To Hit Debuff Enhancement Change Explained
By
Amber_Blaze,
Posted on: 2006-04-05 16:34 in Developers' Corner
[ QUOTE ]
+2 Level
Minion .6 -.05187 = 13.125%
Lt. .68 -.05187 = 21.125%
Boss .75 -.05187 = 28.125%
+3 Level
Minion .65 -.05187 = 28.125%
Lt. .73 -.05187 = 36.125%
Boss .8 -.05187 = 43.125%
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the numbers you're giving for +2 and +3 (pre-I7) ought to be for +3 and +4 respectively, unless you were factoring something else into those equations.
Maybe you could recheck your spreadsheet?
The numbers I get are:
+2 Minion 8.125%
+2 Lt 16.125%
+2 Boss 23.125%
+3 Minion 13.125%
+3 Lt 21.125%
+3 Boss 28.125%
The post I7 equivalents will be
[ QUOTE ]
+2 Level
Minion 16.25%
Lt. 18.687%
Boss 21.125%
+3 Level
Minion 21.25%
Lt. 24.437%
Boss 27.625%
[/ QUOTE ]
Statesman,
Thank you very much for a great explanation of the changes in ToHit Debuffs.
Now please explain why Defense Debuffs did NOT get dropped to Schedule B when Defense Buffs are Schedule B? Aren't folks using Enzymes in Defense Toggles and getting more of a buff than they should be? (33% rather than 20%?)
Even if the Defense Debuff portion of the three part enhancement HO is only giving a 20% buff, why aren't normal SO defense debuff enhancements equal to their buff counterparts?
Be well, people of CoH.
So, the Schedule was changed in an egative way, yet because of upcoming changes, the net effect is POSITIVE gain.
Neat. Really neat. Hopefully, now that that's been stated, people will stop complaining . . .
It certainly appears that Statesman's calculations don't take into consideration that higher-level enemies resist the effects of debuffs.
+0 resists 0%.
+1 resists 10%.
+2 resists 20%.
+3 resists 35%.
+4 resists 52%.
Higher cons get even worse of course.
Beyond +3 I won't get into because Statesman didn't, however.
Now I'll quote Statesman's math and then incorporate the resistance factor alongside it.
[ QUOTE ]
Before
Radiation Infection has a base To Hit debuff of 2.5 * the Defenders Archetype boost of 0.125 = 0.3125. With 2 SOs under the Schedule A (a 66% increase to the Debuff), the end result would be 0.5187.
Heres a breakdown of how this would play out against various ranks and levels
Even Con
Minion .5 (Base to Hit) -0.5187 (Radiation Infection To Hit Debuff) = -0.0187 or 5% chance to hit (minimum before Accuracy modifications)
Lt. .58 - 0.5187 = 0.06125 or 6.125%.
Boss .65 - 0.5187 = 0.13125 or 13.125%.
+1 Level
Minion 55 -.05187 = 3.125% which becomes 5%.
Lt. 63 -.05187 = 11.125%
Boss 70 -.05187 = 18.125%
+2 Level
Minion .6 -.05187 = 13.125%
Lt. .68 -.05187 = 21.125%
Boss .75 -.05187 = 28.125%
+3 Level
Minion .65 -.05187 = 28.125%
Lt. .73 -.05187 = 36.125%
Boss .8 -.05187 = 43.125%
[/ QUOTE ]
Now with "purple patch" resistance, this is the current game performance as I understand it:
Even Con
Minion .5 (Base to Hit) -0.5187 (Radiation Infection To Hit Debuff) * 1.0 (debuff 100% effective against Even Con) = -0.0187 or 5% chance to hit (minimum before Accuracy modifications)
Lt. .58 - 0.5187 = 0.06125 or 6.125%.
Boss .65 - 0.5187 = 0.13125 or 13.125%.
+1 Level (debuffs 90% effective)
Minion .55 - (0.5187 * 0.9) = 8.317%
Lt. .63 - (0.5187 * 0.9) = 16.317%
Boss .70 -(0.5187 * 0.9) = 23.317%
(0.5187 * 0.9 = 0.46683)
+2 Level (debuffs 80% effective)
Minion .6 - (0.5187 * 0.8) = 18.504%
Lt. .68 - (0.5187 * 0.8) = 26.504%
Boss .75 - (0.5187 * 0.8) = 33.504%
(0.5187 * 0.8 = 0.41496)
+3 Level (debuffs 65% effective)
Minion .65 - (0.5187 * 0.65) = 31.285%
Lt. .73 - (0.5187 * 0.65) = 39.285%
Boss .8 - (0.5187 * 0.65) = 46.285%
(0.5187 * 0.65 = 0.337155)
Since Statesman didn't list the accuracy modifiers for higher cons in his "post-I7 calculations," I can't calculate out the effect of resistance on the post-I7 numbers without spending more time and effort on "backing into" the modifier than I feel like spending at this time.
But since his pre-I7 numbers appear wrong given my understanding of the "purple patch," I'm afraid I have to assume his post-I7 numbers were wrong also. It is still possible that there is a "net benefit" to the I7 change despite the schedule nerf. However, we still can't assume so from Statesman's original post because he got the "current game" numbers wrong that are being used as a measure for comparison.
(The purpose of this post is mainly to get a dev response about the "purple patch" issue with to-hit debuffs and how it affects the schedule change and I7, anyway, not to prove Statesman wrong).
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
Several posters have rightly pointed out that my calculations do NOT take into account combat mods. I'll edit my post to reflect the "real" numbers (because combat mobs apply in both cases, I stupidly didn't include them in my spreadsheet).
Statesman -- Thank you for adding the correction.
Please also add numbers for the Trick Arrow to-hit debuffs before and after, once you fix your spreadsheet!
Thanks for clarifying states. I almost freaked out when i was told debuffs were being nerfed (I slot a lot of my mastermind's powers for it) but now I can rest easy knowing that they'll only be nerfed for about a month or two. I'm actually glad that they're going to start working better on bosses and high level enemies where I really need the help. So just a general thank you I guess.
Thank you. I'm not excited to see any nerfage to one of my favorite activities (debuffing evil guys until they cry), but thank you for explaining your reasoning. If the whole Hami-O thing was the actual reason for this change I would have lost some respect for the dev team, since nerfing TH Debuffs would be a horrible kludge of a fix.
[ QUOTE ]
Statesman -- Thank you for adding the correction.
Please also add numbers for the Trick Arrow to-hit debuffs before and after, once you fix your spreadsheet!
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure the spreadsheet will handle numbers that small. 
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
[ QUOTE ]
we discovered that we couldnt pull the change out without jeopardizing the I7 release schedule. Right now, QA (at NCSoft and Cryptic) is working away at I7 and shaking out bugs. If we were to roll back this change, our teams would need to put I7 aside and retest the current build. I made the decision to stay the course instead.
[/ QUOTE ]
Great... just Great... then you can "Make the decision" to give us a 'Freespec' with this patch so we won't be totally gimped between now and when I-7 finally goes live. Debuffing defenders already have enough hardships to endure. A month or more of sucking b/c you guys messed up the development schedule.... shouldn't be one of them
...You already owe one to everybody who took Whirlwind...
So what is the To-Hit debuff cap pre-I7, and what will it be the cap post I7 for Darkness Night, Hurricane, and Radiation Infection, specifically for PVP? Anybody know?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we discovered that we couldnt pull the change out without jeopardizing the I7 release schedule. Right now, QA (at NCSoft and Cryptic) is working away at I7 and shaking out bugs. If we were to roll back this change, our teams would need to put I7 aside and retest the current build. I made the decision to stay the course instead.
[/ QUOTE ]
Great... just Great... then you can "Make the decision" to give us a "Free-spec" with this patch so we won't be totally gimped between now and when I-7 finally goes live. Debuffing defenders already have enough hardships to endure, a month or more of sucking b/c you guys messed up the development scheduele. ...You already owe one to everybody who took Whirlwind...
[/ QUOTE ]
CuppaJo has already stated that a freespec will be delivered shortly after I-7 goes live. You should read the dev digest more before making demands.
Be well, people of CoH.
I'm not worried over whether there's one's coming WITH i-7, that's just common sense.
We need one for THIS patch
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not worried over whether there's one's coming WITH i-7, that's just common sense.
We need one for THIS patch
[/ QUOTE ]
I certainly wouldn't gripe about it, but it isn't going to happen. Not with I-7 a month away from live.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
...You already owe one to everybody who took Whirlwind...
[/ QUOTE ]
You do relize Whirlwind was being abused? It was never ment to unroot animations and such. The power was just poorly designed to act as Repel/Repulsion Field. It should of just animated the player to spin for a few seconds, then have a graphic like Repulsion field or Hurricane to indicate the toggle is active.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...You already owe one to everybody who took Whirlwind...
[/ QUOTE ]
You do relize Whirlwind was being abused? It was never ment to unroot animations and such. The power was just poorly designed to act as Repel/Repulsion Field. It should of just animated the player to spin for a few seconds, then have a graphic like Repulsion field or Hurricane to indicate the toggle is active.
[/ QUOTE ]
To be fair, that really isn't the players fault. They were using the power as it was put in place.
However, we won't be getting a respec before I-7 because now we know we are getting one then.
Until I-7 goes live, well... suffer or don't play the toons that need respecing.
Be well, people of CoH.
Yeah really. I remember the devs officially announced that the unrooting of Whirlwind was not part of the power's design or intent and that it was going to get a fix soon. But ppl still respeced into the power nether the less, knowing it was being exploited. Now ppl wanna cry up a storm. Well boo [censored] who.
Issue 6 was a month and a half away from issue 5's, and for heroes.. wasn't considered a full issue, CuppaJo agreed it had to be downplayed infact and not called an actual "free expansion", but SINCE it included E.D. in it, we got our FreeSpec. It was a major infastructure patch update ... which this patch has enough criteria to qualify as close enough.
Rescheduling/Rebuilding it wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't.
[ QUOTE ]
Ideally, the Enhancement change shouldve gone hand in hand with I7. To be honest, there was an error there. Unfortunately, we discovered that we couldnt pull the change out without jeopardizing the I7 release schedule. Right now, QA (at NCSoft and Cryptic) is working away at I7 and shaking out bugs. If we were to roll back this change, our teams would need to put I7 aside and retest the current build. I made the decision to stay the course instead.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, basically, you're saying "Don't bother to play anything that plans to survive based on ToHit DeBuffs (rad/dark/etc) until Issue 7 goes live"? Any chance of getting a temporary boost to those base values so we can remain effective until then? Or give us an idea of how long its going to be while all ToHit Debuffs are gimped?
Also, why couldn't a short version of this been in the patch notes? 99% of the complaints that have been floating around would have been dismissed. Instead, we get something about reducing all ToHit DeBuffs because of Hamidon Enhancements? Weren't we promised that the patch notes would at least try to be honest and accurate?
That's a great point. How about it, Statesman? Does this warrant a freespec before Issue 7 goes live? That would certainly making testing Issue 7 easier, since when we copy our characters over they will already have a freespec ready to go...
So about those defense debuffs....
Be well, people of CoH.
well after seeing that statesman has messed up his calcs.. we will have to either..
#1 wait until the real numbers comes out(as he has said he needs to plug the new numbers in)
or #2 wait for I7 to drop...
but after seeing how I4-I6 got handled... im NOT holding my breath for fuzzy bunny time. Im not crying DOOOOOM. But i am QUITE GUNSHY on what is about to drop.
"Lokk, you have a powersuit that is self-contained, can withstand any atmosphere, it can fly and shoot out energy beams. BUT you cant open the helmet to have coffee and doughnts??? Sad man.... just... sad" PatriotPrime asking me why I am angry all the time.
[ QUOTE ]
but after seeing how I4-I6 got handled... im NOT holding my breath for fuzzy bunny time. Im not crying DOOOOOM. But i am QUITE GUNSHY on what is about to drop
[/ QUOTE ]
They're keeping it quiet, but they're going to make the Fitness pool inherent.
... for mobs.
A free respec for I7 means we wont see a trial implemented into the game to get unlimited respecs for 50s anytime soon. 
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah really. I remember the devs officially announced that the unrooting of Whirlwind was not part of the power's design or intent and that it was going to get a fix soon.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, there wasn't an official word on it. At one point, I remember Castle briefly nodding over his shoulder when it was brought up... but he frequently posts opninions that don't necessarily reflect any official stances. It's part of why he's so well liked by so much of the community.
If there was an official stance before now on WW's non-rooting effect, it would create a paradox with their Exploit Policy and they couldn't refer to it now as an Exploit. It's either a Bug that they could warn us would be removed, or it's an Exploitable Feature... it's not both.
States,
Thank you for clarifying the debuff enhancement change and how it will be affected by the new defense scaling in I7. Chances are I'll be putting my debuff defenders aside for the time inbetween the current patch going live and I7's release, but I look forward to playing them again once the defense scaling is implemented bringing debuffs back into balance. However, I do have one final question, namely once I7 goes live and the new to hit equation is implemented will it also affect the usefulness of to hit debuffing in PvP?
Sorry, not good enough with these equations to understand how they affect other players. Thanks again.