To Hit Debuff Enhancement Change Explained
By
Amber_Blaze,
Posted on: 2006-04-05 16:34 in Developers' Corner
I actually can't get Geko's math on DR debuffs against foes with nonzero DR to work based on testing I did with BP zombies, Dark Blast, and Tar Patch. I know he said his math was inexact. I remember a thread (probably long gone) where people were discussing this and coming up with forumulas for it.
Anyway, we're now firmly off topic here. 
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
I was able to manage a test stacking two Tar Patches of my own, an the before/after numbers worked out to a ratio of 1.60. If they used to stack in a nonlinear fashion, the devs changed it without noting it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can't be sure if I was remember 3 or 4 stacking, I was pretty sure it was 3 stacking, as you could only get the 4th tar patch to stack about 1/2 of the time.
It might be like you guys are explaining. I just remember being able to more than double my teams damage. Made AV fights a lot more reasonable for Duos.
Still here, even after all this time!
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What it really means is that FF needs more utility in its other powers rather than pretty much nothing but defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
Technically, it has other utility powers. They are just all the same "one-trick pony" that no one really likes, even if they can be effective.
Still here, even after all this time!
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There's a difference.
This isn't anyone's job. There are two community reps: Cuppa and Awry. No one else has to come here and tell us squat.
That they do rocks. That they don't get it right sucks. That they have promised to get it right and not done so sucks. I want it to get better, bad and right now. But it just ain't their damn job.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah its not CJ's or Awry's job but it is STATESMAN's. And he was whom I was referring to.
Thanks, NC Soft, for closing my favorite game ever without warning and with plenty of life still left in it, and thus relieving me of the burden of EVER wanting to buy, try or even hear about another game from your company. Will my decision make a dent, or persuade them in anyway, shape or form? Nope, obviously not. Don't care. NC Soft is dead to me. ~ PsyFox
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Dysmal, I agree with you. I was specifically answering MonkeyB's commentary on how doing the same would result in loss of a job. Well, I don't think the two rally can compare.
Should they do this right? Yes. However, complaining for people to lose jobs when they're doing something they don't have to do at all is just stupid and does us no damn good. IMO. They could just not bother much. They could make all the patch notes completely abstract. They wouldn't be the first people to do so.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think they do compare, a job is a job. If you worked at burger king and you always messed up orders, then you would be FIRED after enough people complained. If you were a mechanic and you mucked up people's engine's time and time again you would be fired. How much different is it here? They don't clock in and out at Cryptic? They don't ever fire anyone (probably not the head honcho lol)?
IMO, it does compare to any other job. If you mess up repeatedly, something needs to change.
Thanks, NC Soft, for closing my favorite game ever without warning and with plenty of life still left in it, and thus relieving me of the burden of EVER wanting to buy, try or even hear about another game from your company. Will my decision make a dent, or persuade them in anyway, shape or form? Nope, obviously not. Don't care. NC Soft is dead to me. ~ PsyFox
[ QUOTE ]
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So yeah, I'm soooooooo inclined to believe this nerf really affects I7's timeline. If you believe that, I have a bridge I can sell you in San Franscisco *wink*.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm a professional software developer, and depending on their build protocols and source control tools, rolling back one specific change could indeed throw the schedule off. I don't know any of their specifics, but it's believable.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd be inclined to believe any other dev that told me that. Fool me once, shame on you, Fool me twice....
Thanks, NC Soft, for closing my favorite game ever without warning and with plenty of life still left in it, and thus relieving me of the burden of EVER wanting to buy, try or even hear about another game from your company. Will my decision make a dent, or persuade them in anyway, shape or form? Nope, obviously not. Don't care. NC Soft is dead to me. ~ PsyFox
[ QUOTE ]
I think they do compare, a job is a job. If you worked at burger king and you always messed up orders, then you would be FIRED after enough people complained. If you were a mechanic and you mucked up people's engine's time and time again you would be fired.
[/ QUOTE ] They might fire the emplyee, but would they fire the Supervisor of that employee? Statesman is a supervisor, resposible for many facets of the business. While lack of notes may be bad, he is also resposible for content, code, personel, and lord knows what else... All of it more or less important than bad notes. But unless it's game breaking(and I don't think bad notes are), then he would have to blow in in some other areas befor he would get terminated.Massive defective code? Yes! Inapropreate content? Yes!! But as long as you and I can log in and play, no...
Exactly.
Their jobs are not, specifically, to provide us with patch notes, or explanations, or posts here on the forums. That is not anyone here's JOB except (possibly) for Cuppa and Awry, who work for NCSorft, not Cryptic.
I might be annoyed with a fast food employee that told me they were going to speed up service, or increase the amount of meat in their burgers, or add new menu items, if those things didn't materialize. I might even stop going to that place, if those things were important to me. But unless providing those things (and telling me details about them) was somewhere in the obvious job description of that employee I wouldn't assume I could get them fired over it.
They told us they'd do better patch notes. They should. They should keep promises if theywant happy customers. But nowhere is it written they even need to provide patch notes. It makes good sense that they do, but it just doesn't rise to the level some people try to take it here.
It's simple. If you can't stand the game's direction or changes, it's better if you just leave it behind. The level of stress some of this seems to cause some of you just isn't worth it. It's a video game. I understand better than some how invested we can get in a game like this. But if it makes you this unhappy, walk away. At least for a while.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
NOW can we please get back on topic? From the numbers presented in this thread, to me it doesnt look like keeping the To-Hit DeBuff enhancements Schl A would be game breaking.
D I S C U S S
Global defense buff
Global Defense change is more appropriate.
Global tohit buff to most Mobs
Their To-Hit is being lowered while their Accuracy is being buffed.
Schedual A to Schedual B for enhancers
One enhancement was moved.
Overall slower leveling speed ...
I really don't see where the heck this one came from.
non defense sets are gettin ~3-5% more damage incoming.
From what? The overall accuracy/to-hit from a mob isn't changing only the way the values are calculated is being adjusted. If you had no defense or to-hit buff you will notice no change. If you had a small defense you will notice a greater effect versus higher ranking and higher level foes.
Server will have to provide larger calculations for combat increasing lag. (it will be harder to take out hammy I bet)
The equation itself didn't change just the variables so no more compute cycles will be used when the change goes through.
MoG, Elude, Overload, PFF, etc will be harder than ever to punch though by players.
What exactly does this have to do with changing of to-hit debuffs?
How about Aim?
How about Build Up?
To-Hit debuff enhancements are supposed to go in these powers?
I'd like to know how much my 3 slotted nova form with 2hit buffs will be reduced and my debuffing AOE attacks?
To-Hit Buffs were not changed, To-Hit debuffs will have a stronger impact on higher ranking/higher level foes but losing a bit of effect on minions.
What about underlings?
Underlings use the same basic accuracy and to-hit as a basic minion so no change to them.
Monsters? Giant monsters?
I believe these both use AV level accuracy/to-hit and as such you will have more effect on them than you did previously.
I feel the relaxing soling days are over ...
I think you are overreacting and drawing conclusions based on nothing.
[ QUOTE ]
NOW can we please get back on topic? From the numbers presented in this thread, to me it doesnt look like keeping the To-Hit DeBuff enhancements Schl A would be game breaking.
D I S C U S S
[/ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind there is also the issue of needing to keep to-hit debuffs and to hit buffs on the same schedule as they are essentially the same variable but with opposite signs. Hamidon Enhancements were generating a problem that needed to be dealt with in this regard and while not the major reasoning behind the change were likely nontrivial in the matter.
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NOW can we please get back on topic? From the numbers presented in this thread, to me it doesnt look like keeping the To-Hit DeBuff enhancements Schl A would be game breaking.
D I S C U S S
[/ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind there is also the issue of needing to keep to-hit debuffs and to hit buffs on the same schedule as they are essentially the same variable but with opposite signs. Hamidon Enhancements were generating a problem that needed to be dealt with in this regard and while not the major reasoning behind the change were likely nontrivial in the matter.
[/ QUOTE ]
Basically the reviled Defense Debuff Hammies (Lysomes?) that also were END reducers were allowing *defense* powers to be Schedule As instead of Schedule Bs.
I think. I think it has to do with Damage enhancements or their "mirror" Damage Resistance enhancements are seen as the same numbers in the code. That's one of the reasons that Master Mind pets can't be slotted for Defense or Damage Resistance. You would put in Damage and it was slotting the Damage Resistance too. At Sched A, no less.
Still here, even after all this time!
Meh. I don't see that being a "real" issue. ED still kicked in at the knee for the correct schedule. The most exploitive this got was it allowed you to get a little more than 3 SO's effect for 2 HOs. So - limited exploit that came into play only for level 45+ characters. Annoying in PvP, but hardly game breaking.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
Global defense buff
Global Defense change is more appropriate.
Global tohit buff to most Mobs
Their To-Hit is being lowered while their Accuracy is being buffed.
Schedual A to Schedual B for enhancers
One enhancement was moved.
Overall slower leveling speed ...
I really don't see where the heck this one came from.
non defense sets are gettin ~3-5% more damage incoming.
From what? The overall accuracy/to-hit from a mob isn't changing only the way the values are calculated is being adjusted. If you had no defense or to-hit buff you will notice no change. If you had a small defense you will notice a greater effect versus higher ranking and higher level foes.
Server will have to provide larger calculations for combat increasing lag. (it will be harder to take out hammy I bet)
The equation itself didn't change just the variables so no more compute cycles will be used when the change goes through.
MoG, Elude, Overload, PFF, etc will be harder than ever to punch though by players.
What exactly does this have to do with changing of to-hit debuffs?
How about Aim?
How about Build Up?
To-Hit debuff enhancements are supposed to go in these powers?
I'd like to know how much my 3 slotted nova form with 2hit buffs will be reduced and my debuffing AOE attacks?
To-Hit Buffs were not changed, To-Hit debuffs will have a stronger impact on higher ranking/higher level foes but losing a bit of effect on minions.
What about underlings?
Underlings use the same basic accuracy and to-hit as a basic minion so no change to them.
Monsters? Giant monsters?
I believe these both use AV level accuracy/to-hit and as such you will have more effect on them than you did previously.
I feel the relaxing soling days are over ...
I think you are overreacting and drawing conclusions based on nothing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just wait and see when this hits test. Builds that depend on 2hit buff and debuff WITH the defense change are going to have a new play style. Trust me I'll notice the difference in pain on my squishies.. that 3% that gave me defiance will now give me death becuase my buddies debuffs are not as strong. My /SR scrappers will be coming out of retirement becuase he won't be 1-2 shotted for every foot stomp from an AV that comes his way. Glancing over the numbers in this thread the overall playerbase is getting a small nerf. Drawing conclusions over nothing? I've put so many hours into this game that I notice every tiny change, my toons live on the bungie cord of death. A small change here ...and small change there. I remember when I could power thrust minions over the atlas globe, regen scrapper could tank hammy, And I could snipe at 300 yards, it's all gone...by little changes here and there. Watching what the devs do, questioning the numbers, and drawing up debate is what give the average player a chance of holding that meta-human super hero glory. Do a survey and find how many players from CoH Beta are left. Your being nickeled and dimed and don't even realize it . . .
ArchRex Dojhrom x ?
* Sidus Loricatus: B-NRG2, S-BS/Reg, T-Fire/Ice, MM-Bots/FF, St-NRG2, Dom-Psi/NRG, Cor-Son/Traps, Cor-Ice/Kin, Ctrl-Fire/Kin, PB-LB/LA
* Arachnos Loricatus: Soldier, Widow
* Praetoria Loricatus: B-DP/Dev, Cor-Elec/Elec
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think they do compare, a job is a job. If you worked at burger king and you always messed up orders, then you would be FIRED after enough people complained. If you were a mechanic and you mucked up people's engine's time and time again you would be fired.
[/ QUOTE ] They might fire the emplyee, but would they fire the Supervisor of that employee? Statesman is a supervisor, resposible for many facets of the business. While lack of notes may be bad, he is also resposible for content, code, personel, and lord knows what else... All of it more or less important than bad notes. But unless it's game breaking(and I don't think bad notes are), then he would have to blow in in some other areas befor he would get terminated.Massive defective code? Yes! Inapropreate content? Yes!! But as long as you and I can log in and play, no...
[/ QUOTE ]
you mean liek pushing a patch to live with a known reported bug in the new escort missiosn that mad some poepl crash to desk top. You know until the safemode patch i got a escore on eveyr other mission, ireguardess of character and level. And i have to PETETION teh GMS 3 times a NIGHT to clear them or i woudl crash to desk top.
How abouit coding in a chat spam filter to issue 7 then pushing it to test, and tey cant FIX it until issue 7 hit, that will ban people using macros or typing to fast with
emotes
local
team
broadcast
request
etc
you mean massive game breaking bugs like those that the players wil have to suffer for /a month/ with on live?
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
you mean liek pushing a patch to live with a known reported bug in the new escort missiosn that mad some poepl crash to desk top.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bugs happen. Depending on the severity will tell them where the "priorities" are. This is normal in any MMO.
[ QUOTE ]
You know until the safemode patch i got a escore on eveyr other mission, ireguardess of character and level. And i have to PETETION teh GMS 3 times a NIGHT to clear them or i woudl crash to desk top.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, because you had some problems makes it 1000% worse? I don't even *remember* this bug and the problems it gave other than "it happened" vaguely.
[ QUOTE ]
How abouit coding in a chat spam filter to issue 7 then pushing it to test, and tey cant FIX it until issue 7 hit, that will ban people using macros or typing to fast with
emotes
local
team
broadcast
request
etc
you mean massive game breaking bugs like those that the players wil have to suffer for /a month/ with on live?
[/ QUOTE ]
*Only* the emote thing is being adjusted. And that is because the developers are nice enough to say "break dancing is cool. We'll change our code so you can still break dance."
All of the other "spamming" chats are not being changed, as people can abuse them.
Still here, even after all this time!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you mean liek pushing a patch to live with a known reported bug in the new escort missiosn that mad some poepl crash to desk top.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bugs happen. Depending on the severity will tell them where the "priorities" are. This is normal in any MMO.
[ QUOTE ]
You know until the safemode patch i got a escore on eveyr other mission, ireguardess of character and level. And i have to PETETION teh GMS 3 times a NIGHT to clear them or i woudl crash to desk top.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, because you had some problems makes it 1000% worse? I don't even *remember* this bug and the problems it gave other than "it happened" vaguely.
[ QUOTE ]
How abouit coding in a chat spam filter to issue 7 then pushing it to test, and tey cant FIX it until issue 7 hit, that will ban people using macros or typing to fast with
emotes
local
team
broadcast
request
etc
you mean massive game breaking bugs like those that the players wil have to suffer for /a month/ with on live?
[/ QUOTE ]
*Only* the emote thing is being adjusted. And that is because the developers are nice enough to say "break dancing is cool. We'll change our code so you can still break dance."
All of the other "spamming" chats are not being changed, as people can abuse them.
[/ QUOTE ]
and when peope get baned for talking in team withtheir macro how many peopel you think will contine to play this game?
So basicly if a CRITICAL GAME BREAKING BUG (crashign to desktop is by definiton game break, it haping ever other mision is prety damn critical) doen't happend to YOU its a low prority?
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
How about being so INCOMPETNET when your TESTER reort that enervating fiend is underperforming you CLAIM to look into it and post on the patch notes "enervating field reported as changed, still not true" baslcy call al the peopl who did the TESTING for you and providing screenshot and log EVIDENCE bold face layers only to come out a few months later to say "Actually we did change it with issue 5."
that means one of 2 thing either their INCOMPETNET and cant even tract their OWN internaioal changes or
LYING SCHEEMING Wheezels...
so which is it, are the bold face lying cheets or incompeent idiots.
they have PROVEN by their own action tiehr one or the other.
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
and when peope get baned for talking in team withtheir macro how many peopel you think will contine to play this game?
[/ QUOTE ]
They can not spam chats and still play. Spamming chats is perfectly within reason for the developers to "control". And they did and are. If your enjoyment of the game *requires* you to spam chats, that is not the developers fault.
[ QUOTE ]
So basicly if a CRITICAL GAME BREAKING BUG (crashign to desktop is by definiton game break, it haping ever other mision is prety damn critical) doen't happend to YOU its a low prority?
[/ QUOTE ]
If it happens about 1% of the time or to 1% of the people, its a fairly medium priority (as all crash bugs should be) if it happens to 25% all the time, it's a rollback the patch (which has happened.)
Your histronics are just the bleating of someone that is angry and has to take their anger out on a very professional company that at least *really* converses with their playerbase.
Most companies just say "this is how it is!" and don't even have conversations about it. Jack could have taken the easy way out and published his thoughts on the web page with *no* ability for people to "officially" talk about it where it might be heard by himself.
It's a very gutsy thing.
Still here, even after all this time!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and when peope get baned for talking in team withtheir macro how many peopel you think will contine to play this game?
[/ QUOTE ]
They can not spam chats and still play. Spamming chats is perfectly within reason for the developers to "control". And they did and are. If your enjoyment of the game *requires* you to spam chats, that is not the developers fault.
[ QUOTE ]
So basicly if a CRITICAL GAME BREAKING BUG (crashign to desktop is by definiton game break, it haping ever other mision is prety damn critical) doen't happend to YOU its a low prority?
[/ QUOTE ]
If it happens about 1% of the time or to 1% of the people, its a fairly medium priority (as all crash bugs should be) if it happens to 25% all the time, it's a rollback the patch (which has happened.)
Your histronics are just the bleating of someone that is angry and has to take their anger out on a very professional company that at least *really* converses with their playerbase.
Most companies just say "this is how it is!" and don't even have conversations about it. Jack could have taken the easy way out and published his thoughts on the web page with *no* ability for people to "officially" talk about it where it might be heard by himself.
It's a very gutsy thing.
[/ QUOTE ]
medium prority, your own words, and yet they let it leave test
so you think its also lagitimate for some to be baned from chating for inforing a PuG how their powers work? It was tested and Up-
Enter is two slow for it to stop spaming only MACROS can get you chat baned. So guess i haven to stop informing folk how my 4 kenitcs power work?
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
medium prority, your own words, and yet they let it leave test
[/ QUOTE ]
Medium means fixing it as soon as they can reasonably track it down and fix it, not "stop the world and fix it over everything else".
[ QUOTE ]
so you think its also lagitimate for some to be baned from chating for inforing a PuG how their powers work? It was tested and Up-
Enter is two slow for it to stop spaming only MACROS can get you chat baned. So guess i haven to stop informing folk how my 4 kenitcs power work?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, *SLOW DOWN* your macros that explain things. Or make them bigger explanantions. For something that is to keep people from *incessantly* spamming public channels, I think this is a good thing.
Still here, even after all this time!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
medium prority, your own words, and yet they let it leave test
[/ QUOTE ]
Medium means fixing it as soon as they can reasonably track it down and fix it, not "stop the world and fix it over everything else".
[ QUOTE ]
so you think its also lagitimate for some to be baned from chating for inforing a PuG how their powers work? It was tested and Up-
Enter is two slow for it to stop spaming only MACROS can get you chat baned. So guess i haven to stop informing folk how my 4 kenitcs power work?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, *SLOW DOWN* your macros that explain things. Or make them bigger explanantions. For something that is to keep people from *incessantly* spamming public channels, I think this is a good thing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Team is a public channel? Local is a public channel ge i though only the people in your PRIVATE TEAM could hear you on team. I thought only people near you heard you in local. You mean the genrl public can hear me when im talkign to my PuG?
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
Builds that depend on 2hit buff and debuff WITH the defense change are going to have a new play style.
I'm still pondering how a change to To-Hit Debuff enhancements is going to have any effect on powers that don't even take those enhancements. To-Hit Debuff powers will likely see an overall change along with defense but it's more one in predictability and an overall increase of power not a loss.
Drawing conclusions over nothing?
You proclaimed the sky is falling because powers like Aim and Build Up are getting nerfed (no change to these powers at all) and that powers like Overload, MoG, and Elude will be impossible to punch through (players already had their PvP to-hit reduced to 50% back in I6). You've drawn conclusions based completely on nothing.
[ QUOTE ]
Meh. I don't see that being a "real" issue. ED still kicked in at the knee for the correct schedule. The most exploitive this got was it allowed you to get a little more than 3 SO's effect for 2 HOs. So - limited exploit that came into play only for level 45+ characters. Annoying in PvP, but hardly game breaking.
[/ QUOTE ]
Think of it more like the extra guy in a tug-of-war. While alone he might not look like much and was the last guy picked he could be the deciding factor between victory and defeat.
I was able to manage a test stacking two Tar Patches of my own, an the before/after numbers worked out to a ratio of 1.60. If they used to stack in a nonlinear fashion, the devs changed it without noting it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA