To Hit Debuff Enhancement Change Explained
By
Amber_Blaze,
Posted on: 2006-04-05 16:34 in Developers' Corner
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If you cant deliver on a promised service posted in your public forums, a promis to your custoimer, you will get berated, you have absolty no justification for FAILING to do what you said to do.
FACT: Jack said they deplorable patch notes would end
FACT: he had months
FACT: he FAILED
OPINION: HE SHOULD BE FIRED FOR INCOMPETENCE
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I think the "fact" that the *live* notes are deplorable is highly subjective. Most of the missed notes on patches have been to test, which I find as acceptable as that's part of the test process.
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you find it Acceptable that the Tester have to test the game to find out whats changed.
You find it acceptable that the staff is so imcomplent they cant even tell the peopel who volenter to test things what their testing "Bob i want you to test this microwave" "for what" "uh boss ive got cancer" "oh ya that one of the ting we wanted you to test, see our new mictrowaves cause cancer, is the cancer reacting as we expected" "how is it expected to react" "....."
3 days later "its supose to grow at a exponetial rate of 3 inches a day"
if Jack was working at my Job he be FIRED
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Because I'm sure that none of your co-workers have any failures following your orders, every single time?
The Test Server is *just* that, to all the players to test the upcoming build up. I'd say that we are doing a bang up job, as we caught a few big bugs before they could go liver (KO Blow AOE? I *WISH* that had gone live for just a week!)
There were some missing patch notes (or omitted, which is not the same thing) on the test server. Their ratio for missing these sort of things on the live server is much, much lower.
So please, get off your high horse and out of your glass house.
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when i mad a big mistake i DID get fired, actually suspeneded for about 2 months before i got my job back so Yes i expcet jack to loose his job for beinmg totally imcompenent...because in the Real World I have
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
NOTE: Consolidating replies to several people into one post.
Uber Guy
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Dysmal, I agree with you. I was specifically answering MonkeyB's commentary on how doing the same would result in loss of a job. Well, I don't think the two rally can compare.
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Agreed.
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Should they do this right? Yes. However, complaining for people to lose jobs when they're doing something they don't have to do at all is just stupid and does us no damn good. IMO. They could just not bother much. They could make all the patch notes completely abstract. They wouldn't be the first people to do so.
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Abstract like "rebalanced the kora fruit"? 
Personamorpher
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From everything I've learned about Cryptic, they seem to me to be currently understaffed. This means that a lot of people working on this game are pulling more than their fair share. It also means that a lot more mistakes are bound to crawl into the woodwork that with a fully staffed team. The effort these guys are putting forth it's a wonder that the game has turned out to be as good as it has. You really should be praising them instead of berating them. Sure, call them on their mistakes and keep them focused, but stop ripping into them when something slip by them that would have slipped by anyone working in their situation.
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The staffing situation at Cryptic is not something we can know about one way or the other. Regardless, after two plus years of running CoH, one would hope the management types would have figured out their staffing needs. After expanding CoH from North America to Europe, Launching CoV and expanding to Asia, I am somewhat dubious that Cryptic is understaffed due to anything other than choice by management. If Cryptic is running understaffed due to their own choice, and that lack of staff is resulting in poor communication to the customers, then criticism is, I think, more than fair.
As for praise, I'll praise them when, and if, its warranted. I praised Statesman for acknowledging that the situation with patch notes was not acceptable. That was a ballsy move on Jack's part, admitting an error and making a comittment to improve.
As for "ripping them when anyone in their situation would make the same mistake", we don't know their situation. Unless there are live webcams of the Cryptic office's, we can't know what their situation is in respect to work hours, staffing levels, etc. As such, its not reasonable to expect players to cut them slack based on something we simply don't know.
Futurias:
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I think the "fact" that the *live* notes are deplorable is highly subjective. Most of the missed notes on patches have been to test, which I find as acceptable as that's part of the test process.
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If I recall correctly recently we've seen a few instances of errors being reported in the test patch notes, those errors pointed out on the forums, and no change being made in the notes for live release.
I also think the patch notes for the Test Server are just as important as the Live Notes, for a variety of reasons. Firstly, without accurate, informative, and complete patch notes, it makes it much more difficult for players to know what to test, and if they are seeing the correct results. Indeed, without reliable patch notes, if a player encounters something that seems wrong on the Test server, we cannot know if that something wrong is an intentional change, bug, or something else. This can't help the test process. Nor is the time spent by CuppaJo communicating with the folks at Cryptic trying to get to the bottom of undocumented or poorly documented changes a good use of her or the people at Cryptic's time.
It seems to me that instead of involving multiple people at NCSoft and Cryptic to eventually get an accurate and complete patch note for each patch, it would be much more efficient if Cryptic just produced quality notes at the start. It would be better for "community" as well.
Community perception of the development team and "goodwill" as it were, towards Cryptic suffers everytime a patch doesnt get properly documented. We ask ourselves, why aren't things documented properly? Lack of attention to detail? An attempt to hide something? A simple copy and paste error?
Imagine, if you will, a forum where the word's "Stealth Nerf" is a thing of the past due to the detailed, complete, and accurate communication about changes from Cryptic to the playerbase. I think thats something worth striving toward.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
Before this thread becomes justifiably locked....
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Although that's a rather extreme example. Dark Defenders have always been best against AVs, where they can pile all their debuffs onto a single target.
A Dark Defender can't provide protection that good against anything else.
I think it's also worthwhile to note that no other set can even come close to matching this sort of thing.
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Actually, the Necro/Dark MM comes awfully close. While the Dark Miasma of the MM is weaker than the Dark Miasma of the Defender (because it's a secondary for the MM), that is made up for by all the -ACC that is inherent in almost every attack of all the minions. When you have eight pets with -ACC secondary effects... it tends to stack a bit.
My D3 is able to stand toe to toe with a Giant Monster or AV because of all the debuffing, but can't kill it, for lack of attacks and END. My N/D MM can also stand toe to toe with a Giant Monster or AV, and in some cases kill it, because the pets provide ENDless, non-stop attacks in addition to all the debuffing.
If the currently planned nerf hurt only my MM and not my Defender, I wouldn't complain; but the Defender doesn't have anywhere the amount of damage and mez mitigation that the MMs' pets provide. The Defender is severely gimped WRT soloing as compared to all the other ATs.
On top of that, the Defender's inherent power is unusable soloing. OK, Ok, we get it Statesman, you don't think its fun to play a Defender unless your defending anyone but yourself.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
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Should they do this right? Yes. However, complaining for people to lose jobs when they're doing something they don't have to do at all is just stupid and does us no damn good. IMO. They could just not bother much. They could make all the patch notes completely abstract. They wouldn't be the first people to do so.
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Abstract like "rebalanced the kora fruit"?
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Yeah, that's sadly a great example. Not sure where that came from, unless it was a placeholder that got left in. My vague understanding is that the autogenerated notes are some sort of tagged code comment.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I'm just confused as to why, under any set of circumstances, Flash Arrow has to perform any worse than it currently does.
Not that anyone will notice; it's the principle of the thing.
Here's a question. I know that Futurias and Ilr have touched on this, but it really hasn't come up specifically.
In the past I have seen suggestions that mobs resist debuffs as a function of their damage resistance. This would relate to the specific example of Nightstar being largely unaffected by Darkest Night, possibly as a function of having a high DR to negative energy.
Do we have any verification or quantification of this effect? It would be fairly easy to test in the arena using a Dark Amor Scrapper, and maybe a /Regen Scrapper as a non-resistant damage soak. (In fact, /DA would be decent for testing with Rad Infection, too).
In particular I ask because this would be a good reason to shrink the rank-dependant auto-resistance to toHit debuffs - AVs that already have damage-type-based resistance will have really severe overall resistance if this is the case.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Here's a question. I know that Futurias and Ilr have touched on this, but it really hasn't come up specifically.
In the past I have seen suggestions that mobs resist debuffs as a function of their damage resistance. This would relate to the specific example of Nightstar being largely unaffected by Darkest Night, possibly as a function of having a high DR to negative energy.
Do we have any verification or quantification of this effect? It would be fairly easy to test in the arena using a Dark Amor Scrapper, and maybe a /Regen Scrapper as a non-resistant damage soak. (In fact, /DA would be decent for testing with Rad Infection, too).
In particular I ask because this would be a good reason to shrink the rank-dependant auto-resistance to toHit debuffs - AVs that already have damage-type-based resistance will have really severe overall resistance if this is the case.
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You'd need to use a controller, Mastermind or Corruptor. Defenders debuffs are "unresistable" in PvP IIRC.
Still here, even after all this time!
Ahh, that's a good point. I guess this would have to be villains to have the breakdown I described - Dark Miasma Corruptor/MM, Dark Amor Brute, and maybe /Regen Stalker
(All I'm going for with the /Regen is someone who can easily soak the test damage and doesn't have passive resistances. Similar with the Dark Armor, their DR is fully togglable, and their resistance to negative can be quite significant. I'm focusing on Darkest Night because it handily would let us test both -toHit and -damage.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Regen's only "resistance" power is a passive, i.e. Resilience.
Sure, but they don't resist negative or energy with that. 
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Got the mods pulling down posts you don't like, I see.
Don't like what the customers have to say, just shut them up, eh?
Nice.
They have mods removing inflamtory, rude remarks. Had a post of your tone been directed at me, at the President of the US, or at someone you teamed with, they would have removed it just the same.
I have beat the devs up plenty on missing patch notes, changes I thought were wrong-headed, and probably other things I can't remember. I always did it in a civil tone. I've never had a post removed.
Honestly, your behavior is quite childish. You're not doing yourself any favors. By acting that way you almost guarantee that your viewpoint will be largely ignored, because you will be seen as an unreasonable extremist.
You can be negative without being unreasonable.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
A BIG Thank You to the Moderators for just deleting the Flaming posts and not Locking the whole thing
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Here's a question. I know that Futurias and Ilr have touched on this, but it really hasn't come up specifically.
In the past I have seen suggestions that mobs resist debuffs as a function of their damage resistance. This would relate to the specific example of Nightstar being largely unaffected by Darkest Night, possibly as a function of having a high DR to negative energy.
Do we have any verification or quantification of this effect? It would be fairly easy to test in the arena using a Dark Amor Scrapper, and maybe a /Regen Scrapper as a non-resistant damage soak. (In fact, /DA would be decent for testing with Rad Infection, too).
In particular I ask because this would be a good reason to shrink the rank-dependant auto-resistance to toHit debuffs - AVs that already have damage-type-based resistance will have really severe overall resistance if this is the case.
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I'm very sure that ToHit debuff resistance is completely independent of damage resistance. I soloed Black Swan with my Dark/Rad. She was quite affected by my ToHit Debuffs, even though my damage debuffs did almost nothing to her.
All the incarnations of Nemesis, however, are 100% resistance to ToHit Debuffs. Yeah, my attempt at soloing him didn't go very well.
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You're not doing yourself any favors. By acting that way you almost guarantee that your viewpoint will be largely ignored, because you will be seen as an unreasonable extremist.
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As if it makes any difference. This isn't about the paying customers. It's all about Emmert's "vision", his ego, and his idea of "fun."
You can all keep sucking up. I won't.
Crud. My posts about debuffing and how it is being "resisted" instead of capped got nuked because of the flamewar.
Let me restate my concerns here, hopefully in an intelligible manner.
A) Debuffs are being made to scale and be roughly as effective as Defense in i7, the "defense scaling fix". I am worried that even though Debuffing is an attack, draws aggro and suffers toggle-anchor death, it is not enough "better" than defense to be used in place of Defense sets that are much harder to *de*toggle.
B) Bosses and Archvillains are being set up to resist debuffing much more than Defense would scale. This makes me think that the developers feel that debuffs are far more powerful than defense and want to limit it in some way, but the method actually hurts the individual player and does not actually stop heavily stacking. I'd recommend a stacking cap instead of resistance, so that Boss and AV fights are always more challenging.
I might have some more points, but I'm a bit braindead now.
Still here, even after all this time!
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Here's a question. I know that Futurias and Ilr have touched on this, but it really hasn't come up specifically.
In the past I have seen suggestions that mobs resist debuffs as a function of their damage resistance. This would relate to the specific example of Nightstar being largely unaffected by Darkest Night, possibly as a function of having a high DR to negative energy.
Do we have any verification or quantification of this effect? It would be fairly easy to test in the arena using a Dark Amor Scrapper, and maybe a /Regen Scrapper as a non-resistant damage soak. (In fact, /DA would be decent for testing with Rad Infection, too).
In particular I ask because this would be a good reason to shrink the rank-dependant auto-resistance to toHit debuffs - AVs that already have damage-type-based resistance will have really severe overall resistance if this is the case.
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There are already two defender powers that we know for a fact functions differently based on damage resists. Siphon power and Fullcrum Shift both require a to-hit check and I believe are quantified as energy attacks for this purpose. It stands to reason that any other power that requires a to-hit check along with it's debuff component is similarly affected but most debuffs do not require a to hit check so they likely don't have any resistable effect because they had no need of one.
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A) Debuffs are being made to scale and be roughly as effective as Defense in i7, the "defense scaling fix". I am worried that even though Debuffing is an attack, draws aggro and suffers toggle-anchor death, it is not enough "better" than defense to be used in place of Defense sets that are much harder to *de*toggle.
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Well actually, ToHit Debuffs won't be anywhere near as effective as Defense in I7.
That's Rad Infection VS 40% defense (approximately what an FF defender can give to their teammates) against LTs.
I like THIS one better, Mr.Q!
It has the I-7, no Nerf line in it 
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A) Debuffs are being made to scale and be roughly as effective as Defense in i7, the "defense scaling fix". I am worried that even though Debuffing is an attack, draws aggro and suffers toggle-anchor death, it is not enough "better" than defense to be used in place of Defense sets that are much harder to *de*toggle.
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Well actually, ToHit Debuffs won't be anywhere near as effective as Defense in I7.
That's Rad Infection VS 40% defense (approximately what an FF defender can give to their teammates) against LTs.
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That's basically showing that debuffs are going to be incredibly inneffective in the future.
Well, except for grabbing large ammounts of aggro and then you dying.
Still here, even after all this time!
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You're not doing yourself any favors. By acting that way you almost guarantee that your viewpoint will be largely ignored, because you will be seen as an unreasonable extremist.
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As if it makes any difference. This isn't about the paying customers. It's all about Emmert's "vision", his ego, and his idea of "fun."
You can all keep sucking up. I won't.
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Still waiting for someting useful out of you beyond saying that someone is incompetent or someone else is a suck up. Unless you're telling me that insults will accomplish something useful, if so, please tell me what. I have a few guesses.
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Before this thread becomes justifiably locked....
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Although that's a rather extreme example. Dark Defenders have always been best against AVs, where they can pile all their debuffs onto a single target.
A Dark Defender can't provide protection that good against anything else.
I think it's also worthwhile to note that no other set can even come close to matching this sort of thing.
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Actually, the Necro/Dark MM comes awfully close. While the Dark Miasma of the MM is weaker than the Dark Miasma of the Defender (because it's a secondary for the MM), that is made up for by all the -ACC that is inherent in almost every attack of all the minions. When you have eight pets with -ACC secondary effects... it tends to stack a bit.
My D3 is able to stand toe to toe with a Giant Monster or AV because of all the debuffing, but can't kill it, for lack of attacks and END. My N/D MM can also stand toe to toe with a Giant Monster or AV, and in some cases kill it, because the pets provide ENDless, non-stop attacks in addition to all the debuffing.
If the currently planned nerf hurt only my MM and not my Defender, I wouldn't complain; but the Defender doesn't have anywhere the amount of damage and mez mitigation that the MMs' pets provide. The Defender is severely gimped WRT soloing as compared to all the other ATs.
On top of that, the Defender's inherent power is unusable soloing. OK, Ok, we get it Statesman, you don't think its fun to play a Defender unless your defending anyone but yourself.
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Actually, my Kinetic defender appeared to be the best debuffer of all my debuff sets when faced with a single target. The only exception was the female AV mentioned a while back (NightSong, Nightwing?). With all the other AV fights I was able to survive the nuke attacks against an AV or Giant Monster by debuffing like a maniac while my team dished out the damage. In fact I would steal many kills by timing a well placed snipe near the end. This was back in the perma hasten days though so I had very little downtime in my debuff attacks.
Strictly speaking, it looks to me like that should be 36%, 37% if you assume +3 SOs.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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That's Rad Infection VS 40% defense (approximately what an FF defender can give to their teammates) against LTs.
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Is that the total damage mitigation of 3 combined Force Field powers or just a single FF power? If it's all 3 or more likely the combination of 2 FF powers I find the comparison inaccurate from the start.
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If you cant deliver on a promised service posted in your public forums, a promis to your custoimer, you will get berated, you have absolty no justification for FAILING to do what you said to do.
FACT: Jack said they deplorable patch notes would end
FACT: he had months
FACT: he FAILED
OPINION: HE SHOULD BE FIRED FOR INCOMPETENCE
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I think the "fact" that the *live* notes are deplorable is highly subjective. Most of the missed notes on patches have been to test, which I find as acceptable as that's part of the test process.
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you find it Acceptable that the Tester have to test the game to find out whats changed.
You find it acceptable that the staff is so imcomplent they cant even tell the peopel who volenter to test things what their testing "Bob i want you to test this microwave" "for what" "uh boss ive got cancer" "oh ya that one of the ting we wanted you to test, see our new mictrowaves cause cancer, is the cancer reacting as we expected" "how is it expected to react" "....."
3 days later "its supose to grow at a exponetial rate of 3 inches a day"
if Jack was working at my Job he be FIRED
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Because I'm sure that none of your co-workers have any failures following your orders, every single time?
The Test Server is *just* that, to all the players to test the upcoming build up. I'd say that we are doing a bang up job, as we caught a few big bugs before they could go liver (KO Blow AOE? I *WISH* that had gone live for just a week!)
There were some missing patch notes (or omitted, which is not the same thing) on the test server. Their ratio for missing these sort of things on the live server is much, much lower.
So please, get off your high horse and out of your glass house.
Still here, even after all this time!