ran across this, nor have I noticed it. As far as can tell, it's new info to all of us.
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In addition, higher ranks have an inherent resistance to To Hit Debuffs (.1 for Lts., .2 for Bosses, .3 for AVs).
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Why, Statesman? Why nerf us even more?
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Hm, I missed this.
Statesman, why is this neccessary?
Look at the numbers here. Do they need a rank-based resistance to this? This makes Defense much, much more effective than debuffing against the foes that conventional wisdom says it matters most for the team Defender (or whatever) to debuff.
The existance of that rank-based resistance makes no sense to me, and seems directly contrary to the very motivations for the "scaling" changes to begin with.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I'm sorry, Statsman, but I'm not seeing how this isn't a nerf under most circumstances. At best, the improved ToHit calculation means its less of a nerf, but it is nonetheless an overall reduction in the effectiveness of slotted ToHit Debuffs, by your own numbers.
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It seems to me that this might warrant a small boost to base values.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
From where Statesman put that in his post, his calculations of before the change, and with the wording of it in context to where it is, I'm pretty sure that the ranks having resistances to ToHit debuffs are new as of I7.
This reads "DOOM" (ok not that severe), if you're playing at anything that is even level, +1 and is a +2 level minion. Their chance of hitting is somewhat greater. Add in the number of those combined in any given mob, and it becomes more substaintal.
However, the change seems to make it more and more "better" to go against +2 Lt, Boss and all +3s. Their Acc is actually lower than what it was before.
Hmm. Interesting.
I think this will honestly greatly effect a D/D combination more so than someone who is just a Rad/. As those of us know who play D/D, their primary job and only role is completely to DeBuff in both of their primary and secondary sets. This could spell messiness for this set along with any other set that relies so heavily on ToHit Debuffs.
While this isn't a huge change, I cringe to see how much this will effect my D/D Corruptor.
Statesman, is it possible that you could address or explain how this will effect such a combination (Dark/Dark) that relies on these ToHit Debuffs?
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Statesman, is it possible that you could address or explain how this will effect such a combination (Dark/Dark) that relies on these ToHit Debuffs?
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See my post slightly further up to see how badly Darkest Night's getting nerfed.
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In addition, higher ranks have an inherent resistance to To Hit Debuffs (.1 for Lts., .2 for Bosses, .3 for AVs).
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Why, Statesman? Why nerf us even more?
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I think its pretty clear. They didn't nerf To Hit Debuffs in the Global Defense Reduction, which in their eyes has resulted in To Hit Debuffs being "overpowered" relative to other defensive powers (+Def or +Res buffs, etc.). Thus, they throw in this nerf.
Statesman, has it ever occured to the folks at Cryptic that you would save CuppaJo and the other forum mods a lot of trouble if you guys bothered to take the time to thoroughly document and explain changes as or before they go to the Test Server? I mean, your line about "Cryptic must improve" in regards to patch notes is looking like nothing more than lip-service at this point. I applauded you for making that statement, but there has been no visible improvement to the accuracy or completeness of the patch notes since then.
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Jen Corbae
Illuminance
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I think this will honestly greatly effect a D/D combination more so than someone who is just a Rad/. As those of us know who play D/D, their primary job and only role is completely to DeBuff in both of their primary and secondary sets. This could spell messiness for this set along with any other set that relies so heavily on ToHit Debuffs.
While this isn't a huge change, I cringe to see how much this will effect my D/D Corruptor.
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Actually, I think this is backwards.
Why? Because Dark Miasma has more tools which debuff foe accuracy. Those add directly to one another, which is going to be vastly more powerful than it used to be, completely unenhanced.
For toHit debuffs in addition to Darkest Night, Dark Miasma also has Fearsome Stare, Twilight Grasp, and Dark Servant (a powerful toHit debuff on his own if you toss him right on foes). If you're Dark/Dark, you actually have even more debuffs going for you, and they're all more powerful in I7 too.
Maybe it's a playstyle thing. I don't toss Darkest Night on LTs unless they're outrageously dangerous (+3 or more) and I can't hold them with Petryfying Gaze. If faced with a room full of LTs (assuming I don't think I should just flee) I would use Fearsome Stare to mez them, then start holding people. Darkest Night is reserved for bosses, which are a target I can stack all the above tools on with Darkest Night.
No, I think this damages Rad worst. I can't say that with authority because I never got a Rad Emis Defender over 21. But Rad doesn't debuff toHit with as many tools.
It's also clearly bad for Storm Summoning. I don't know if the other benefits of Hurricane and the other powers make up the difference - I not only haven't played Storm characters, I haven't played with them much, either.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Why, Statesman? Why nerf us even more?
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I think Statesman has it in for defenders. Nothing but Nerfs from the day he declared them "most balanced"
Thanks mate for ... nothing
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In addition, higher ranks have an inherent resistance to To Hit Debuffs (.1 for Lts., .2 for Bosses, .3 for AVs).
[/ QUOTE ]Why, Statesman? Why nerf us even more?
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Unless I miss my guess, this has been in effect from day one. Either that, or all the AVs I fight are really lucky, because they don't seem to be too phased by Hurricane.
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I've never before ran across this, nor have I noticed it. As far as can tell, it's new info to all of us.
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Well, I've never seen a dev post acknowledging that ToHit is less effective against higher ranks.
But I have noticed that bosses seem to have an easier time punching through Hurricane -- something I could just chalk up to their higher chance to hit -- and most AVs seem virtually unaffected by it. (Specifically, the Praetorians.)
REgardless of whether or not its new, I submit that it's a bad idea, and should be abolished post haste.
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REgardless of whether or not its new, I submit that it's a bad idea, and should be abolished post haste.
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I agree. As I mentioned above, it violates what seem to me to be the reasons for the change in mob toHit calculations. Powers being less effective against more powerful foes is a double whammy when those foes are already, by definition, more powerul.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Im not [censored] because I love this game and believe that the devs have our overall experience in mind, that being said...
Are my dark defenders gonna be even worse? Is that even possible?
I am PL in RL.
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