To Hit Debuff Enhancement Change Explained
By
Amber_Blaze,
Posted on: 2006-04-05 16:34 in Developers' Corner
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EF does not buff its own damage debuff. They are both measured to be 22%.
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EF -res is 30%, tested it two days ago.
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What it really means is that FF needs more utility in its other powers rather than pretty much nothing but defense.
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I am in total agreement with that.
I just don't like One Trick Ponies. 
Even if they are overwhelmingly powerful in their one area.
No offense Uber...but you've got waaaay too much free time 
Go play the game for goodness sake!
I'm in a Strike Force right now, with my Ice/Dark. 
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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How is that possible if damage debuffs work that way? (q.v Tar Patch and Darkest Night). I believe it is impossible for it to work that way. If so, the base debuff is set so that the "buffed" debuff works out to 22%.
In any case, it all means that I have, in fact, double counted it. I'll correct my earlier post to that effect.
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Debuffs are *damage* and hence if you debuff Damage Resistance, you are now more affectable.
Let's take Tar Patch with it's base of -30% Damage Resistance Debuff. You drop it and the mobs are now taking +30% more damage.
Drop a second and they are taking +71% extra damage, until you hit the minimum (which I believe is the hard coded 10% limit.)
This also impacts how the mob *resists* Darkest Night Accuracy/To-Hit debuff and Damage Debuff.
There was a big reason I advocated reigning in the Tar Patch Damage Resist debuff. It was freaking powerful solo and I was almost able to solo AVs and Giant Monsters as long as they didn't have any mezzing.
Still here, even after all this time!
Are we positive that their resistances resist the toHit debuff? Because now I've heard they do and they dont. Castle? Anyone?
Also, I think you misunderstood my point. I understand that DR debuffs affect damage debuffs. I was talking specifically about EF and the fact that there's no way to measure the damage debuff independant of the DR debuff (much like it's impossible to measure Hasten's true recharge directly).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I have never seen any evidence that ToHit debuffs can be resisted with normal damage resistance.
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How is that possible if damage debuffs work that way? (q.v Tar Patch and Darkest Night). I believe it is impossible for it to work that way. If so, the base debuff is set so that the "buffed" debuff works out to 22%.
In any case, it all means that I have, in fact, double counted it. I'll correct my earlier post to that effect.
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Debuffs are *damage* and hence if you debuff Damage Resistance, you are now more affectable.
Let's take Tar Patch with it's base of -30% Damage Resistance Debuff. You drop it and the mobs are now taking +30% more damage.
Drop a second and they are taking +71% extra damage, until you hit the minimum (which I believe is the hard coded 10% limit.)
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Where are you getting 71% from? -30% + -30% = -60%.
The cap for resistance is -300%.
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This also impacts how the mob *resists* Darkest Night Accuracy/To-Hit debuff and Damage Debuff.
There was a big reason I advocated reigning in the Tar Patch Damage Resist debuff. It was freaking powerful solo and I was almost able to solo AVs and Giant Monsters as long as they didn't have any mezzing.
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Let me make this very clear: Damage Resistance has NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on To-Hit. They are two completely unrelated attributes. Damage and Damage Resistance buffs/debuffs are only related because they both use the same set of attributes.
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How is that possible if damage debuffs work that way? (q.v Tar Patch and Darkest Night). I believe it is impossible for it to work that way. If so, the base debuff is set so that the "buffed" debuff works out to 22%.
In any case, it all means that I have, in fact, double counted it. I'll correct my earlier post to that effect.
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Debuffs are *damage* and hence if you debuff Damage Resistance, you are now more affectable.
Let's take Tar Patch with it's base of -30% Damage Resistance Debuff. You drop it and the mobs are now taking +30% more damage.
Drop a second and they are taking +71% extra damage, until you hit the minimum (which I believe is the hard coded 10% limit.)
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Where are you getting 71% from? -30% + -30% = -60%.
The cap for resistance is -300%.
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Except that you have less resistance to resist the second debuff, hence it is more effective. About 1/3rd more, I believe.
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This also impacts how the mob *resists* Darkest Night Accuracy/To-Hit debuff and Damage Debuff.
There was a big reason I advocated reigning in the Tar Patch Damage Resist debuff. It was freaking powerful solo and I was almost able to solo AVs and Giant Monsters as long as they didn't have any mezzing.
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Let me make this very clear: Damage Resistance has NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on To-Hit. They are two completely unrelated attributes. Damage and Damage Resistance buffs/debuffs are only related because they both use the same set of attributes.
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All debuffs are considered "damage" or an attack and are resisted. Dark Miasma's are "Dark Energy" so things with high Dark Resistance are less debuffed, they "resist" it better. If you lower their resistance (like by debuffing their damage resistance with Tar Patch) you can debuff things better.
Still here, even after all this time!
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Except that you have less resistance to resist the second debuff, hence it is more effective. About 1/3rd more, I believe.
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This does not seem to be the way the effect is calculated, at least for Archery's two resistance debuffs. While damage resistance does resist damage debuffs, at least for Disruption and Acid Arrow, the calculation is done before any debuffs are applied.
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All debuffs are considered "damage" or an attack and are resisted. Dark Miasma's are "Dark Energy" so things with high Dark Resistance are less debuffed, they "resist" it better. If you lower their resistance (like by debuffing their damage resistance with Tar Patch) you can debuff things better.
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This is assuredly not the case. Tar Patch works well against Banished Pantheon for my Dark/En. By comparision, a TA/Dark's Disruption Arrow would get reamed by them.
I would swear a redname confirmed this behavior in the past (that debuffs were resisted by damage resistance matching the "type" of the debuff). We were even discussing forumlas for it. It caused quite a furor at the time among the Defender community.
To my recollection, the discussion at the time centered on DR debuffs (at the time, I think that was primarily Enervating Field). It was some time ago, though, so I just may not remember correctly.
Anyone want to test it?
EDIT: Hmm, so we know it's resisted for damage debuffs. What about DR debuffs (the thing I remember the devs talking about)? And if those two, why not toHit? This is why I'm asking if we're sure.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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EDIT: Hmm, so we know it's resisted for damage debuffs. What about DR debuffs (the thing I remember the devs talking about)?
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Damage resistance debuffs are resisted by damage resistance...
But they are resisted by the damage resistance by each individual attack type.
And it seems that damage resistance debuffs don't change how much they are resisted.
For example, say a Radiation/Archery and a Dark/Dark Defender are playing with Banished Pantheon of the same level.
Normally, the Archery Defender's attacks will do 105% of their normal damage, and the /Dark will do 50% (Banished Pantheon suck like that).
The Dark/ defender drops down a Tar Patch. Now the Archery Defender will do 136.5% of their base damage, and the /Dark will do 65%. Tar Patch's 'type' doesn't matter, and may not even exist. Each type of damage resistance is calculated and resisted individually.
Now, while the Tar Patch is still active, the Rad/ Defender drops En Field. The Archery Defender will now be doing 168% of their base damage, while the /Dark will be doing 80% of their base damage. Note that the first damage resistance debuff doesn't seem to affect the second.
<edit>Geko's Thread</edit>
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And if those two, why not toHit?
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Because in personal testing, I've yet to discover the level of huge honking difference that Banished Pantheon resisting half of my Darkest Night's tohit debuff would provide. The mechanic for tohit debuff currently isn't typed at all - I don't believe it can be resisted by damage resistance.
I remember the days when Statesman said he didn't want to give out numbers because HE wanted the game to be for the FUN of it.
All I see is that minions are going to hit more often and characters will fall even faster.
Boy, am I glad that blasters have the Defiance power- they may get to use it more... assuming they are not killed even faster.
Because I started skipping pages and never REALLY pay attention to who is talking (and I am like to hear my own voice)-
1) I agree with whoever suggested that there should be a developer that actually knew most/ all of the calculations on how things worked so they could see what combo of powers MIGHT BE EFFECTIVE, but that would cause Statesman to nerf all of the ATs that would have to team up to get those bonuses.
2) I agree that too many "I'm sorry, there was a mistake" from this company is wearing thin with me as well.
3) They should give out the figures for the powers and calculations and how/WHAT ORDER things occur so "we" (not me, but someone) can show them how wrong they are BEFORE things go badly.
4) Rednames SHOULD read and respond to things on the DEVELOPERS CORNER when they start a thread by admitting they made a mistake. Does DR resist DR debuffing? Or even the question raised on the first page (which escape me because of my short term memory is too short... but wait till it gets into my long term memory- WATCH OUT!) as I thought it worked that way as well.
OK, that's the thread I remembered. Thanks for that.
So, getting back to my mitigation calculations, it sounds like Defense debuffs are not resisted except by specific powers (such as those found on +Def powersets).
Do we think that damage debuffs will be resisted or not? I have verified that debuffing the DR of a target increases the effect of a damage debuff on it. This strongly suggests to me that a target with appropriate DR would resist a damage debuff.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
So in summary:
Global defense buff
Global tohit buff to most Mobs
Schedual A to Schedual B for enhancers
Overall slower leveling speed ...
Larger teams will benefit in a narrow range, non defense sets are gettin ~3-5% more damage incoming. Server will have to provide larger calculations for combat increasing lag. (it will be harder to take out hammy I bet) PvP is drastically being effected [I can see why MM PFF had to be changed since it will be harder to hit them]
MoG, Elude, Overload, PFF, etc will be harder than ever to punch though by players.
I'd like to know how much my 3 slotted nova form with 2hit buffs will be reduced and my debuffing AOE attacks?
How about Aim?
How about Build Up?
I feel the relaxing soling days are over ...
What about underlings? Monsters? Giant monsters?
So many Q's, numbers, and tests to do . . .
ArchRex Dojhrom x ?
* Sidus Loricatus: B-NRG2, S-BS/Reg, T-Fire/Ice, MM-Bots/FF, St-NRG2, Dom-Psi/NRG, Cor-Son/Traps, Cor-Ice/Kin, Ctrl-Fire/Kin, PB-LB/LA
* Arachnos Loricatus: Soldier, Widow
* Praetoria Loricatus: B-DP/Dev, Cor-Elec/Elec
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Do we think that damage debuffs will be resisted or not? I have verified that debuffing the DR of a target increases the effect of a damage debuff on it. This strongly suggests to me that a target with appropriate DR would resist a damage debuff.
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Yes, and it's resisted by the type of damage done by the enemy.
For example, using Darkest Night on an Armored Rikti (who resist 30% of incoming Lethal and Energy damage, but doesn't resist Negative Energy damage) will only debuff damage by 26.25%. Dropping Tar Patch will increase that to ~34.1%, though.
It's not the aspect of the damage debuff, but an aspect of the enemy.
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Except that you have less resistance to resist the second debuff, hence it is more effective. About 1/3rd more, I believe.
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This does not seem to be the way the effect is calculated, at least for Archery's two resistance debuffs. While damage resistance does resist damage debuffs, at least for Disruption and Acid Arrow, the calculation is done before any debuffs are applied.
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I know it did with Dark Miasma when they added the Tar Patch -DAM RES. It's a -30% Damage resistance, then *another* -40%. It got really ugly on the third application, as the mobs DR was only at about 30% and end up being debuffed another 60-70%.
The damage ended up being +30% for the first Tar, +70% with the second and I think +120% for the third (which you could do on test.)
That's right. It was an added cumalitive effect. The second tarpatch was 30% for effective, so the second one debuffed 39% (30+30*.3) so was debuffed a total of 69% from just two applications. If you had a third tar patch to throw on top, it was 69% for effective (30+30*.69) so you debuffed 50.7 for the third one, on top of the 119.7% Damage Resistance Debuff.
This math would show why with just three applications you could "more than double" your damage.
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All debuffs are considered "damage" or an attack and are resisted. Dark Miasma's are "Dark Energy" so things with high Dark Resistance are less debuffed, they "resist" it better. If you lower their resistance (like by debuffing their damage resistance with Tar Patch) you can debuff things better.
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This is assuredly not the case. Tar Patch works well against Banished Pantheon for my Dark/En. By comparision, a TA/Dark's Disruption Arrow would get reamed by them.
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It does work... but not as well as it is 50% resisted. I think I remember testing that and it's where I noticed that debuffing DR could be resisted.
Still here, even after all this time!
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MoG, Elude, Overload, PFF, etc will be harder than ever to punch though by players.
I'd like to know how much my 3 slotted nova form with 2hit buffs will be reduced and my debuffing AOE attacks?
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Nothing in any of this changes the character's ability to hit anything.
This affects only mobs ability to hit us.
The schedule change in the OP is for toHit debuffs - something that would make it harder for mobs to hit us (or to hit other players in PvP).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Except that you have less resistance to resist the second debuff, hence it is more effective. About 1/3rd more, I believe.
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This does not seem to be the way the effect is calculated, at least for Archery's two resistance debuffs. While damage resistance does resist damage debuffs, at least for Disruption and Acid Arrow, the calculation is done before any debuffs are applied.
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All debuffs are considered "damage" or an attack and are resisted. Dark Miasma's are "Dark Energy" so things with high Dark Resistance are less debuffed, they "resist" it better. If you lower their resistance (like by debuffing their damage resistance with Tar Patch) you can debuff things better.
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This is assuredly not the case. Tar Patch works well against Banished Pantheon for my Dark/En. By comparision, a TA/Dark's Disruption Arrow would get reamed by them.
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Blueeyed is correct on both accounts.
When stacking -res powers, they all get summed up and then applied. One resistance debuff doesn't affect the others.
Not all debuffs are resisted normally like damage. Take defense debuffs as an example. Only defense debuff resistance resists it. Same with ToHit Debuffs, only ToHit Debuff resistance resists it.
Damage debuffs are resisted kinda wierdly. An enemy has to first resist a type of damage and then also deal that type of damage, and only the damage-types for which those two requirements are met will resist the debuff while all others won't.
Resistance Debuffs only allow you to debuff some aspects, like damage, better. Actually, that's really the only thing that's affected by it.
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Blueeyed is correct on both accounts.
When stacking -res powers, they all get summed up and then applied. One resistance debuff doesn't affect the others.
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That can't be right for the Tar Patch stacking on itself. I know the increase was not a flat 30%. I was *more than doubling* my damage with three -30% Damage Resistance debuffs when this first hit test.
Still here, even after all this time!
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Blueeyed is correct on both accounts.
When stacking -res powers, they all get summed up and then applied. One resistance debuff doesn't affect the others.
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That can't be right for the Tar Patch stacking on itself. I know the increase was not a flat 30%. I was *more than doubling* my damage with three -30% Damage Resistance debuffs when this first hit test.
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It was a flat increase of 60%. Get two Dark Defenders together and try it yourself.
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Blueeyed is correct on both accounts.
When stacking -res powers, they all get summed up and then applied. One resistance debuff doesn't affect the others.
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That can't be right for the Tar Patch stacking on itself. I know the increase was not a flat 30%. I was *more than doubling* my damage with three -30% Damage Resistance debuffs when this first hit test.
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It was a flat increase of 60%. Get two Dark Defenders together and try it yourself.
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Already tested, thanks. On test when I could three stack it myself.
Why don't *you* go test it to match what you saw?
Still here, even after all this time!
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Blueeyed is correct on both accounts.
When stacking -res powers, they all get summed up and then applied. One resistance debuff doesn't affect the others.
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That can't be right for the Tar Patch stacking on itself. I know the increase was not a flat 30%. I was *more than doubling* my damage with three -30% Damage Resistance debuffs when this first hit test.
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It was a flat increase of 60%. Get two Dark Defenders together and try it yourself.
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Already tested, thanks. On test when I could three stack it myself.
Why don't *you* go test it to match what you saw?
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I did in I4 when it was on test. The resistance debuff enhancing other resistance debuffs was one of Erratic's main concerns about Tar Patch getting the -resistance. If you remember, he was very much so against Tar Patch having any -resistance.
A quick test against an even-lvl Nemesis soldier revealed that they stacked at a linear rate. Erratic's exact response to this was "at least we're spared that madness".
I think you need to re-check your tests, they seem to be either fabricated or wrong.
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I know it did with Dark Miasma when they added the Tar Patch -DAM RES. It's a -30% Damage resistance, then *another* -40%. It got really ugly on the third application, as the mobs DR was only at about 30% and end up being debuffed another 60-70%.
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Well, either it's changed, or your testing was faulty. I just booted up a TA/A, and using the two -res debuffs there gave me 140% of base damage, which would correspond to the two +20% buffs.
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It does work... but not as well as it is 50% resisted. I think I remember testing that and it's where I noticed that debuffing DR could be resisted.
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Damage Resistance Debuffing is only resisted by damage resistance by resistance typing, not by any 'type' for the power.
Tar Patch works *better* against Banished Pantheon than Warriors, for example, when all you're interested in is Energy damage. It works worse if you're looking for Negative or Smashing damage. The same is true for Disruption Arrow, Freezing Rain, Enervating Field, and Acid Arrow That wouldn't be the case if your methodology was correct.
How is that possible if damage debuffs work that way? (q.v Tar Patch and Darkest Night). I believe it is impossible for it to work that way. If so, the base debuff is set so that the "buffed" debuff works out to 22%.
In any case, it all means that I have, in fact, double counted it. I'll correct my earlier post to that effect.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA