To Hit Debuff Enhancement Change Explained
By
Amber_Blaze,
Posted on: 2006-04-05 16:34 in Developers' Corner
I was once headsplittered by battle maiden for something like 75 damage, as a defender 
Here's a rather shocking outcome. It does look like bubble defenders might return to their old glory days.
I'm going off hero builder numbers for FF here, so if these are wrong, someone please correct me.
Deflection/Insulation Shield: 14% defense
Dispersion Bubble: 9.25% defense
3 even-level Schedule B SOs is a modifier of 1.573, for a total of (0.140+0.925)*1.573 = 36.57% defense.
A +3 Archvillain has a 97.5% accuracy (capped, of course, at 95%). This is obtained through a rank modifier of 1.5 and a level modifier of 1.3.
1.3 * 1.5 * 0.5 = 0.975
Now, defense is directly subtracted from the base toHit.
1.3 * 1.5 * (0.5-.366) = 0.262
1 - 0.262/0.95 = 72% reduction in hit rate. This is an amazing reduction.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Oh, yes. The improvement to Defense is going to be very, very appreciated. I'm just seeing debuff changes that I don't think were fully thought out.
Still here, even after all this time!
[ QUOTE ]
3 even-level Schedule B SOs is a modifier of 1.573, for a total of (0.140+0.925)*1.573 = 36.57% defense.
<snip>
= 72% reduction in hit rate. This is an amazing reduction.
[/ QUOTE ]
Remember the old 1% defense = 2% resistance? 36.6% * 2 = 73.2%, so your 72% reduction in to hit chance is just about perfectly in line. Whether it's too powerful is a different question.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(Base To Hit + To Hit Buffs - (To Hit Debuffs * Combat Mod) Defense) capped at 5% or 95% * Accuracy (capped at 5% or 95%, again)
[/ QUOTE ]
OK, here. Why must this be so very complicated? Having two different types of to-hits is a mess to keep track of, especially in terms of tryint to buff both.
If you fold Accuracy and ToHit into the same stat, and then divide the sum Accuracy by 1 minus the defense, would something like this
(Base Accuracy + Accuracy Buffs - (Accuracy Debuffs * Combat Mod))/(1-Defense), final result capped at 5% or 95%
not be a lot more intuitive? It would eliminate the annoyance of two different beneficial stats to keep track of, particularly when you don't have a way to increase one of them, and would make Defense do exactly what it is described as doing - before hitting one of the caps, 25% Defense would make 25% of the attacks that would have otherwise hit you now miss, reducing a sum 40% chance to-hit to 30%, and 80% to 60%, and 50% to 37.5%, and so on and so forth. Defense would be statistically the same in equal amounts as Resistance, and apply equally well regardless of mob rank and level - scaling perfectly.
The only downside I can see would be needing to rebalance the numbers for Defense powers, but a simple doubling would probably take care of it. And everything would be a lot simpler.
[/ QUOTE ]
The reason that there is both a To Hit and an Accuracy, is that this offers a finer granuality of control. In other words, it allows the devs to have base To Hits for each archetype, and also allows for two different methods of altering a character's chance to attack successfully.
Just chiming in to congratulate Statesman on having found another way to lower the effectiveness of Defenders, the supposedly most balanced AT, without actually touching the AT itself. Or offering any kind of balancing factor. AGAIN.
Yes, I realize that the new formula actually makes To-Hit DeBuffs better against +3s. But a lot of people like to actually solo their Defenders or play in smaller groups. Not everyone wants to run 8 man teams on Invincible.
Thanks a whole bloody lot.
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
Here's a slightly different view on all this.
Chart
This chart shows the reduction in hit rate achieved versus AVs of levels +0 through +3. By reduction, I mean:
(1 - after/before)
Line "FF Ratio" is a FF Defender using Shields and Dispersion Bubble. Defense is very constant. The little dip you see at +3 is because +3 AVs actually hit the 95% cap.
Line "RI Ratio" is Radiation Infection. It hammers a +0 AV pretty well, but tails off quite severely by +3. (Note, however, that it tails off even worse today.)
Line "DN Ratio" is the same thing for Darkest Night. DN is only 60% as strong a toHit debuff as RI, so it's no surprise that this line is quite a bit lower.
Of interest to many in this thread is line "DM Ratio". Here are the assumptions I used in this line.
*) Darkest Night is on the AV, 3-SO slotted for toHit debuff.
*) Fearsome Stare and Twilight Grasp are both a debuff of 0.1. I'm guessing at that number. It lines up with the notion of a 20% debuff.
*) FS is 2-slotted for toHit debuff, and TG is 1-slotted (this is how my DDD is slotted).
*) FS and TG are being cycled so that one application of each is on the AV at all times.
As mentioned earlier, FF is the clear winner, being better than anyone else except DM in full spam mode against a +0 AV.
Of interest is that Dark Miasma can mitigate significantly better than Rad with RI alone. (Caveat: I am not including Lingering Radiation's slow in this analysis.) If you consider that both DN and TG are also damage debuffs (that stack), the mitigation is pretty damn impressive. This lends some credence to the notion that Rad Emission is more of an offensive-oriented set, btter at increasing team damage output than decreasing foe output. (Rad could be buffing team damage with both Accelerate Metabolism and Enervating Field, as well as debuffing mob defense with RI).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
In your "DM Ratio" you didn't take into acount Tar Patch in your spam cycle, which has -RES(for increased damage done) and -DAM(for reduced damage taken)
It has -Speed, but does it have -REC too?
I am unaware of Tar Patch debuffing damage output of foes. I believe it only applies -speed (not -Recharge) and -DR (which has the effect of multiplying damage).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
I am unaware of Tar Patch debuffing damage output of foes. I believe it only applies -speed (not -Recharge) and -DR (which has the effect of multiplying damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not directly, but if you get people to chase you around in the goo, there damage is debuffed because they won't attack until they get somewhere or tarpatch wears off (this was the only way I could solo bosses that mezzed at one point. I'd drop TarPatch in between me and it, snipe and hopefully wake up before they get their mitts on me.)
Still here, even after all this time!
I have no idea how I'd ever quantify that. Not all foes will behave that way these days. Anyone with a ranged attack will happily stand in the Tar Patch and shoot at you.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Rad could be buffing team damage with both Accelerate Metabolism and Enervating Field, as well as debuffing mob defense with RI
Isn't RI also a defense debuff and EF also a damage debuff?
These comparisons are all going to be horribly skewed in favor of FF because you are comparing only the amount of defense (or to hit debuff) that these sets have which is about the only thing FF can do.
You are correct about EF! Again, my thinking on what they do was colored by how I tend to use them. I will amend my previous post.
I mentioned RI being a defense debuff in the very text you quoted.
As to the results being skewed, honestly I'm trying to find out if Rad and Dark compare favorably to FF. Right now, from a pure defense perspective, FF is king. It's hard to skew things in favor of the underdogs. 
I'm actually putting together a calculation of the total mitigation of Rad and DM (and now my Rad one will be less wrong since I'll remember the damage debuff on RI), so I can compare that to FF.
Things I will not be including in at least the graphs are the damage increase both sets provide, and the "AI recharge debuff" that Futurias mentioned. Those things matter, and I'll certainly enumerate them, but I have no clear way to show them on the same graphs that I can show damage mitigation versus foe level.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I cot my info from COH/COV Character builder by SherkSilver. It lists Tar Patch as having Debuff: -Speed(foe) Debuff: -Dmg, -Res(all), and we all know that the Char bulder programs are never wrong...
I'm pretty sure that Tar Patch doesn't do -dam, but I'd be happy to see it verified. I am still at work, so I can't verify it myself.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
I am unaware of Tar Patch debuffing damage output of foes. I believe it only applies -speed (not -Recharge) and -DR (which has the effect of multiplying damage).
[/ QUOTE ]
Tar Patch has no -damage in it, but the -resistance does increase the -damage that other powers provide.
Darkest Night = 37.5% damage debuff
Tar Patch = 30% resistance debuff
Darkest Night + Tar Patch = 48.75% damage debuff
W O W
Synergy at work
Thanx, Mr.Q 
As to the results being skewed, honestly I'm trying to find out if Rad and Dark compare favorably to FF. Right now, from a pure defense perspective, FF is king. It's hard to skew things in favor of the underdogs.
Don't forget the fact that both Rad and Dark have a heal (dark has two if you count fluffy which also adds significantly to the other aspects of the set) and Rad also has the AE hold power while Dark and FF both have single target holds or a reasonable facsimilie and I believe Dark has a fear (correct me if I'm wrong about it being the primary).
To try to put it into math terms. You have an equation that looks something like: Ax + By +Cz = D. If I keep D constant I can still have many variables to account for with A B C x y and z that will come to the same value. FF just happens to have most of D coming from just one combination of variables while Dark and Rad are a bit more spread out and as such a bit more subtle.
What it really means is that FF needs more utility in its other powers rather than pretty much nothing but defense.
Well, that does depend. While it says nothing about how interesting FF is to play, the numbers it offers through sheer defense are very impressive. When you account for the fact that this includes indirect protection from secondary effects (at least those that require a toHit roll), it's hardly sucky in I7.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Just to point something out ...
To hit debuff enhancements were nerfed so that the debuffs' overall level of effectiveness in I7 would be (somewhat) consistent with with the I6 level.
With that in mind ... how many folks expect FF's def bonus to remain the same?
The small bubbles at ... 12.5 ... or even 10? Or Dispersion bubble at 7.5? Much lower than 7.5, and it becomes debatable whether or not DB's worth slotting.
Just something to ponder.
That did occur to me. They're not much above the benefits of a SR Scrapper's armors, and they do have to cast them individually other than DB. Given that the other sets are tossing around Tanker-sized mitigation once the full set is brought to bear, I'm not sure there's much cause for concern. We'll see though.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
OK, here are my attempts to meassure "defensive" mitigation. I've tried to calculate the combined effect of toHit and damage debuffs for Radiation Emission and Dark Miasma, as well as the effect of the DR debuffs in EF and TP on the damage debuff. (I am assuming it does not effect the toHit debuff.)
I express everything in terms of "Mitigation". This number is the final percent of foe's damage the debuffing will remove.
For accuracy, mitigation is obviously an average value. It's obtained simply by dividing debuffed accuracy by "normal" accuracy, and subtracting that from 100%. Someone who hits 80% of the time normally debuffed to hit 25% of the time has had (1-.25/.8) or 68.75% of their damage mitigated.
For damage debuffs, I have used builder numbers. I have Darkest Night at 37.5% and Enervating Field at 32.5%. I have increased both of these by the damage boost of EF and Tar Patch, which based on some forum searching I believe to both be 30%.
Here are the results:
Force Field
Pure defense mitigation. Assumed 14%+9.25% defense, 3-slotted with defense SOs.
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>--------------------
+0 Minion: 73.145%
+0 LT : 73.145%
+0 Boss : 73.145%
+0 AV : 73.145%
--------------------
+1 Minion: 73.145%
+1 LT : 73.145%
+1 Boss : 73.145%
+1 AV : 73.145%
--------------------
+2 Minion: 73.145%
+2 LT : 73.145%
+2 Boss : 73.145%
+2 AV : 73.145%
--------------------
+3 Minion: 73.145%
+3 LT : 73.145%
+3 Boss : 73.145%
+3 AV : 72.438%</pre><hr />
No surprise here. This is exactly what the defense scaling is supposed to do. Average mitigation is constant (and nice and high).
Radiation Emission
Assumed that the user is hitting the foes with both Enervating Field and Radiation Infection. EDIT: I have changed this to reflect the fact that EF does not effectively buff its own damage debuff. (I suspect this is similar to how Hasten affects its own recharge, but it's base recharge is set for a round number even with its affect accounted for.)
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>+0 Minion: 93.250%
+0 LT : 92.225%
+0 Boss : 85.589%
+0 AV : 78.953%
--------------------
+1 Minion: 91.850%
+1 LT : 85.590%
+1 Boss : 79.330%
+1 AV : 73.070%
--------------------
+2 Minion: 84.201%
+2 LT : 78.381%
+2 Boss : 72.561%
+2 AV : 66.741%
--------------------
+3 Minion: 71.529%
+3 LT : 66.488%
+3 Boss : 61.448%
+3 AV : 55.260%</pre><hr />
NOTE: In reality a Rad Emission Defender (or Corruptor) can also be slowing their foes recharge rate, which has a meaningful but complicated effect on damage mitigation. Also, a Rad character is significantly increasing the rate at which his/her team (or pets, or self) is killing things through Accelerate Metabolism, the defense debuff in RI, and the DR debuff in EF. A Rad character can also provide moderate healing.
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>+0 Minion: 94.225%
+0 LT : 93.348%
+0 Boss : 87.670%
+0 AV : 81.993%
--------------------
+1 Minion: 92.861%
+1 LT : 87.378%
+1 Boss : 81.894%
+1 AV : 76.410%
--------------------
+2 Minion: 85.866%
+2 LT : 80.660%
+2 Boss : 75.453%
+2 AV : 70.246%
--------------------
+3 Minion: 73.816%
+3 LT : 69.181%
+3 Boss : 64.545%
+3 AV : 58.855%</pre><hr />
Dark Miasma
I had to make this one a little different from the others because of the practical reality of how the powers work. In this chart, the Minion and LT lines assume that the mobs are being affected by Tar Patch, Darkest Night (3-slotted debuff), and Fearsome Stare (2-slotted debuff). The Boss and AV lines additionally assume that they are also constantly affected by one Twilight Grasp (1-slotted debuff). I am not certain of the damage debuff in TG - I think it is 25%, but that may only be the Corruptor version. I went with that number for these calculations.
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>+0 Minion: 93.331%
+0 LT : 88.873%
+0 Boss : 96.122%
+0 AV : 92.283%
--------------------
+1 Minion: 87.815%
+1 LT : 83.421%
+1 Boss : 92.023%
+1 AV : 88.057%
--------------------
+2 Minion: 81.450%
+2 LT : 77.205%
+2 Boss : 86.924%
+2 AV : 82.916%
--------------------
+3 Minion: 70.313%
+3 LT : 66.450%
+3 Boss : 77.215%
+3 AV : 72.626%</pre><hr />
NOTE: In reality, a Dark Miasma character is providing more mitigation through the use of Fearsome Stare, which will cause most minions and LTs to stop fighting, and possibly Petrifying Gaze. Dark Pit can incapacitate minions for added control. I also did not include the additional debuffing possible from Dark Servant. Dark Servant can be summoned on top of foes, and if slotted for toHitDebuff he seems to compare favorably with Darkest Night for that purpose. Twilight Grasp also provides major healing (and is also used by Dark Servant also further debuffing that foe's damage).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
EF does not buff its own damage debuff. They are both measured to be 22%.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, my Kinetic defender appeared to be the best debuffer of all my debuff sets when faced with a single target. The only exception was the female AV mentioned a while back (NightSong, Nightwing?). With all the other AV fights I was able to survive the nuke attacks against an AV or Giant Monster by debuffing like a maniac while my team dished out the damage. In fact I would steal many kills by timing a well placed snipe near the end. This was back in the perma hasten days though so I had very little downtime in my debuff attacks.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've done nearly the same thing with my Dark Miasma Defender. Stacking Twighlights Grasp on top of Darkest Night is very effective against AVs.
I've gotten AVs down to the old 10% damage cap before.
Regen Scrappers and Invulnerble Tanks are like "What the? Why isn't this killing us?"
Still here, even after all this time!