To Hit Debuff Enhancement Change Explained
By
Amber_Blaze,
Posted on: 2006-04-05 16:34 in Developers' Corner
Strange... I'm gonna have to wrap my mind around this 
I thought To-Hit debuffs were affected by the PURPLE PATCH ?
Edit: First Post 
After George Bust... err, Bush, began to use the phrase "stay the course". I pretty much learned to dislike the phrase. No difference here, except for a month or two of my Seeker Drones being less effective, then a nice large leap.
Still leaves a bitter taste, but it's betterr than what Bush force-fed us.
Now, watch as this topic explodes into a ball of political flames, and States escapes scott-free.
States, are you taking into account that +level mobs resist debuffs? Or is that changing in Issue 7 as well?
If the system remains as-is in that regard, then DEF will be calculated differently from ToHit debuff against +level mobs.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Statesman did a very good job explaining however I still need to hear your opinions on what this means. Is this a nerf to Rad Infection. Does this change have any effect on PvP? Basically I need laymens terms to explain.
I am PL in RL.
Freedom- Magnet Man, Hott Sauce, Stand-Up Comic
[ QUOTE ]
First: we are NOT changing Defense Debuff Enhancements at all. This was an error in the patch notes.
Let me clarify a few things about the To Hit Debuff Enhancement change (from Schedule A or 8/16/33 to Schedule B or 5/10/20).
_Castle_ was right that the decision was affected by Hamidon Enhancements though this was not the primary reason for the change. We needed to change the way To Hit Debuff Enhancements worked because of the upcoming I7 change to the To Hit calculations. There have always been some issues with Defense and Resistance. The former was affected by level differences, while the latter was not. For example, an even con would have a base to hit value of %, while a Boss 2 levels higher than a player would have a %. But if a player had damage resistance, it would apply the same discount to damage regardless of the mobs level.
In order to balance the playing field, we decided to give mobs the same base To Hit value instead (this was, in fact, brought up on the forums!). Now all mobs, regardless of level, have a base to hit of 50%. The only difference between ranks of mobs (boss, lieutenant and minion) and levels is the Accuracy.
In order to decipher this a little bit easier, lets take a look at the to hit formula.
(Base To Hit + To Hit Buffs - To Hit Debuffs Defense) capped at 5% or 95% * Accuracy (capped at 5% or 95%, again)
In the case of the Base To Hit Defense, the value is floored at ..05 or 5%. It cant go below that. Similarly, the result after being multiplied by Accuracy cant go higher than .95 or 95%.
Now lets take a look at the effect that the To Hit change has on the To Hit Debuff Enhancement change with Radiation Infection and a Defender.
Before
Radiation Infection has a base To Hit debuff of 2.5 * the Defenders Archetype boost of 0.125 = 0.3125. With 2 SOs under the Schedule A (a 66% increase to the Debuff), the end result would be 0.5187.
Heres a breakdown of how this would play out against various ranks and levels
Even Con
Minion .5 (Base to Hit) -0.5187 (Radiation Infection To Hit Debuff) = -0.0187 or 5% chance to hit (minimum before Accuracy modifications)
Lt. .58 - 0.5187 = 0.06125 or 6.125%.
Boss .65 - 0.5187 = 0.13125 or 13.125%.
+1 Level
Minion 55 -.05187 = 3.125% which becomes 5%.
Lt. 63 -.05187 = 11.125%
Boss 70 -.05187 = 18.125%
+2 Level
Minion .6 -.05187 = 13.125%
Lt. .68 -.05187 = 21.125%
Boss .75 -.05187 = 28.125%
+3 Level
Minion .65 -.05187 = 28.125%
Lt. .73 -.05187 = 36.125%
Boss .8 -.05187 = 43.125%
After the I7 change
Instead of changing the base to hit chance, we instead are changing Accuracy. Take an even con boss: his To Hit is only .5, but his Accuracy is 1.3. The net effect is that a boss still hits someone 65% of the time against someone without Defense, but with Defense, the equation changes substantially.
Lets take Radiation Infection again. Its a Schedule B now; with 2 SOs, the net result would be 0.3123 * 1.4 = 0.4372.
Every single mob has now been given Accuracy to make it so that their base To Hit value is only .5 rather than the values you see above.
Ill work it out a little more fully here with the To Hit Formula. Taking that boss mentioned above, his To Hit would work out like this
(0.5 - 0.4375) * 1.3 = 0.08125 or 8.125%.
Ill apply it below so that you can see the changes in action.
Even Con
Minion 6.25%
Lt. 7.1875%
Boss 8.125%
+1 Level
Minion 11.25%
Lt. 12.937%
Boss 14.625%
+2 Level
Minion 16.25%
Lt. 18.687%
Boss 21.125%
+3 Level
Minion 21.25%
Lt. 24.437%
Boss 27.625%
As you can see, the changes are quite noticeable. Minion to hit chances increase slightly in a few cases, Lieutenant changes decrease a tad, and Boss to hits really shrink. Radiation Infection REALLY comes into play at +3 levels!
Ideally, the Enhancement change shouldve gone hand in hand with I7. To be honest, there was an error there. Unfortunately, we discovered that we couldnt pull the change out without jeopardizing the I7 release schedule. Right now, QA (at NCSoft and Cryptic) is working away at I7 and shaking out bugs. If we were to roll back this change, our teams would need to put I7 aside and retest the current build. I made the decision to stay the course instead.
[/ QUOTE ]
can you explain how this change might affect dark defenders, rad defenders/controllers and storm defenders/controllers in pvp (where there is an abundance of to-hit bufffs flying around)?
[ QUOTE ]
States, are you taking into account that +level mobs resist debuffs? Or is that changing in Issue 7 as well?
If the system remains as-is in that regard, then DEF will be calculated differently from ToHit debuff against +level mobs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I thought all power effects were less effective against higher level oponents? Is that being removed too? or is there some reason why it doesn't effect this case?
Always remember, we were Heroes.
Is this a nerf to Rad Infection?
In some ways yes in others no. Versus a minion the power gets reduced in effectiveness but versus a higher ranking foe it is increased. This won't be fully realized until I7 though so for thet time being it's unfortunately just a nerf 
Does this change have any effect on PvP?
Yes, the power will be less effective in PvP as the maximum debuff value is being decreased.
Basically I need laymens terms to explain.
Hope I helped.
And since there isn't going to be any adjustment to the to-hit and defence in PvP, that means it is going to just reduce To-Hit Debuff effectiveness in PvP, a nerf... RIGHT???
[ QUOTE ]
Strange... I'm gonna have to wrap my mind around this
I thought To-Hit debuffs were affected by the PURPLE PATCH ?
[/ QUOTE ]
If they are not its news to me.
But i think this is true, States. All debuffs, even to hit debufs, became weaker against higher level enemies.
Or was this never the case?
[ QUOTE ]
And since there isn't going to be any adjustment to the to-hit and defence in PvP, that means it is going to just reduce To-Hit Debuff effectiveness in PvP, a nerf... RIGHT???
[/ QUOTE ]
Correct. A PvP nerf for PvE reasons. RELEASE THE HOUNDS!
Positron has said during the Purple Patch days that tohit debuffs were affected by level changes in addition to the level bonuses that critters got for tohit buffs.
Which is true? Or did you forget to check that ... just like the EF nerf where you forgot to check the data files in addition to the code.
-Teklord
I really appreciate the explaination, after I7 it looks like debuffers will be even more wanted on large teams.
My only concern is how it will affect the soloability of debuffers, especially rad/ and dark/ defenders since even and +1 mobs are still going to hit more than they do now. I rarely use RI against anything except bosses anyway so its probably not a big deal.
Thanks States. As others have pointed out however, If you could confirm that to-hit debuffs aren't affected by the purple patch and or that the calcs are accurate as described.
Phantom Rose: Ill / Kin / Psi
Soleau: Ice / Icy / Ice / Core: Ice / Fire / Pyre / Wind / Eclipse / Flare / Corona
---------------
Solo Space
[ QUOTE ]
States, are you taking into account that +level mobs resist debuffs?
[/ QUOTE ]
It looks like he is, but I'm not sure about his figures. It looks like, for example, at +3, RI is reduced to around 76% effectiveness in his calculations, whereas the last numbers I've seen -- and damage numbers I think bear this out -- indicate that at +3 levels, your powers are only 65% effective, in which case a +3 minion would have a
1.3*(0.5-0.65*0.4372)=28.1%
chance to hit, not 21%.
I'd like to see the numbers broken down again, and a bit more carefully. At first glance, they don't appear to be quite right. And the pre-I7 numbers look quite fishy as well.
(Not trying to be ungrateful or snarky; just calling it like I see it.)
EDIT:
He's obviously applying some form of reduction in the effectiveness of the debuff, otherwise a +3 minoin's chance to hit would be
1.3*(0.5-0.4372) = 8.1%,
rather than the 21% he's showing. I'm just not sure about his number for how much less effective it becomes.
Actually, these sums don't work out
[ QUOTE ]
+1 Level
Minion 55 -.05187 = 3.125% which becomes 5%.
Lt. 63 -.05187 = 11.125%
Boss 70 -.05187 = 18.125%
[/ QUOTE ]
These work out, assuming that .05187 is supposed to be 0.5187 (from earlier in the example)
[ QUOTE ]
+2 Level
Minion .6 -.05187 = 13.125%
Lt. .68 -.05187 = 21.125%
Boss .75 -.05187 = 28.125%
[/ QUOTE ]
All these are 5% higher than they should be, for example the boss calculation should be: 75% - 51.87% = 23.13%, not 28.125%
[ QUOTE ]
+3 Level
Minion .65 -.05187 = 28.125%
Lt. .73 -.05187 = 36.125%
Boss .8 -.05187 = 43.125%
[/ QUOTE ]
Similarly, for the boss 80% - 51.87% = 28.13%, not 43.125%
So, either your numbers are wrong, or you are including the fact that the debuffs are less effective against higher level opponents (though how it scales doesn't match up with what I thought the scaling was), and just not showing it in the workings.
Could you maybe double check, and do a full worked example, with real numbers, please?
Oh, and one for how it will effect PvP for those that are interested.
EDIT: for spelling, plus this
Given that this
[ QUOTE ]
Foes your level have not changed. You have a 75% chance to hit and your powers are 100% effective.
Foes 1 level above you - No Change. You have a 68% chance to hit and your powers are 90% effective.
Foes 2 levels above you - No Change. You have a 61% chance to hit and your powers are 80% effective.
Foes 3 levels above you - You have a 55% chance to hit and your powers are 65% effective.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is how I thought powers scaled, i guesstimate that the pre-changes bit should work out like this,
Pre-17
+3s (assuming debuffs are 65% as effective as normal)
Minion: 0.65 - (0.5187*0.65) = 31.28%
Lt: 0.73-(0.5187*0.65) = 39.28%
Boss: 0.8 - (0.5187*0.65) = 46.28%
Something like that, anyhow.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
The biggest problem with this change is it makes it a lot more difficult for debuff defenders to solo. +1 minions are now hitting you over 2X as much as they did before. Also many minions have mezzes which shut off the debuff, so the change will really lead to even more hits by a spawn of 3 +1 minions.
While the change makes debuff defenders better able to handle large high level groups, they've really taken a hit while soloing.
Thank you *VERY* much for the clarifications on reasonings behind all this. I think the only questions I have left now are...
<ul type="square"> [*] As asked upthread, does the purple patch double ding affect this still? Or is that gone?[*] Was the fact that in PVP all people con evenly taken into account for this? This seems that it was (as seen from outside your end) as something to even the field more closely in PVP.[*] From the PVE perspective, as people in teams often fight above level, this seems good. Was this an accident of numbers or by design?[*] To alleviate the fears of the community, can we get breakdowns of this by the main powers that would be affected, and what their current and I7 values would be? Specifically, the true debuff values of Radiation Infection, Hurricane, and Darkest Night?[/list]
I'll leave the specific number crunching/review for the math people downthread...
Thanks again, for answering.
Ok, hell has frozen over a pvp nerf to help pve. I have seen it all now. Well while we have you here can you explain the mastermind personal force field change and the upcoming buff we might be getting. Is it Pet-voke or not?
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Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
This is a lot to take in. I like seeing actual numbers, but i'd really appreciate a more laymens terms to this too. From what i've read the changes are goin to go like this:
Pre-i7
Target == Level == Chance to Hit you
Minion == Even == 5%
Luet. == Even == 6%
Boss == Even == 13%
Minion == +1 == 5%
Luet. == +1 == 11%
Boss == +1 == 18%
Minion == +2 == 13%
Leut. == +2 == 21%
Boss == +2 == 28%
Minon == +3 == 28%
Leut. == +3 == 36%
Boss == +3 == 48%
Post-i7
Minion == Even == 6%
Luet. == Even == 7%
Boss == Even == 8%
Minion == +1 == 11%
Luet. == +1 == 13%
Boss == +1 == 15%
Minion == +2 == 16%
Leut. == +2 == 19%
Boss == +2 == 21%
Minon == +3 == 21%
Leut. == +3 == 24%
Boss == +3 == 28%
Am I correct on this or did I missread something?
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Agreed; something's wonky with those numbers.
[ QUOTE ]
Pre-i7
Minion == Even == 5%
Luet. == Even == 6%
Boss == Even == 13%
Post-i7
Minion == Even == 6%
Luet. == Even == 7%
Boss == Even == 8%
[/ QUOTE ]
Assuming that the debuff resist / purple patch doesn't apply and the numbers States gave us are correct -- the above should be pretty reassuring!
Essentially, debuffs now are going to affect minions less, but LTs and Bosses more. Which means the hardest, nastiest foes you face will actally hit you less than they would've in a pre-I7 world. It evens out the curve.
Sure, you can't floor a minion's accuracy anymore, but otherwise this is effectively a BUFF to to-hit debuff powers, handy as heck in PVE when facing down lots of advanced enemies. I hate to think of how good this'd be against an AV if it's this good against a boss...
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Mission Architect Works: DIY Laser Moonbase (Dev Choice!), An Internship in the Fine Art of Revenge (2009 MA Award Winner!) and many more! Plus Brand New Arcs for Issue 21!
Wait, I'm confused about the post... so the cops knew internal affairs were setting them up?
/relief!
So glad that what I thought could be a gross nerf might turn out to be a slight buff! Horay for bunnies!
Thanks to Statesman for getting an answer out to us so soon. I'm satisfied, and content to wait out this dark period untill 17 hits, but I think there are some PvPers who still have a few questions for you...
Paragon Unleashed, Unleash Yourself!
Well now that you've explained the To Hit changes can you please explain to us (as simply as possible) how the Defense Scale changes will work. I know they're supposed to be similar to this type of change, but i'm not a numbers person. Can we just get a summery of how that will work for Defense Sets?
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-World Wide Evil, Inc-[50s]Soulfire�Perma.Frost�Kold Soul�Foxphyre�Pitch-Black�Corrupt Fusion�Cassanova Brown�Tyler Thorn�Iron Siren�Solaura�Fortunauta Wade�Look'Alike�Arctic Engineer
First: we are NOT changing Defense Debuff Enhancements at all. This was an error in the patch notes.
Let me clarify a few things about the To Hit Debuff Enhancement change (from Schedule A or 8/16/33 to Schedule B or 5/10/20).
_Castle_ was right that the decision was affected by Hamidon Enhancements though this was not the primary reason for the change. We needed to change the way To Hit Debuff Enhancements worked because of the upcoming I7 change to the To Hit calculations. There have always been some issues with Defense and Resistance. The former was affected by level differences, while the latter was not. For example, an even con would have a base to hit value of %, while a Boss 2 levels higher than a player would have a %. But if a player had damage resistance, it would apply the same discount to damage regardless of the mobs level.
In order to balance the playing field, we decided to give mobs the same base To Hit value instead (this was, in fact, brought up on the forums!). Now all mobs, regardless of level, have a base to hit of 50%. The only difference between ranks of mobs (boss, lieutenant and minion) and levels is the Accuracy.
In order to decipher this a little bit easier, lets take a look at the to hit formula.
(Base To Hit + To Hit Buffs - (To Hit Debuffs * Combat Mod) Defense) capped at 5% or 95% * Accuracy (capped at 5% or 95%, again)
In the case of the Base To Hit Defense, the value is floored at ..05 or 5%. It cant go below that. Similarly, the result after being multiplied by Accuracy cant go higher than .95 or 95%
The To Hit chance also increased over level. A +1 level had a 1.05 modifier, +2 level 1.1 and +3 1.15. For example, the base to hit chance of a lieutenant +2 levels was .58*1.1 or 63.8%.
Now lets take a look at the effect that the To Hit change has on the To Hit Debuff Enhancement change with Radiation Infection and a Defender.
Before
Radiation Infection has a base To Hit debuff of 2.5 * the Defenders Archetype boost of 0.125 = 0.3125. With 2 SOs under the Schedule A (a 66% increase to the Debuff), the end result would be 0.5187.
Heres a breakdown of how this would play out against various ranks and levels
Even Con
Minion .5 (Base to Hit) -0.5187 (Radiation Infection To Hit Debuff) = -0.0187 or 5% chance to hit (minimum before Accuracy modifications)
Lieutenant 5.66%
Boss 13.13%
+1 Level
Minion 8.32%
Lieutenant 15.85%
Boss 23.32%
+2 Levels
Minion 18.50%
Lieutenant 26.03%
Boss 33.50%
+3 Levels
Minion 31.28%
Lieutenant 38.81%
Boss 46.28%
After the I7 change
Instead of changing the base to hit chance, we instead are changing Accuracy. Take an even con boss: his To Hit is only .5, but his Accuracy is 1.3. The net effect is that a boss still hits someone 65% of the time against someone without Defense, but with Defense, the equation changes substantially.
Lets take Radiation Infection again. Its a Schedule B now; with 2 SOs, the net result would be 0.3123 * 1.4 = 0.4372.
Every single mob has now been given Accuracy to make it so that their base To Hit value is only .5 rather than the values you see above. In addition, higher ranks have an inherent resistance to To Hit Debuffs (.1 for Lts., .2 for Bosses, .3 for AVs).
Ill work it out a little more fully here with the To Hit Formula. Taking that boss mentioned above, his To Hit would work out like this
(0.5 - (0.4375*.8)) * 1.3 = 0.1950 or 19.50%.
Whereas previously, the To Hit chance had a level modifier, now that applies to Accuracy. +1 level is 1.1, +2 1.2, and +3 1.3. A lt.'s base To Hit is then .5*1.15*1.2 or .69/69%.
Ill apply it below so that you can see the changes in action.
Even Con
Minion 6.25%
Lieutenant 12.23%
Boss 19.50%
+1 Level
Minion 11.69%
Lieutenant 18.43%
Boss 26.46%
+2 Levels
Minion 18.00%
Lieutenant 25.54%
Boss 34.32%
+3 Levels
Minion 28.03%
Lieutenant 36.51%
Boss 46.05%
Ideally, the Enhancement change shouldve gone hand in hand with I7. To be honest, there was an error there. Unfortunately, we discovered that we couldnt pull the change out without jeopardizing the I7 release schedule. Right now, QA (at NCSoft and Cryptic) is working away at I7 and shaking out bugs. If we were to roll back this change, our teams would need to put I7 aside and retest the current build. I made the decision to stay the course instead.