To Hit Debuff Enhancement Change Explained
By
Amber_Blaze,
Posted on: 2006-04-05 16:34 in Developers' Corner
ToHit debuffs were never a straight line. They always were less effective in terms of mitigation versus higher level foes. In fact, mitigation falloff used to be roughly quadratic (increasing as a function of level difference squared), where now it will be roughly linear.
The defense scaling change is an unqualified improvement in the way toHit debuffs aid us. The nerf is due exclusively to the change in schedule (and to a lesser degree, the new rank-based resistance).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
If you are going to complain about soloability, don't compare the buffs that FF gets that it can't use on the caster. Those debuffs still outshine the protection Dispersion Bubble grants the FF'er.
Also, for a team of 5, we're talking about clicking 9 times for the ff'r, while people are comparing against 1 to 3 clicks for the debuffers. Buffers have to hit each teammate, debuffers each mob.
The relative merits of each are debateable, but to say that FF is suddenly going to be the "best" set is just silly.
<edit> This wasn't directed directly at UberGuy directly, but I do think it's important to note that those fun lines being drawn up may or may not be the same for soloing. Or, I could just be on drugs and misreading the various complaints I'm seeing.
Um, did you mean that for me? Because I've never said word one about soloability.
FF used to absolutely kick [censored] as team mitigation before I5. I personally think it was underrated due to "r u healor" syndrome, but many knew. Now it will, I think, be regarded that way again.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Most companies just say "this is how it is!" and don't even have conversations about it. Jack could have taken the easy way out and published his thoughts on the web page with *no* ability for people to "officially" talk about it where it might be heard by himself.
It's a very gutsy thing.
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No matter how you paint it, a nerf is a nerf. Jack has come out with wrong numbers and incorrect facts, on this and other occasions, and changes were pushed through that ultimately were detrimental.
Promises made by him to his us, his customers, have gone by the wayside. There are only so many 'mea culpa's' one can credit. Or stomach.
Should Jack take flak from us for these things? Yes. Absolutely. It goes with failing to fulfill a promise.
Pardon me if I'm sceptical of any promises, past or future, that Jack makes. The track record isnt very good.
Right now, the ony reason I keep my account open is because of the people in game. As more and more of those folks tire of becoming less and less heroic with each new 'nerfue' and leave, the reasons for my remaining grow less and less.
I've tried other MMO's. In some, I loved the gameplay, hated the community. Here I love the community and I used to love the gameplay.
I realize what I've said here is purely subjective, and is my own opinion. But somehow, I doubt I'm the only one that feels this way.
~Liberty~
The LEGION (CoH) - The Fallen LEGION (CoV)
Forget your fears and want no more
50's - Renkoro, Remorseless
~Virtue~
Angry Angels / Jaded Angels
Global - @Puretone
This thread has shown me one interesting point of note:
The more emotional people get, the more they have a tendancy to monkey-fist their keyboard. That's a humorous mental image. Wouldn't you agree?
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To-Hit Debuff powers will likely see an overall change along with defense but it's more one in predictability and an overall increase of power not a loss.
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ToHit Debuff powers will see an overall change. It actually makes them less predictable since they now scale on a curve rather than a straight line, and the overall change in power is a loss, not an increase.
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Tha's a shame.
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Most companies just say "this is how it is!" and don't even have conversations about it. Jack could have taken the easy way out and published his thoughts on the web page with *no* ability for people to "officially" talk about it where it might be heard by himself.
It's a very gutsy thing.
[/ QUOTE ]
No matter how you paint it, a nerf is a nerf. Jack has come out with wrong numbers and incorrect facts, on this and other occasions, and changes were pushed through that ultimately were detrimental.
Promises made by him to his us, his customers, have gone by the wayside. There are only so many 'mea culpa's' one can credit. Or stomach.
Should Jack take flak from us for these things? Yes. Absolutely. It goes with failing to fulfill a promise.
Pardon me if I'm sceptical of any promises, past or future, that Jack makes. The track record isnt very good.
Right now, the only reason I keep my account open is because of the people in game. As more and more of those folks tire of becoming less and less heroic with each new 'nerfue' and leave, the reasons for my remaining grow less and less.
I've tried other MMO's. In some, I loved the gameplay, hated the community. Here I love the community and I used to love the gameplay.
I realize what I've said here is purely subjective, and is my own opinion. But somehow, I doubt I'm the only one that feels this way.
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I feel the same. I7 should include more counter-nerfs. I really dont understand how they can still be so afraid that something is going to get slightly overpowered while so many underpowered things go ignored. And more importantly, I dont see how they can ignore the people leaving because the game is less fun now. I dont have numbers but I believe the number of people leaving because of nerfs is matching the people leaving because the game was too easy or unbalanced.
I'd still like someone to tell me where I'm going wrong with my numbers. I'm probably messing up somewhere, but I'd like to know where and what step. Here's my post
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HOw exactly is everyone getting their i7 numbers? By the way I remember the forumla
A +3 boss has a 1.15 rank mod, a 1.3 accuracy mod, rad infection does .4372*.65*.7= .2
1+.15+.3 * (.5-.2)
1.45 * (.3)
43.5% chance to hit for a +3 boss in i7
Now, before the nerf, with boss tohit and rank tohit bonus
rad infection does 0.5187*.65*.7=.256
boss bonus=15%
rank bonus=27%
50%+15%+27%-25.6%=66.4% tohit for the boss
Correct me if I'm wrong with my numbers, but this is a huge boost from now to i7.
EDIT: Saw where I messed up in one calc, but I'm not convinced about i6 numbers yet tho, pre this nerf
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EDIT: Fixed an error. Numbers are more in favor of this as a buff than before.
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I think they do compare, a job is a job. If you worked at burger king and you always messed up orders, then you would be FIRED after enough people complained. If you were a mechanic and you mucked up people's engine's time and time again you would be fired.
[/ QUOTE ] They might fire the emplyee, but would they fire the Supervisor of that employee? Statesman is a supervisor, resposible for many facets of the business. While lack of notes may be bad, he is also resposible for content, code, personel, and lord knows what else... All of it more or less important than bad notes. But unless it's game breaking(and I don't think bad notes are), then he would have to blow in in some other areas befor he would get terminated.Massive defective code? Yes! Inapropreate content? Yes!! But as long as you and I can log in and play, no...
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Okay so we know Jack isn't going anywhere (thats just a pipe dream of a LOT of people, myself included); but yet you want me to put my faith in someone who consistently and often posts "errors" and forgets things? No thanks.
As for me walking away from the game, I have and come back. As Puretone said, I play it to be with my friends, the community. But I too see more and more of them getting disgusted and going to play WoW and Eve and a few other MMOs. That alone should be a wakeup call to Statesman. It usually is to ANY OTHER COMPANY.
And no bad patch notes aren't game breaking, they are morale breaking, causing customers to think "yep..there they go again with the 'stealth nerfs'". I can log in and play, do I enjoy it as much as I did in I3? NO. Now when I respec a toon instead of doing it quite quickly, I sit there with my steno pad and my pencil, just thinking about what I am going to do, where should I slot, and will this power be nerfed anytime soon?
Thanks, NC Soft, for closing my favorite game ever without warning and with plenty of life still left in it, and thus relieving me of the burden of EVER wanting to buy, try or even hear about another game from your company. Will my decision make a dent, or persuade them in anyway, shape or form? Nope, obviously not. Don't care. NC Soft is dead to me. ~ PsyFox
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And no bad patch notes aren't game breaking, they are morale breaking, causing customers to think "yep..there they go again with the 'stealth nerfs'". I can log in and play, do I enjoy it as much as I did in I3? NO. Now when I respec a toon instead of doing it quite quickly, I sit there with my steno pad and my pencil, just thinking about what I am going to do, where should I slot, and will this power be nerfed anytime soon?
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This I agree with you on. I hate the seemingly endless nerfing. I really do. I have argued vehemently in the past that, in terms of what we've lost, we've been nerfed far more than we've been buffed. That the things buffed were usually significantly sub-par, and the things nerfed have fallen very far.
I do feel far less super than I did when this game started. Look at my sig and you'll see powersets that were once gods among the others (and I made most of them before I knew that). To be fair, you'll also see some that were once (and in one case still is) fairly gimp, and that were fixed or are about to be.
I still enjoy this game. Most of my playing friends have moved on not because they are disgusted with nerfs (even if they were) but because they got into new games or Real LifeĀ took their gaming time or access away. I still play it. I still love my characters. I am pleased to say that my favorites still kick a lot of rear. They may not be gods among heroes, but they still stand tall.
If you look back at just about every nerfed powerset, there were one or two anchor powers an 'uber' powerset could hang its hat on. Nowadays, the most heavily nerfed ones have had to spread out and rely on more powers. More clicks. You can still rock out, but for shorter periods - you have to sort of save up your real coolness for the really tough fights.
This particular nerf I am looking at and thinking I mostly understand, given that perspective. Look at the mitigation numbers I posted. With some power spamming, a Dark Miasma character is going to be able to mitigate from 92-72% of the average damage output of a +3-+0 AV. That's with the nerf. My guess is that the devs looked at this and realized that a player who really used all the tools at his disposal could crush the average damage of an AV if they didn't make this change.
My concerns are that they may need to do other things to make up for the nerf in other ways. If Rad Emission really needs to run all three anchors to reach strong mitigation, maybe the toggles should be made a little cheaper, and all given fast activations (like EF has). I have no experience with Trick Arrow, but if it lacks strong stacking, maybe it's base debuff number needs to rise.
I look at every nerf based on the current state of things, not based how things were at I3 or even release (I've been here since CoH pre-release, and had 6 friends in beta). Overall, I don't think this nerf is very strong. I'm here to raise the issues I do see and hope that, if they have any merit, the devs will look into it before it goes live.
Oh, and I am disgruntled that this nerf goes in before I7. That is just plain dumb. I don't have much faith in Cryptic's code deployment process. From the customer perspective, it seems to stink. 
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Post deleted by anarchicgorilla
I can get the "after" math to line up. I did not try to check the "before" math.
I did this programatically rather than as a spreadsheet. Here's what I am using. For the curious, this is Python code. Hopefully it's reasonably easy to read for anyone with even minor background in CS.
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>BaseToHit = 0.5
LevelAccMod = {0:0, 1:0.10, 2:0.2, 3:0.30}
CombatMod = {0:0, 1:0.10, 2:0.2, 3:0.35}
RankAccMod = {Minion:0, LT:0.15, Boss:0.3, AV:0.50}
RankResist = {Minion:0, LT:0.10, Boss:0.2, AV:0.30}
def getModifiedToHit(rank, level, buff, debuff, defense):
debuff = debuff * (1 - CombatMod[level]) * (1 - RankResist[rank])
toHit = BaseToHit + buff - defense - debuff
toHit = min(toHit,0.95)
toHit = max(toHit,0.05)
return toHit
def getAccuracy(rank, level):
return (1 + RankAccMod[rank]) * (1 + LevelAccMod[level])
def getToHit(rank, level, buff, debuff, defense):
toHit = getAccuracy(rank,level) * getModifiedToHit(rank,level,buff,debuff,defense)
toHit = min(toHit,0.95)
toHit = max(toHit,0.05)
return toHit</pre><hr />
The function of real use there is the last one, "getToHit". I broke out the accuracy and inner toHit calculations to improve legibility and so I could calculate those two things independantly for arcane analysis reasons.
Using this math matched Statesman's "after" numbers to +/- 0.01.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Using your code:
LevelAccMod = {0:0, 1:0.10, 2:0.2, 3:0.30}
RankAccMod = {Minion:0, LT:0.15, Boss:0.3, AV:0.50}
CombatMod = {0:0, 1:0.10, 2:0.2, 3:0.35}
RankResist = {Minion:0, LT:0.10, Boss:0.2, AV:0.30}
debuff = debuff (.4375) * (1 - CombatMod[level] (.1)) * (1 - RankResist[rank] (.2) )
.................................................. ...............................
4.375 * (1 - .1) * (1 - .2) =
4.375 * (.9) * (.8) = .315 for debuff
.................................................. .............................
toHit = BaseToHit + buff - defense - debuff
.5 - .315 = .185 for tohit
.................................................. .........
def getAccuracy(rank, level): return (1 + RankAccMod[rank] (.3)) * (1 + LevelAccMod[level] (.1))
1.3 * 1.1 = 1.43 accuracy
.................................................. ...........................
toHit = getAccuracy(rank,level) * getModifiedToHit(rank,level,buff,debuff,defense)
1.43 * .185 = 26.46
Boss 26.46% match
.................................................. ...............................
I understand how you can get the second numbers to match.
However use those values for the first set. Which is my point. And leads into my questions.
I have to run out so I only skimmed your reply, but I'll toss out there that the math for the "before" case is different. Several of the terms that will be multipliciative are currently additive. I'll check back in later!
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I'd still like someone to tell me where I'm going wrong with my numbers. I'm probably messing up somewhere, but I'd like to know where and what step. Here's my post
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HOw exactly is everyone getting their i7 numbers? By the way I remember the forumla
A +3 boss has a 1.15 rank mod, a 1.3 accuracy mod, rad infection does .4372*.65*.7= .2
1+.15+.3 * (.5-.2)
1.45 * (.3)
43.5% chance to hit for a +3 boss in i7
Now, before the nerf, with boss tohit and rank tohit bonus
rad infection does 0.5187*.65*.7=.256
boss bonus=15%
rank bonus=27%
50%+15%+27%-25.6%=66.4% tohit for the boss
Correct me if I'm wrong with my numbers, but this is a huge boost from now to i7.
EDIT: Saw where I messed up in one calc, but I'm not convinced about i6 numbers yet tho, pre this nerf
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EDIT: Fixed an error. Numbers are more in favor of this as a buff than before.
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The answer lies in the fact that nobody puts only two ToHit Debuff enhancements in Rad Infection.
Statesman was, in a way, downplaying the effects of the enhancement nerf by having his RI two-slotted for debuffs.
LOL was looking at States post and just noted this little tid bit added in the "before"
Even Con
Minion .5 (Base to Hit) -0.5187 (Radiation Infection To Hit Debuff) = -0.0187 or 5% chance to hit (minimum before Accuracy modifications)
Lieutenant 5.66%
Boss 13.13%
This would explain my confusion actually.
The two examples compare old but not factoring in acc modifier for level and maybe rank, to new factoring in everything.
Silly me I was expecting a "even or fair" comparision. Where we comapare the final with everything factored before to the final with everything factored after.
So actually if the "old" factored everything (and it was double hit) I would assume the +1 would actaully be this:
+1 Level
Minion (.5 * 1.1 <lvl modifier> ) - (0.5187 * .9 <lvl red. effectiveness modifier> ) = .08317
Lieutenant (.575 * 1.1 ) - (0.5187 * .9 * .9 <rank red. effectiveness modifier> ) = .212
Boss (.65 * 1.1 ) - (0.5187 * .9 * .8) = .3415
Dev post
+1 Level
Minion 8.32%
Lieutenant 15.85%
Boss 23.32%
Again the math could work out with rounding if in the past a double hit was not done for rank on effectiveess of THDB's
So either the reduced effectiveness for THDB in regards to rank was added with the Type B change for I7 or this was not factored in the original post.
Enemies, as of right now, cannot get any sort of accuracy buff at all (unless they're using powers that have inherent accuracy buffs, like archery blasts). Until Issue 7, their accuracy modifier will be 1.
Accurcy buff was the wrong phrase... what it should have said was accuracy modifer for level. I edited it to make it more clear.
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LOL was looking at States post and just noted this little tid bit added in the "before"
Even Con
Minion .5 (Base to Hit) -0.5187 (Radiation Infection To Hit Debuff) = -0.0187 or 5% chance to hit (minimum before Accuracy modifications)
Lieutenant 5.66%
Boss 13.13%
This would explain my confusion actually.
The two examples compare old but not factoring in acc modifier for level and maybe rank, to new factoring in everything.
Silly me I was expecting a "even or fair" comparision. Where we comapare the final with everything factored before to the final with everything factored after.
So actually if the "old" factored everything (and it was double hit) I would assume the +1 would actaully be this:
+1 Level
Minion (.5 * 1.1 <lvl modifier> ) - (0.5187 * .9 <lvl red. effectiveness modifier> ) = .08317
Lieutenant (.575 * 1.1 ) - (0.5187 * .9 * .9 <rank red. effectiveness modifier> ) = .212
Boss (.65 * 1.1 ) - (0.5187 * .9 * .8) = .3415
Dev post
+1 Level
Minion 8.32%
Lieutenant 15.85%
Boss 23.32%
Again the math could work out with rounding if in the past a double hit was not done for rank on effectiveess of THDB's
So either the reduced effectiveness for THDB in regards to rank was added with the Type B change or I7 or this was not factored in the original post.
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So that means what either Statsman is a lying cheething whhezel, incompentent boob, or cant do math? Not exactly a stellar reputation when he cant even get HIS OWN NUMBERS right.
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
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So that means what either Statsman is a lying cheething whhezel, incompentent boob, or cant do math? Not exactly a stellar reputation when he cant even get HIS OWN NUMBERS right.
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Good grief, Neko. The guys not a mathematician, he's got history degrees.
Somebody give this guy some proziac or something before he bursts a blood vessel.
Still here, even after all this time!
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So that means what either Statsman is a lying cheething whhezel, incompentent boob, or cant do math? Not exactly a stellar reputation when he cant even get HIS OWN NUMBERS right.
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Good grief, Neko. The guys not a mathematician, he's got history degrees.
Somebody give this guy some proziac or something before he bursts a blood vessel.
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im not the guy who tries to expain something and fails to get his own explination right
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
I agree that we should relax.
However, since states is a historian and not a mathmatition it would be nice if when he did post on the math that he posted the entire math so that who ever edits or overlooks his statements (which I would think someone does) catches these over sights.
It would also be nice to have it all posted too so we all can get a better understanding of what is going on. After all if one is confident in the changes, one should have no fear in allowing them to be viewed.
Maybe its just the way I grew up but if when I told my father about whatever ordeal was going on and simply left out the parts that reflected bad on me, it would be viewed as me lieing even though everything I stated may have been truth. Like the first post stating this change was due to HO's or the math that did not factor things, or if it did factor them right, then the posts past saying the things not factored were part of the game.
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I agree that we should relax.
However, since states is a historian and not a mathmatition it would be nice if when he did post on the math that he posted the entire math so that who ever edits or overlooks his statements (which I would think someone does) catches these over sights.
It would also be nice to have it all posted too so we all can get a better understanding of what is going on. After all if one is confident in the changes, one should have no fear in allowing them to be viewed.
Maybe its just the way I grew up but if when I told my father about whatever ordeal was going on and simply left out the parts that reflected bad on me, it would be viewed as me lieing even though everything I stated may have been truth. Like the first post stating this change was for SO's or the math that did not factor things, or if it did then the posts past saying these things were part of the game.
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i am relaxed, and agree with you 100%, but the fact is by statman own action hes either as you put it "a lier" or if he just donesn't know about the things he miss posts hes "incompetent"
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
I donot think errors in the math makes you "incompetent". I would state this is more a reflection of poor proof reading.
I am sure states can do math just fine. However with the complexity of the math for this game, I think a more detailed post would be easier to proof read. Either by himself, an editor, us, or all 3.
Which is all I would like to see. Because its clear even after an edit that things can be overlooked and left out. And when these things are posted as truth, yet later need to be edited it makes any confidence in simply trusting a post that states final values or gives partial math for the value a little shakey.
It would have been easier if in his math example, he did the math for a +2 lt in each before and after example rather then an even con minion for the before. That way we can see all the changes from before and after.
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To-Hit Debuff powers will likely see an overall change along with defense but it's more one in predictability and an overall increase of power not a loss.
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ToHit Debuff powers will see an overall change. It actually makes them less predictable since they now scale on a curve rather than a straight line, and the overall change in power is a loss, not an increase.