To Hit Debuff Enhancement Change Explained
By
Amber_Blaze,
Posted on: 2006-04-05 16:34 in Developers' Corner
[ QUOTE ]
When looking at the graph, though, an interesting question comes up: How do you balance the two against each other when they behave so differently?
You would have to find a suitable point of intersection. It can't be too high because defense-heavy sets like FF don't have much to make up for their losses before that point. You can't make it too low, either because, although debuffing sets like Dark Miasma have much to make up for it, the curve becomes very steep very quickly after that point. It won't be long before the disparity between the two far outpaces what else the set can do.
So, then, what do you do?
[/ QUOTE ]
This also does not include things for balance such as mezzing. If Dark Night/Shadow Fall are "equal" with the three forcefield bubbles, where is Dark Miasma's *real* mezz protection?
Debuffs garner aggro. Usually a lot, but the person grabbing that aggro is incapable of wistanding *one* minion mezz which can knock of toggles, then leaving themselves (and their team) unprotected with all the angry mobs.
Yay! We are now imbalanced to ForceFields because of a shortsighted "numbers" fix.
Still here, even after all this time!
Not to mention Dark Miasma's previous nerfs to Petrifying Gaze (a hold that did no damage, thus already weaker to any controller's hold), Fearsome Stare, and Dark Servant. All because these primary powers somehow were too much like controller powers and therefore had to be weaker.
Yes, load up a primary of one AT with the types of powers from another AT and then weaken them precisely for that reason. It all makes sense!
Then, on top of that, make Dark Miasma a secondary set for other ATs and then weaken those powers even further!
Do us all a favor, reclassify Dark Miasma as a Controller set and then stop nerfing it because it's not a controller set. That would be a lot better than realizing how badly you screwed up with AT design and trying to 'fix it' by crippling it to death.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
I need to stop looking at this thread ... I'm at the point where I half-expect an announcement that Dark Miasma will become available as a Controller secondary in I-7, and of course many of the powers will be as good as or better as a controller secondary than a defender primary. 
Probably just my mood being stuck inside during a beautiful spring day, though.
[NOTE: Had not seen Zombie_Man's post before I posted. He made me feel SO much better, lol 
]
[ QUOTE ]
This also does not include things as balance such as mezzing. If Dark Night/Shadow Fall are "equal" with the three forcefield bubbles, where is Dark Miasma's *real* mezz protection?
Debuffs garner aggro. Usually a lot, but the person grabbing that aggro is incapable of wistanding *one* minion mezz which can knock of toggle, then leaving themselves (and their team) unprotected with all the angry mobs.
Yay! We are now imbalanced to ForceFields because of a shortsighted "numbers" fix.
[/ QUOTE ]
*cough*BS*cough*
First, a FF defender might have mag-based mez protection (with a sleep hole), but she only has 16% def from DB. The bubbler will be mezzed more often because Fluffy, DN, and TG debuff accuracy to a far greater extent than DB buffs defense with no stanking sleep hole. Not getting hit in the first place is superior to having low mag mez resistance.
Second, Fluffy grabs aggro and heals. When a 32+ dark defender is mezzed, Fluffy is likely to pull some of the aggro of him, and can break sleeps with a heal. Hell, Fluffy's heal alone can help a dark defender ride out a lot of mezzes.
Next up, dark has a perfectly good heal that is, in fact, so good that many dark defenders don't even bother six-slotting it. Dark miasma's heal provides a truckload of damage mitigation, and it's a very, very potent single target debuff. And did I mention that Fluffy has the same heal?
Oh ... and dark also has a hefty damage debuff in darkest night. Which Fluffy also casts. Ummm ... and dark also has high-level resistance to neg, energy, and PSI ... in a PBAoE stealth.
And dark's AoE disorient doesn't toss mobs to the winds, has a longer duration, and has a better chance to disorient.
You can, under I7, legitimately argue that FF provides better "can't hit me protection" than dark to teammates, but dark has far more powers that are of direct and substantial benefit to the defender herself. Every single power in dark is a potentially good power for soloing. Except the AoE phase, that is. That power sucks [censored].
Cripes. Some of you guys are as flakey crying dark's gimpitude as Erratic was crying rad's gimpitude.
FF boils down to its Big Three defense buffs. Force bolt is nice, and is clearly the best keepaway power in the set. Detention field has its advocates. PFF is a lifesaver (at your teammates expense). And the rest of the set is laughably bad. Errr, "situational." As _Castle_ called those powers.
But please, go back to bashing the devs.
FWIW, my bubbler (L37) dates from I1. She was in her low 20s, I believe, when badges were released. She consistently got her mez badges at lower levels than my 43 DDD -- even though the counters started ticking for her at a much later level. And I've spent much more time soloing my DDD.
PS -- you can regain the a big chunk of the to hit debuff numbers by slotting fearsome stare with accuracy debuffs. I'm not, however, defending the devs over the Schedule A / B nerf. They're clearly goofy.
I'm just sayin'.
Alright, I'm trying to wrap my head around these changes so please correct me if I'm misunderstanding.
1. Post I-7, the change will give a debuffer a worse defense versus casual gamer mobs (0s and +1s).
2. Pre I-7, the change will give a debuffer worse defense versus all mobs. The extent of this change will roughly reduce the effectiveness of all to-hit debuffs to 80% of the current value (assuming 3 SOs).
3. Doing the math for my /dark MM, it appears that the 80% reduction is roughly equivalent to an unslotted maneuvers at the even level mobs in either case (while maneuvers is not a powerful defense tool, it is a whole power).
While the net result for the change plus I-7 will make little difference for the mobs Im fighting, it will have a negative effect on the casual gamer who has trouble with 0s and +1s (and trust me they are out there). Additionally, it seems odd that the patch would not simply be held off until I-7 is ready for live since by the patch notes it doesnt appear that anything is broken to the point of breaking the game (of course that is just my opinion).
I want to come down on the side of saying all this DOOM is silly for Dark. I won't speak to the other sets; I just don't know them well enough. But I have a 49 DDD, a 34 DDC, and a 34 Ice/Dark C.
No, I don't like this. Yes, I think the combination of the purple rolloff, the schedule downgrade, and the added "rank resistance" is bad for debuffing. I think the total effect of the values are probably too strong.
But I don't buy this stuff of "Dark's gonna play second fiddle" to FF or much of anything that it didn't already play second fiddle to today.
I've been nerfed a lot on lots of characters. All of them still work. Yes, some have, IMO been nerfed too much or in ways I don't understand, and I do campaign to see those improved. I see this similarly. People have valid points and concerns, but this just doesn't rise to the level of DOOM.
Histrionics will just get the devs to tune us out.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Dubhar, I think you about got it right.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
The only way to fix it would be to exempt toHit buffs from the purple rolloff. That is the root of the entire problem.
Note, however, that the moment you do that, you are almost certainly looking at a significant nerf to the base values. They aren't going to let us floor the accuracy of +4 mobs just because we can toss 2 or 3 debuffs on them at once.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or just change the magnitude of the purple rolloff.
I suppose States can safely say it's not a nerf because nerf is somewhat subjective. Nerf typically means a crippling blow at least to me. But he can't argue that it's a numerical decrease in some cases. Whether or not it's significant is subjective.
But there is a good PR opportunity here. He can try to tweak the numbers so the numerical hit we take isn't that bad at the low end. The window is open for the devs to come in and say "we heard your concerns and decided to try and do something to alleviate them".
One thing to remember though, that is party why this is being done. They heard the cries from the DEF based sets and decided to do something about. You can argue that the implementation is messed up, but you can't really argue that "we the community" didn't ask for this (had the def bases sets not said anything I'm sure they would not have done anything).
I'm totally on board with the need for the change in mob toHit calculations. I think I understand how the rest followed from there.
But I agree. This would be a nice opportunity for a tweak that made this less ugly.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
It's time for Cryptic and NCsoft to make clear, accurate, number-based patch notes a business commitment to its clients. Because it saves time and effort, fosters good relations, and it's the heroic thing to do.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not always easy when you have only a few minutes to grab what you hope are the right numbers and create your post before having to run off to do all the other important things, all while scarfing down the last of your sandwich and drinking the last of your cold coffee. Mistakes happen when things get busy.
I think I understand how the combat modifier works in the calculation. Basically it reduces the effectiviness of the to hit debuff. There are two factors that contribute, the rank of the mob (Min, Lt, Boss & AV) and the level of the Mob. Basically the smaller the number is the more the debuff is resisted (making it less effective).
If I plug those numbers in it all seems to work (well kind of, I got a slightly different value for a +3 lt at 36.49% compared to 36.51% in the examples)
Here are the numbers:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Mob rank
Min Lt Boss AV
0 0.1 0.2 0.3
Mob level
+0 +1 +2 +3
0 0.1 0.2 0.35
</pre><hr />
To calculate the combat modifier you do the following:
(1 - Rank resistance) * (1 - Level Resistance)
These are the numbers
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Level Min Lt Boss AV
0 1 0.9 0.8 0.7
1 0.9 0.81 0.72 0.63
2 0.8 0.72 0.64 0.56
3 0.65 0.585 0.52 0.455
</pre><hr />
So as an example the to hit debuff is only 81% as effective against a +1 Lt as it is to a +0 Min and it's effect is weakened again by the +1 Lt's accuracy modifier.
The accuracy modifier is also based on rank (min 1, lt 1.15, boss 1.30) and level (+0 1, +1 1.1, +2 1.2, +3 1.3). Again multiply them together to get the actual accuracy modifier. E.g. A +2 Lt's accurary modifier would be 1.15 * 1.2. The +1 Lt's accuracy modifier would be 1.15 * 1.1 = 1.265.
So putting the numbers in (0.4375 is the quoted to hit debuff) for a +1 Lt you get:
(0.5 - (0.4375 * 0.81)) * 1.265 = 0.1843 or 18.43% (actually 0.184215625, I'm guessing it is rounded up)
Given that when you plug these numbers in we are actually a little bit worst off over all (a nerf) how about reducing the rank resistances (since these appear to be new) to 0, 0.05, 0.1 & 0.2 or even -0.05, 0.05, 0.1 & 0.2
If you work out the numbers for RI again with the new rank resistances you get the following to hit chance (after the debuff)
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Level 0
I6 I7 I7-rank res redux
Min 5.00% 6.25% 6.25%
Lt 5.66% 12.22% 9.70%
Boss 13.13% 19.5% 13.81%
Level +1
I6 I7 I7-rank res redux
Min 8.32% 11.69% 9.52%
Lt 15.85% 18.42% 15.93%
Boss 23.23% 26.46% 20.82%
Level +2
I6 I7 I7-rank res redux
Min 18.5% 18.00% 15.9%
Lt 26.03% 25.53% 23.12%
Boss 33.50% 34.32% 28.86%
Level +3
I6 I7 I7-rank res redux
Min 31.28% 28.03% 26.18%
Lt 38.31% 36.49% 34.36%
Boss 46.28% 46.05% 41.25%
</pre><hr />
If you did that or a similar tweak this stops being a slight nerf and becomes an overall buff especially at the higher +2/+3 levels where it matters most.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This also does not include things as balance such as mezzing. If Dark Night/Shadow Fall are "equal" with the three forcefield bubbles, where is Dark Miasma's *real* mezz protection?
Debuffs garner aggro. Usually a lot, but the person grabbing that aggro is incapable of wistanding *one* minion mezz which can knock of toggle, then leaving themselves (and their team) unprotected with all the angry mobs.
Yay! We are now imbalanced to ForceFields because of a shortsighted "numbers" fix.
[/ QUOTE ]
*cough*BS*cough*
First, a FF defender might have mag-based mez protection (with a sleep hole), but she only has 16% def from DB. The bubbler will be mezzed more often because Fluffy, DN, and TG debuff accuracy to a far greater extent than DB buffs defense with no stanking sleep hole. Not getting hit in the first place is superior to having low mag mez resistance.
[/ QUOTE ]
You actually don't know Dark Miasma very well, do you? You have *no* control over what Dark Servant's do. It could debuff that boss you so deperately need debuffed, or that minion right in front of it.
Twighlight Grasp debuffs Damage and Regeneration, not Accuracy or ToHit.
[ QUOTE ]
Second, Fluffy grabs aggro and heals. When a 32+ dark defender is mezzed, Fluffy is likely to pull some of the aggro of him, and can break sleeps with a heal. Hell, Fluffy's heal alone can help a dark defender ride out a lot of mezzes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dark Servant is A) Stupid B) pitiful on damage C) draws less aggro and runs off on its own.
[ QUOTE ]
Next up, dark has a perfectly good heal that is, in fact, so good that many dark defenders don't even bother six-slotting it. Dark miasma's heal provides a truckload of damage mitigation, and it's a very, very potent single target debuff. And did I mention that Fluffy has the same heal?
[/ QUOTE ]
Which it spams in its "chain of things" it does, turning off its debuff.
[ QUOTE ]
Oh ... and dark also has a hefty damage debuff in darkest night. Which Fluffy also casts. Ummm ... and dark also has high-level resistance to neg, energy, and PSI ... in a PBAoE stealth.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dark Servant is nice, but too erratic to depend on unless solo... where you don't really need it most of the time.
[ QUOTE ]
And dark's AoE disorient doesn't toss mobs to the winds, has a longer duration, and has a better chance to disorient.
[/ QUOTE ]
The only disorient in Dark Miasma is in Howling Twighlight, not something you can use regularly for *just* the disorient.
[ QUOTE ]
You can, under I7, legitimately argue that FF provides better "can't hit me protection" than dark to teammates, but dark has far more powers that are of direct and substantial benefit to the defender herself. Every single power in dark is a potentially good power for soloing. Except the AoE phase, that is. That power sucks [censored].
Cripes. Some of you guys are as flakey crying dark's gimpitude as Erratic was crying rad's gimpitude.
[/ QUOTE ]
Note I'm not saying that the Dark Debuff itself is "bad" but in its team role of "defending" the team, it falls short because of that mezz protection.
Dark Miasma only provides "fear" protection, which doesn't drop toggles. Inequality on mezz protection in this case is *very* important.
With this change, debuffers will only ever be able to *assist* a primary mitigation power set (tanks, scrappers or Sonic/FF) on large teams. They can not even attempt to fill those same roles, even if you had a couple of debuffers.
One person would activate their debuff, get hammered before the second debuff lands if your timing is not perfect and die.
Happened a lot pre-i5/ED. With lessened numbers, it will just happen more!
[ QUOTE ]
FF boils down to its Big Three defense buffs. Force bolt is nice, and is clearly the best keepaway power in the set. Detention field has its advocates. PFF is a lifesaver (at your teammates expense). And the rest of the set is laughably bad. Errr, "situational." As _Castle_ called those powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Used aggressively, they can be useful. My Robotics/FF hasn't got that far, but I'm planning on trying all of the FF powers.
[ QUOTE ]
But please, go back to bashing the devs.
[/ QUOTE ]
When they screw up? Yes, I will.
[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, my bubbler (L37) dates from I1. She was in her low 20s, I believe, when badges were released. She consistently got her mez badges at lower levels than my 43 DDD -- even though the counters started ticking for her at a much later level. And I've spent much more time soloing my DDD.
[/ QUOTE ]
You need to go back and check on your powers. You are miss-interpeting several powers.
[ QUOTE ]
PS -- you can regain the a big chunk of the to hit debuff numbers by slotting fearsome stare with accuracy debuffs. I'm not, however, defending the devs over the Schedule A / B nerf. They're clearly goofy.
I'm just sayin'.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the changes on debuffing themselves aren't that big a deal, its just a decision putting debuffs and equating themselves as "equal" to defense, when it's not.
They are an attack power, grabbing aggro that offers no real protection against mezzing.
Against *any* primary/secondary defense set it will fail if it is in near equality for the "Protection" it provides compared to FF if that is ignored.
Still here, even after all this time!
[ QUOTE ]
Not to mention Dark Miasma's previous nerfs to Petrifying Gaze (a hold that did no damage, thus already weaker to any controller's hold), Fearsome Stare, and Dark Servant. All because these primary powers somehow were too much like controller powers and therefore had to be weaker.
Yes, load up a primary of one AT with the types of powers from another AT and then weaken them precisely for that reason. It all makes sense!
Then, on top of that, make Dark Miasma a secondary set for other ATs and then weaken those powers even further!
Do us all a favor, reclassify Dark Miasma as a Controller set and then stop nerfing it because it's not a controller set. That would be a lot better than realizing how badly you screwed up with AT design and trying to 'fix it' by crippling it to death.
[/ QUOTE ]
What happens to the Masterminds and Corruptors then? Dark Miasma is a Secondary for them. :P
[ QUOTE ]
One thing to remember though, that is party why this is being done. They heard the cries from the DEF based sets and decided to do something about. You can argue that the implementation is messed up, but you can't really argue that "we the community" didn't ask for this (had the def bases sets not said anything I'm sure they would not have done anything).
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, we knew that DEF sets were overall weaker than Debuff sets at the same strength... but that's only because DEF sets have way too many holes in them(especially Ice Tankers and EA brutes) and were nerfed way too hard in Issue-5. ...But Post I-7, they're going to be too strong in areas that Debuff sets are too weak on, and we'll go round and round again on this Nerf Carousel until no one remembers why it even started.
So, if I am understanding this right, post-I7 to hit debuffs scale to be more effective against higher levels. So they have decreased how much tohit debuff we can enhance on a single power, because without it they'd become really strong.
Now, I know at first glance people want them to be really strong. But I think overall, this is going to turn out better. I haven't crunched the numbers on this, but it seems like a single debuff source is about that same as before, but that stacking several together are going to be much more effective.
Can someone with a more intimate knowledge of the stats give us the difference between an actual guy (say, /dark corruptor) using *all* his debuffs together before and after?
I'm betting it'll turn out that guys with a single debuff are slightly worse, guys with multiple debuffs running (plus maybe some force fields as well) will actually end up stacking together much better.
So that's my hypothesis, anyone want to prove me right or wrong?
[ QUOTE ]
After George Bust... err, Bush, began to use the phrase "stay the course". I pretty much learned to dislike the phrase. No difference here, except for a month or two of my Seeker Drones being less effective, then a nice large leap.
Still leaves a bitter taste, but it's betterr than what Bush force-fed us.
Now, watch as this topic explodes into a ball of political flames, and States escapes scott-free.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't LIKE ANY of GEORGE W. BUSH'S quotes: WORST PRESIDENT IN AMERICA'S HISTORY.
Amber_Blaze, thank you for the numbers and the thoughts. But I would reduce the 'Level Resistance' instead. That way, the graph would be more even no matter what level the mobs... +0 to +5(after that, the PP takes a sharp turn up, as it should)
[ QUOTE ]
Twighlight Grasp debuffs Damage and Regeneration, not Accuracy or ToHit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Twilight Grasp also debuffs toHit. It is a strong effect - I notice it often.
[ QUOTE ]
Dark Miasma only provides "fear" protection, which doesn't drop toggles. Inequality on mezz protection in this case is *very* important.
[/ QUOTE ]
While I don't argue your point here, this is true of all toggle based "Defender" sets.
[ QUOTE ]
With this change, debuffers will only ever be able to *assist* a primary mitigation power set (tanks, scrappers or Sonic/FF) on large teams. They can not even attempt to fill those same roles, even if you had a couple of debuffers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nor can they today.
Look at these I7 numbers, based off the notion that DN is a 0.185 base debuff to toHit.
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>Lev/Rnk : Normal -> Debuffed
-----------------------------
+0 Minion: 50.00% -> 20.40%
+0 LT : 57.50% -> 26.86%
+0 Boss : 65.00% -> 34.22%
+0 AV : 75.00% -> 43.92%
-----------------------------
+1 Minion: 55.00% -> 25.70%
+1 LT : 63.25% -> 32.92%
+1 Boss : 71.50% -> 41.02%
+1 AV : 82.50% -> 51.73%
-----------------------------
+2 Minion: 60.00% -> 31.58%
+2 LT : 69.00% -> 39.59%
+2 Boss : 78.00% -> 48.45%
+2 AV : 90.00% -> 60.16%
-----------------------------
+3 Minion: 65.00% -> 39.99%
+3 LT : 74.75% -> 48.86%
+3 Boss : 84.50% -> 58.49%
+3 AV : 95.00% -> 71.24%</pre><hr />
Now look at them with two casters.
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>Lev/Rnk : Normal -> Debuffed
-----------------------------
+0 Minion: 50.00% -> 5.00%
+0 LT : 57.50% -> 5.75%
+0 Boss : 65.00% -> 6.50%
+0 AV : 75.00% -> 12.84%
-----------------------------
+1 Minion: 55.00% -> 5.50%
+1 LT : 63.25% -> 6.33%
+1 Boss : 71.50% -> 10.55%
+1 AV : 82.50% -> 20.96%
-----------------------------
+2 Minion: 60.00% -> 6.00%
+2 LT : 69.00% -> 10.18%
+2 Boss : 78.00% -> 18.89%
+2 AV : 90.00% -> 30.33%
-----------------------------
+3 Minion: 65.00% -> 14.98%
+3 LT : 74.75% -> 22.98%
+3 Boss : 84.50% -> 32.48%
+3 AV : 95.00% -> 44.97%</pre><hr />
Now consider that DN is also a damage debuff. I believe it's around -35%?
So let's pick a +2 AV. One DDD would drop him to .9/.6016*(1-.35) = 43% of his damage. One character would do that for the entire team. TWO DDDs running DN would drop a +2 AV to 14.25% of his original damage output.
[ QUOTE ]
One person would activate their debuff, get hammered before the second debuff lands if your timing is not perfect and die.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, this can happen. If it happens as a matter of course you need to find some teammates who know what they're doing. I have problems when facing rooms full of stuff that mezzes, like Freakshow. AVs? I can't tell you the last time an AV looked at me sideways if I coordinated well with my team.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Ok, who screwed up the thread formatting? *chokes someone*
That was me. I fixed it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not to mention Dark Miasma's previous nerfs to Petrifying Gaze (a hold that did no damage, thus already weaker to any controller's hold), Fearsome Stare, and Dark Servant. All because these primary powers somehow were too much like controller powers and therefore had to be weaker.
Yes, load up a primary of one AT with the types of powers from another AT and then weaken them precisely for that reason. It all makes sense!
Then, on top of that, make Dark Miasma a secondary set for other ATs and then weaken those powers even further!
Do us all a favor, reclassify Dark Miasma as a Controller set and then stop nerfing it because it's not a controller set. That would be a lot better than realizing how badly you screwed up with AT design and trying to 'fix it' by crippling it to death.
[/ QUOTE ]
What happens to the Masterminds and Corruptors then? Dark Miasma is a Secondary for them. :P
[/ QUOTE ]
Their "hold" powers are unchanged at all. Only the actually debuff/buffing powers actually have a 25% difference.
Still here, even after all this time!
Thank you, Statesman, for explaining the changes fully. Not every developer has the courage to face the playerbase, but you've time and time again challenged the status quo of distancing one's self from the players, with positive results. 
@Demobot
Also on Steam
*smiles*
And, in a team with dark and FF defenders, one set will cover the other's holes.
The way it's supposed to be.
[ QUOTE ]
Now consider that DN is also a damage debuff. I believe it's around -35%?
So let's pick a +2 AV. One DDD would drop him to .9/.6016*(1-.35) = 43% of his damage. One character would do that for the entire team. TWO DDDs running DN would drop a +2 AV to 14.25% of his original damage output.
[/ QUOTE ]
Uberguy, the reason I'm stating it like this is that Debuffing is being put in the same ballpark *and* being treated the same Defense based buffing, even though there are very serious issues and differences.
(As an aside, TG may have a -ACC debuff, but I know you can't slot for it. Usually I've gotten the target's *damage* debuffed by that time and they are still hitting. So it will take some verifying on that.)
If Debuffs are being dropped/limited to within the sight of Defense (which they are) the difference of buff versus debuffing has to be looked at very hard.
Buffing on a Force Field is two castable buffs and an AOE buff w/ Mezz protection. It garners no aggro by itself.
Debuffing from a toggle-anchor debuff is a bit stronger, but not strong enough to avoid retalitory fire by itself if there is any mezzing. You can suddenly lose the entire debuff if your anchor dies and it is AOE on enemies, which might aggro extra mobs if you don't detoggle quick enough.
They are dramatically different in application, but now they are being treated more equaly *numerically* and debuffing is being made weakened so that you can't hit the minimum 5% as easily.
This is both good, and bad. Good, because it's not going to be overpowering in the cases where you do have that "primary" mitigation. It's no longer good in that you can't for sure flatten someone's chance to hit you (and their mezz) like you used to be able to do so.
I'm not saying that it's a totally bad change, but it's a change made in isolation without looking at the overall picture.
Still here, even after all this time!
[ QUOTE ]
The only way to fix it would be to exempt toHit buffs from the purple rolloff. That is the root of the entire problem.
Note, however, that the moement you do that, you are almost certainly looking at a significant nerf to the base values. They aren't going to let us floor the accuracy of +4 mobs just because we can toss 2 or 3 debuffs on them at once.
[/ QUOTE ]
The answer has... and always will, reside in a solution that gives us new Aspects to slot for. ...new Enhancements like Damage-Debuff, Range-Debuff, Recharge-Debuff, and Mez-Dur/Mag-Debuffing. As was said earlier, this isn't just a math problem, it's a tactical problem too.