To Hit Debuff Enhancement Change Explained
By
Amber_Blaze,
Posted on: 2006-04-05 16:34 in Developers' Corner
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(As an aside, TG may have a -ACC debuff, but I know you can't slot for it. Usually I've gotten the target's *damage* debuffed by that time and they are still hitting. So it will take some verifying on that.)
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Purely continuing the aside, it can indeed be slotted for that. 
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If Debuffs are being dropped/limited to within the sight of Defense (which they are) the difference of buff versus debuffing has to be looked at very hard.
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I agree, because the debuffing "rolls off" while defense no longer does.
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They are dramatically different in application, but now they are being treated more equaly *numerically* and debuffing is being made weakened so that you can't hit the minimum 5% as easily.
This is both good, and bad. Good, because it's not going to be overpowering in the cases where you do have that "primary" mitigation. It's no longer good in that you can't for sure flatten someone's chance to hit you (and their mezz) like you used to be able to do so.
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I do understand this, and agree. I do want to point out that I don't think we've been able to floor much of interest in a very long time. Not with Dark Miasma.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Twighlight Grasp debuffs Damage and Regeneration, not Accuracy or ToHit.
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Twilight Grasp also debuffs toHit. It is a strong effect - I notice it often.
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According to Ladioss_Sopp's old DM guide, TG is around a 20% To Hit Debuff.
Heroes
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Villains
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Jen Corbae
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(As an aside, TG may have a -ACC debuff, but I know you can't slot for it. Usually I've gotten the target's *damage* debuffed by that time and they are still hitting. So it will take some verifying on that.)
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Purely continuing the aside, it can indeed be slotted for that.
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Hmm. The last time I checked, you couldn't. I'm usually too worried about accuracy, healing and recharge though.
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If Debuffs are being dropped/limited to within the sight of Defense (which they are) the difference of buff versus debuffing has to be looked at very hard.
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I agree, because the debuffing "rolls off" while defense no longer does.
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Well, and the mezz inequality issues in general. I absolutely hate mezzing and its protections right now. It's a terrible system of haves and have nots.
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They are dramatically different in application, but now they are being treated more equaly *numerically* and debuffing is being made weakened so that you can't hit the minimum 5% as easily.
This is both good, and bad. Good, because it's not going to be overpowering in the cases where you do have that "primary" mitigation. It's no longer good in that you can't for sure flatten someone's chance to hit you (and their mezz) like you used to be able to do so.
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I do understand this, and agree. I do want to point out that I don't think we've been able to floor much of interest in a very long time. Not with Dark Miasma.
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I don't play my Dark Defender much anymore. And the last time I did anything other than Hamidon I faced off against Nightstar where I faceplanted opening with my debuff. She managed to one-shot me through my Shadow Fall and Darkest Night almost instantly.
As he would have done it to anyone else on the team, as there was no tank that could take her alpha well, IIRC.
Still here, even after all this time!
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It's time for Cryptic and NCsoft to make clear, accurate, number-based patch notes a business commitment to its clients. Because it saves time and effort, fosters good relations, and it's the heroic thing to do.
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It's not always easy when you have only a few minutes to grab what you hope are the right numbers and create your post before having to run off to do all the other important things, all while scarfing down the last of your sandwich and drinking the last of your cold coffee. Mistakes happen when things get busy.
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Listen. I cut everybody slack. I know people make mistakes and that everyone has a life and more important things going on than this game. BUT, this is his business. All business is a mix of providing a product or service AND marketing that product or service. They have admittedly made mistakes in both and I am duly impressed and very forgiving when people admit to their mistakes. But when you continue to make the same types of mistakes, as a business or as an individual, it gets to a point where saying "sorry" just isn't enough. When you get to that point, you need to reevaluate what you are doing and take concrete steps to improve.
Is there anyone here that disagrees with my suggestion that it's time for Cryptic and NCsoft to make clear, accurate, number-based patch notes as a business commitment to its clients.?
Do you disagree Personamorpher?
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No arguements here. I'd like to see more accurate information myself as well. I just don't know if Cryptic has the staff needed to do this at present without overworking certain individuals and causing a lot of mistakes to creep into the picture.
All these pointless and fruitless "Maybe it's this number!" "Does it do that?" "No but it might do that!" "No u r stoopid it does sumthin else" arguments are a perfect testament for why we need full disclosure of all this information from the Devs.
Honestly... what would be imbalancing about simply knowing for an officially stated fact that (hypothetically) Twilight Grasp has the following base stats:
Activation: 4 seconds/rooted
Range: 50 yards
Recharge: 10 seconds
Endurance: 14
Heal: 25% of caster Hit Points, centered at completion of animation to all teammates + caster, within 15 yards of caster
Effects: -20% ACC debuff on target with successful hit, for 5 seconds
Someone explain to me how knowing things like this breaks anything, unbalances anything, or spells any level of doom and/or trouble?
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So let's pick a +2 AV. One DDD would drop him to .9/.6016*(1-.35) = 43% of his damage. One character would do that for the entire team. TWO DDDs running DN would drop a +2 AV to 14.25% of his original damage output.
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AV's resist damage Debuffs HEAVILY, there's something definintely wrong with your math if you actually believe an AV's DPS will be put at 43% from a single Defender. You need 3 or 4 of the same kind of defenders to Floor +2 and +3 AV's, nomatter what primary you're talking about. Have you even spent any real time in all-defender Teams? Your rosey tinted glasses suggest otherwise, expecially when you consider each Defender's -ACC capacity with 3 SO's will drop by 40% as soon as this patch goes live.
I don't really trust any of the old numbers anymore and try to avoid quoting them. They got the debuff value of the easiest to test debuff of DN wrong. I would suggest we retest all the number.
Regarding this change I've seen enough numbers to be unhappy but I'll have to recalculate and do some plots myself to see how it is overall...when I feel like it. The announcment of class debuffing resistance on top of normal energy/neg-energy resists is a bit too much for now.
"Honesty is for the most part less profitable than dishonesty." -- Plato
Playing Gods (51106) - Heroic Lvl 5-20
What Rough Beast (255143) - Villainous Lvl 40-50
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Next up, dark has a perfectly good heal that is, in fact, so good that many dark defenders don't even bother six-slotting it. Dark miasma's heal provides a truckload of damage mitigation, and it's a very, very potent single target debuff. And did I mention that Fluffy has the same heal?
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Ok, now this is funny. The reason nobody ever slots Dark Servant for heal is because he never heals when you actually need it. He's so unreliable and unpredictable, why would you bother wasting slots on a fat chance?
I slot Dark Servant for ToHit debuffs because he can't turn Chill of the Night off. It's the one thing he can't mess up.
Don't count on Fluffy for anything except taking an alpha strike.
Why not six-slot Twilight Grasp? Two acc and three heals do just fine. I don't like putting a recharge enhancer in there because it's enough of a drain as is. If anything, I'd put another accuracy enhancer in there because I don't want it to miss against +2s or +3s.
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AV's resist damage Debuffs HEAVILY, there's something definintely wrong with your math if you actually believe an AV's DPS will be put at 43% from a single Defender.
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You're right. I left the resistance to the damage debuff part out, though not the toHit debuff.
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You need 3 or 4 of the same kind of defenders to Floor +2 and +3 AV's, nomatter what primary you're talking about.
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Just to be clear, I did not describe flooring the AV anywhere in my post. Nor did I use a +3 AV as my example.
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Have you even spent any real time in all-defender Teams?
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All Corruptor.
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Your rosey tinted glasses suggest otherwise, expecially when you consider each Defender's -ACC capacity with 3 SO's will drop by 40% as soon as this patch goes live.
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You would do well to realize that the accuracy numbers I used are based on I7 math, using the reduced schedule enhancers. The tables I pasted match Statesman's to the 2nd decimal place if you use the value for RI and two shcedule B toHit debuff enhancers instead of DN and 3 (which is what I did).
Your feel for what it takes to floor AVs doesn't mean much here. Your experience is all based on today's toHit calculations, which are significantly different. Stacking toHit debuffs is incredibly powerful in I7.
Correcting my earlier statements to account for 20% damage debuff resistance on a +2 AV.
So let's pick a +2 AV. One DDD would drop him to .6016/.9*(1-(0.8*.35)) = 48% of his damage. One character would do that for the entire team. TWO DDDs running DN would drop a +2 AV to 17.48% of his original damage output.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Someone explain to me how knowing things like this breaks anything, unbalances anything, or spells any level of doom and/or trouble?
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My guess it's that old habits die hard. There was a policy where numbers were not discussed, at all. Whether or not that was the correct thing to do or not is kind of a dead horse at this point because it appears that policy is being bent to extremes now. We are getting tons more information on numbers that we used to (which was none).
So why don't we have solid formulas right this instant? I dunno. Maybe the same reason we aren't getting answer very quickly to the posts. Maybe because the people who can give you the information are all doing other stuff. I don't have a good answer.
I do know that if someone gets the job to post numbers and formulas they will instantly be hit with about 100 responses from people who have questions or disagree.
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It's the one thing he can't mess up.
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Except keeping him near enough the mobs for it to do any good 
Ummm, Quizzles, re-read my quote. I said that many folks don't bother six-slotting TG; no mention of slotting Fluffy, at all, for heals. And yes, I slot TG 2 accuracies, 2 recharges, and 2 heals ... 'cause sometimes spamming a stackable single target debuff is really, really useful. Like those times I tanked Babbage and the Psy King.
FWIW, posting as BurningChick, I was the first person to suggest on the boards that we should slot Fluffy for to hit debuffs instead of recharges when the I5 nerfs hit. Most folks, if they recognize me at all, know me for [censored] about FF; but, at the time, I was in full DDD mode.
But no one listened to me 'cause I'm apparently not an authority on dark Well, that and how folks were too POed about losing their army of Fluffies to figure out how best to use one.
As NM says above, sometimes old habits die hard.
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AV's resist damage Debuffs HEAVILY, there's something definintely wrong with your math if you actually believe an AV's DPS will be put at 43% from a single Defender.
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You're right. I left the resistance to the damage debuff part out, though not the toHit debuff.
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You need 3 or 4 of the same kind of defenders to Floor +2 and +3 AV's, nomatter what primary you're talking about.
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Just to be clear, I did not describe flooring the AV anywhere in my post. Nor did I use a +3 AV as my example.
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Have you even spent any real time in all-defender Teams?
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All Corruptor.
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Your rosey tinted glasses suggest otherwise, expecially when you consider each Defender's -ACC capacity with 3 SO's will drop by 40% as soon as this patch goes live.
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You would do well to realize that the accuracy numbers I used are based on I7 math, using the reduced schedule enhancers. The tables I pasted match Statesman's to the 2nd decimal place if you use the value for RI and two shcedule B toHit debuff enhancers instead of DN and 3 (which is what I did).
Your feel for what it takes to floor foes doesn't mean much anyway. It's based on today's toHit calculations, which are significantly different. Stacking toHit debuffs is incredibly powerful in I7.
Correcting my earlier statements to account for 20% damage debuff resistance on a +2 AV.
So let's pick a +2 AV. One DDD would drop him to .6016/.9*(1-(0.8*.35)) = 48% of his damage. One character would do that for the entire team. TWO DDDs running DN would drop a +2 AV to 17.48% of his original damage output.
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What about a couple of masterminds? What about Weaken? What about flash arrow? This nerf effects a hell of alot more than just one set. I wish everyone would get off Dark's nuts and realize that there are other sets where this is a flat nerf that they don't need.
What numbers are you using for Dark Miasma?
_Castle_ quoted Darkest Night at 18.5%. Both Fearsome Stare and Twilight Grasp are about half that, Chill of the Night is about equal to Darkest Night. Tar Patch does enhance damage debuffs numbers, but the resistance debuff can also be resisted. Nobody knows whether or not it will affect the ToHit Debuff resistance.
So say you put Fluffy on the AV, keep one application of FS on him at all times (the debuff duration is unenhanceable), put Darkest Night on him, and between you and fluffy have two TGs on him at all times. Now let's say it's all 3-slotted for debuffs.
That's:
(18.5+18.5+8+8+8)1.54 = 93.94
Now let's apply level disparity and debuff resistance
93.94 * .8 * .7 = 52.606
So that is enough to floor a +2 AV's ToHit.
5% * 1.2 * 1.5 = 9% final accuracy
Now onto Damage Debuffs:
37.5 from Darkest Night
16.5% from Twilight Grasp
We'll say you have one Tar Patch down and the AV doesn't resist it.
(37.5 + 16.5 + 16.5)(1+(.3*.8))(.8)= 69.936% damage debuff
Although that's a rather extreme example. Dark Defenders have always been best against AVs, where they can pile all their debuffs onto a single target.
A Dark Defender can't provide protection that good against anything else.
I think it's also worthwhile to note that no other set can even come close to matching this sort of thing.
Quizzles, sorry, I was speaking of just using DN. Like I said, stacking the debuffs is incredibly potent in I7. I didn't know the toHit debuff values for most of the non-DN powers, so I didn't try to run an analysis.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I'm with you, Concern. I think this breaks Dark less than it does anyone else. It doesn't mean I don't think it's a problematic change even for Dark and I'd like it tweaked, but I agree with you.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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So say you put Fluffy on the AV, keep one application of FS on him at all times (the debuff duration is unenhanceable), put Darkest Night on him, and between you and fluffy have two TGs on him at all times. Now let's say it's all 3-slotted for debuffs.
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There's only one problem with this, you don't "put dark fluffy" on anything.
We have no control over it directly.
Still here, even after all this time!
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So say you put Fluffy on the AV, keep one application of FS on him at all times (the debuff duration is unenhanceable), put Darkest Night on him, and between you and fluffy have two TGs on him at all times. Now let's say it's all 3-slotted for debuffs.
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There's only one problem with this, you don't "put dark fluffy" on anything.
We have no control over it directly.
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I summon it on top of things whenever I can.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Do the debuffs from TG and FS stack?
If so, those recharges folks put into FS for stacking the fear component (the debuff lasts longer than the fear) are making dark into an even bigger monster. And if, like me, you also slot TG for recharge ...
Folks in the know have sought out DDs for AVs ever since dark miasma became playable. There often isn't time to get everything out when a team is mowing down minions and lieuts, but the longer a fight goes, the more powerful dark gets.
Edit for clarity: do FS and TG stack with themselves? I.e., can 2 FSes stack?
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Someone explain to me how knowing things like this breaks anything, unbalances anything, or spells any level of doom and/or trouble?
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My guess it's that old habits die hard. There was a policy where numbers were not discussed, at all. Whether or not that was the correct thing to do or not is kind of a dead horse at this point because it appears that policy is being bent to extremes now. We are getting tons more information on numbers that we used to (which was none).
So why don't we have solid formulas right this instant? I dunno. Maybe the same reason we aren't getting answer very quickly to the posts. Maybe because the people who can give you the information are all doing other stuff. I don't have a good answer.
I do know that if someone gets the job to post numbers and formulas they will instantly be hit with about 100 responses from people who have questions or disagree.
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My guess is that there isn't any one dev who understands all the systems and how they operate together; at least not enough to put together any sort of guide that explains all the numbers. Each dev has his/her own specialty area that he/she works on, and they don't necessarily know much about the systems they don't work with daily.
What Cryptic/NCSoft needs to do is get a team of overworked, unpaid interns to figure all this stuff out and explain it to the community. Heck, I'd be willing to do it all myself, if they'd just give me a glimpse of the server-side coding. 
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Do the debuffs from TG and FS stack?
If so, those recharges folks put into FS for stacking the fear component (the debuff lasts longer than the fear) are making dark into an even bigger monster. And if, like me, you also slot TG for recharge ...
Folks in the know have sought out DDs for AVs ever since dark miasma became playable. There often isn't time to get everything out when a team is mowing down minions and lieuts, but the longer a fight goes, the more powerful dark gets.
Edit for clarity: do FS and TG stack with themselves? I.e., can 2 FSes stack?
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I know that Twilight Grasp's damage debuff stacks with multiple applications. I would therefore assume that the toHit debuff does also.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Sorry, thats not acceptable to me, if this is an "I7" change, then put it in with I7, until then my toons have to suffer with this change because they are not able to change the HO code (which as many many people have pointed out sounds very odd).
My suggestion is keep your buff til I7.
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Hmm... But didn't Statesman say...
Statesman:
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Ideally, the Enhancement change shouldve gone hand in hand with I7. To be honest, there was an error there. Unfortunately, we discovered that we couldnt pull the change out without jeopardizing the I7 release schedule. Right now, QA (at NCSoft and Cryptic) is working away at I7 and shaking out bugs. If we were to roll back this change, our teams would need to put I7 aside and retest the current build. I made the decision to stay the course instead.
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To be honest, I'd rather them not prolong I7 longer than it already is...
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Didn't know he said that but lets also take into consideration some of the other things that he's said. For example "pets were never meant to stack"; "we won't make major changes to pve for pvp"; and my absolute fave: "we won't be making any serious changes anymore." I consider this a serious change.
So yeah, I'm soooooooo inclined to believe this nerf really affects I7's timeline. If you believe that, I have a bridge I can sell you in San Franscisco *wink*.
Thanks, NC Soft, for closing my favorite game ever without warning and with plenty of life still left in it, and thus relieving me of the burden of EVER wanting to buy, try or even hear about another game from your company. Will my decision make a dent, or persuade them in anyway, shape or form? Nope, obviously not. Don't care. NC Soft is dead to me. ~ PsyFox
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It's time for Cryptic and NCsoft to make clear, accurate, number-based patch notes a business commitment to its clients. Because it saves time and effort, fosters good relations, and it's the heroic thing to do.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not always easy when you have only a few minutes to grab what you hope are the right numbers and create your post before having to run off to do all the other important things, all while scarfing down the last of your sandwich and drinking the last of your cold coffee. Mistakes happen when things get busy.
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Listen. I cut everybody slack. I know people make mistakes and that everyone has a life and more important things going on than this game. BUT, this is his business. All business is a mix of providing a product or service AND marketing that product or service. They have admittedly made mistakes in both and I am duly impressed and very forgiving when people admit to their mistakes. But when you continue to make the same types of mistakes, as a business or as an individual, it gets to a point where saying "sorry" just isn't enough. When you get to that point, you need to reevaluate what you are doing and take concrete steps to improve.
Is there anyone here that disagrees with my suggestion that it's time for Cryptic and NCsoft to make clear, accurate, number-based patch notes as a business commitment to its clients.?
Do you disagree Personamorpher?
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Amen. Every issue there is a "typo" or an "oops." If I had a mistake every time I filed a pleading, I would be out of a JOB.
Thanks, NC Soft, for closing my favorite game ever without warning and with plenty of life still left in it, and thus relieving me of the burden of EVER wanting to buy, try or even hear about another game from your company. Will my decision make a dent, or persuade them in anyway, shape or form? Nope, obviously not. Don't care. NC Soft is dead to me. ~ PsyFox
HOw exactly is everyone getting their i7 numbers? By the way I remember the forumla
A +3 boss has a 1.15 rank mod, a 1.3 accuracy mod, rad infection does .4372*.65*.7= .2
1+.15+.3 * (.5-.2)
1.45 * (.3)
43.5% chance to hit for a +3 boss in i7
Now, before the nerf, with boss tohit and rank tohit bonus
rad infection does 0.5187*.65*.7=.256
boss bonus=15%
rank bonus=18%
50%+15%+18%-25.6%=57.4% tohit for the boss
Correct me if I'm wrong with my numbers, but this is a huge boost from now to i7.
EDIT: Saw where I messed up in one calc, but I'm not convinced about i6 numbers yet tho, pre this nerf
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It's time for Cryptic and NCsoft to make clear, accurate, number-based patch notes a business commitment to its clients. Because it saves time and effort, fosters good relations, and it's the heroic thing to do.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not always easy when you have only a few minutes to grab what you hope are the right numbers and create your post before having to run off to do all the other important things, all while scarfing down the last of your sandwich and drinking the last of your cold coffee. Mistakes happen when things get busy.
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Listen. I cut everybody slack. I know people make mistakes and that everyone has a life and more important things going on than this game. BUT, this is his business. All business is a mix of providing a product or service AND marketing that product or service. They have admittedly made mistakes in both and I am duly impressed and very forgiving when people admit to their mistakes. But when you continue to make the same types of mistakes, as a business or as an individual, it gets to a point where saying "sorry" just isn't enough. When you get to that point, you need to reevaluate what you are doing and take concrete steps to improve.
Is there anyone here that disagrees with my suggestion that it's time for Cryptic and NCsoft to make clear, accurate, number-based patch notes as a business commitment to its clients.?
Do you disagree Personamorpher?
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad