To Hit Debuff Enhancement Change Explained
By
Amber_Blaze,
Posted on: 2006-04-05 16:34 in Developers' Corner
I've already said repeatedly that I think the Management at Cryptic is completely out of their gourd.
1. For continuously alienating the people who are actually into their game enough to keep testing this garbage they spew.
2. For the completely inexcusable manner they've run this whole company and the simply UNBELIEVABLE amount of "mistakes" that have been made.
Seriously, once or twice, heck even three times I can live with. But debacle after debacle is completely unacceptable.
This is your JOB. Do it right and seriously, have some pride for crying out loud.
Excuse my anger.
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So yeah, I'm soooooooo inclined to believe this nerf really affects I7's timeline. If you believe that, I have a bridge I can sell you in San Franscisco *wink*.
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I'm a professional software developer, and depending on their build protocols and source control tools, rolling back one specific change could indeed throw the schedule off. I don't know any of their specifics, but it's believable.
Let's get to the heart of the matter.
Defense is getting a Huge increase in I7, and it was desperately needed to bring it in line with other powers.
tohit debuffing was riding the same gravy train, and I'm guessing that the devs thought it would be too godly. You have two choices to fix it. Nerf the base values, or reduce the enhancement schedule.
Which one would you want?
From what I'm seeing, the lower end mobs are affected less by tohit debuffs, but they are still going to be brought down pretty low.
On the other hand, debuffing more powerful mobs (like AV's) debuffers are coming out ahead of where they are today.
The only part that I feel sorry about, is the time period where this patch goes live and before I7. That is the only time where your powers will be reduced significantly. Once I7 hits, the low end won't hit the caps but you'll be stronger at the higher end.
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There's a difference.
This isn't anyone's job. There are two community reps: Cuppa and Awry. No one else has to come here and tell us squat.
That they do rocks. That they don't get it right sucks. That they have promised to get it right and not done so sucks. I want it to get better, bad and right now. But it just ain't their damn job.
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Whether or not communicating accurate information about the game to the players is techincally part of the job description of the developers is not really relevant IMO.
Producing the patch notes must be part of someone at Cryptic's job (as opposed to NCSoft where Cuppa and Awry work) since they make the changes. And I think its pretty clear that the person or person's responsible has not been doing a good job of keeping accurate, informative patch notes ever since the game went live. States has acknowledged that Cryptic, specifically, must improve in this regard, and yet nothing has changed. Significant changes have continued to go to test in an undocumented or poorly explained fashion.
How many years does it take to learn how to do this task compentently? How much community good-will is Cryptic willing to continue to squander by letting this sorry state of affairs continue? Jack and the other developers will have to answer those questions for themselves.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
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What numbers are you using for Dark Miasma?
_Castle_ quoted Darkest Night at 18.5%. Both Fearsome Stare and Twilight Grasp are about half that, Chill of the Night is about equal to Darkest Night. Tar Patch does enhance damage debuffs numbers, but the resistance debuff can also be resisted. Nobody knows whether or not it will affect the ToHit Debuff resistance.
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States used 31.25% for RI in his example. I highly doubt that there is such a big different between RI and DN. Something is wrong..
Dysmal, I agree with you. I was specifically answering MonkeyB's commentary on how doing the same would result in loss of a job. Well, I don't think the two rally can compare.
Should they do this right? Yes. However, complaining for people to lose jobs when they're doing something they don't have to do at all is just stupid and does us no damn good. IMO. They could just not bother much. They could make all the patch notes completely abstract. They wouldn't be the first people to do so.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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States used 31.25% for RI in his example. I highly doubt that there is such a big different between RI and DN. Something is wrong..
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Are we sure? As discussed, Darkest night does more than debuff toHit - it is a significant damage debuff. To my knowledge, RI debuffs only toHit.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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States used 31.25% for RI in his example. I highly doubt that there is such a big different between RI and DN. Something is wrong..
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Are we sure? As discussed, Darkest night does more than debuff toHit - it is a significant damage debuff. To my knowledge, RI debuffs only toHit.
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Isn't RI defense AND tohit?
You are correct sir. Used to thinking of it as a defensive power, I forgot this.
That is fairly interesting. Anyone have player-tested numbers on RI? I thought the 18.5 DN value was pretty well established by players.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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You are correct sir. Used to thinking of it as a defensive power, I forgot this.
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Which is funny, when I used to play my rad defender and controller on Protector, I thought of it and slotted the other way around. Another reason rad is so popular...
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What numbers are you using for Dark Miasma?
_Castle_ quoted Darkest Night at 18.5%. Both Fearsome Stare and Twilight Grasp are about half that, Chill of the Night is about equal to Darkest Night. Tar Patch does enhance damage debuffs numbers, but the resistance debuff can also be resisted. Nobody knows whether or not it will affect the ToHit Debuff resistance.
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States used 31.25% for RI in his example. I highly doubt that there is such a big different between RI and DN. Something is wrong..
[/ QUOTE ] _castle_'s post link
DARKEST NIGHT 1.5 * 0.125 = 0.1875 or 18.75%
the 1.95 is for the schl A enhancements
Three slotted with schedule A it doesn't even floor minions. From your experience, is that the way it works currently?
Last time I played a DDD was befor I2, but as far as I remember they both gave very similar results when I switched to a rad/.
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Three slotted with schedule A it doesn't even floor minions. From your experience, is that the way it works currently?
[/ QUOTE ] Yea, Soul-Crusher gets hit about 1 out of every 8 or 9 times from every white minion in the AOE 
And they ALL turn to attack when it's turned on 
I should have named him Aggro-Magnet
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What numbers are you using for Dark Miasma?
_Castle_ quoted Darkest Night at 18.5%. Both Fearsome Stare and Twilight Grasp are about half that, Chill of the Night is about equal to Darkest Night. Tar Patch does enhance damage debuffs numbers, but the resistance debuff can also be resisted. Nobody knows whether or not it will affect the ToHit Debuff resistance.
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States used 31.25% for RI in his example. I highly doubt that there is such a big different between RI and DN. Something is wrong..
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I confirmed both values via PM from _Castle_ a few days ago (actually DN is 18.75%). There's a post with the details here
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I confirmed both values via PM from _Castle_ a few days ago (actually DN is 18.75%). There's a post with the details here
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Ideally, the Enhancement change shouldve gone hand in hand with I7. To be honest, there was an error there. Unfortunately, we discovered that we couldnt pull the change out without jeopardizing the I7 release schedule. Right now, QA (at NCSoft and Cryptic) is working away at I7 and shaking out bugs. If we were to roll back this change, our teams would need to put I7 aside and retest the current build. I made the decision to stay the course instead.
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This issue keeps repeating itself. I have lost count of how many times something went in "by mistake". This is a systemic problem you should address at the source.
Someone needs to review the build for correctness while there is still time to redo it without such a severe impact on schedules.
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It's time for Cryptic and NCsoft to make clear, accurate, number-based patch notes a business commitment to its clients. Because it saves time and effort, fosters good relations, and it's the heroic thing to do.
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It's not always easy when you have only a few minutes to grab what you hope are the right numbers and create your post before having to run off to do all the other important things, all while scarfing down the last of your sandwich and drinking the last of your cold coffee. Mistakes happen when things get busy.
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DONT BS FOR THEM
STATESMAN said himself they would make clearer patches, their hasent been a patch in MONTHS aside from fixing the /cov bug.
Jack has NO justification for not having good patch notes on the FIRST chance to make a patch note in MONTHS since he promised to inprove.
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
Ding. Basically, paid or unpaid, someone's job or not... someone needs to come forward as the sacrificial lamb for the continuous cycle of crap that has been put forward. Note the wording I use, "sacrificial lamb". I say this because I'm sure that Statesman et al won't own up to it but offer up a poor innocent soul in their place.
...
Either that or a REALLY crappy/lame excuse for it and a "sincere" promise to do better.
Bitter? Yeah, but that's what happens when you've dealt with almost 2 years of this crap.
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I confirmed both values via PM from _Castle_ a few days ago (actually DN is 18.75%). There's a post with the details here
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That was as clear as mud....
The terms really aren't well standardized, which is probably a bit of what is holding up "revealing" the real numbers.
Still here, even after all this time!
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It's time for Cryptic and NCsoft to make clear, accurate, number-based patch notes a business commitment to its clients. Because it saves time and effort, fosters good relations, and it's the heroic thing to do.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not always easy when you have only a few minutes to grab what you hope are the right numbers and create your post before having to run off to do all the other important things, all while scarfing down the last of your sandwich and drinking the last of your cold coffee. Mistakes happen when things get busy.
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DONT BS FOR THEM
STATESMAN said himself they would make clearer patches, their hasent been a patch in MONTHS aside from fixing the /cov bug.
Jack has NO justification for not having good patch notes on the FIRST chance to make a patch note in MONTHS since he promised to inprove.
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From everything I've learned about Cryptic, they seem to me to be currently understaffed. This means that a lot of people working on this game are pulling more than their fair share. It also means that a lot more mistakes are bound to crawl into the woodwork that with a fully staffed team. The effort these guys are putting forth it's a wonder that the game has turned out to be as good as it has. You really should be praising them instead of berating them. Sure, call them on their mistakes and keep them focused, but stop ripping into them when something slip by them that would have slipped by anyone working in their situation.
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AV's resist damage Debuffs HEAVILY, there's something definintely wrong with your math if you actually believe an AV's DPS will be put at 43% from a single Defender.
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You're right. I left the resistance to the damage debuff part out, though not the toHit debuff.
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You need 3 or 4 of the same kind of defenders to Floor +2 and +3 AV's, nomatter what primary you're talking about.
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Just to be clear, I did not describe flooring the AV anywhere in my post. Nor did I use a +3 AV as my example.
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Have you even spent any real time in all-defender Teams?
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All Corruptor.
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Your rosey tinted glasses suggest otherwise, expecially when you consider each Defender's -ACC capacity with 3 SO's will drop by 40% as soon as this patch goes live.
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You would do well to realize that the accuracy numbers I used are based on I7 math, using the reduced schedule enhancers. The tables I pasted match Statesman's to the 2nd decimal place if you use the value for RI and two shcedule B toHit debuff enhancers instead of DN and 3 (which is what I did).
Your feel for what it takes to floor foes doesn't mean much anyway. It's based on today's toHit calculations, which are significantly different. Stacking toHit debuffs is incredibly powerful in I7.
Correcting my earlier statements to account for 20% damage debuff resistance on a +2 AV.
So let's pick a +2 AV. One DDD would drop him to .6016/.9*(1-(0.8*.35)) = 48% of his damage. One character would do that for the entire team. TWO DDDs running DN would drop a +2 AV to 17.48% of his original damage output.
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What about a couple of masterminds? What about Weaken? What about flash arrow? This nerf effects a hell of alot more than just one set. I wish everyone would get off Dark's nuts and realize that there are other sets where this is a flat nerf that they don't need.
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Heh. My fault. I brought up dark because of all the sets, it uses ToHit Debuffs the most. I know there are quite a few different sets that use them too... Rad/ Storm/ Necro/ (MM) /Devices (Blaster) just to name a few.
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It's time for Cryptic and NCsoft to make clear, accurate, number-based patch notes a business commitment to its clients. Because it saves time and effort, fosters good relations, and it's the heroic thing to do.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not always easy when you have only a few minutes to grab what you hope are the right numbers and create your post before having to run off to do all the other important things, all while scarfing down the last of your sandwich and drinking the last of your cold coffee. Mistakes happen when things get busy.
[/ QUOTE ]
DONT BS FOR THEM
STATESMAN said himself they would make clearer patches, their hasent been a patch in MONTHS aside from fixing the /cov bug.
Jack has NO justification for not having good patch notes on the FIRST chance to make a patch note in MONTHS since he promised to inprove.
[/ QUOTE ]
From everything I've learned about Cryptic, they seem to me to be currently understaffed. This means that a lot of people working on this game are pulling more than their fair share. It also means that a lot more mistakes are bound to crawl into the woodwork that with a fully staffed team. The effort these guys are putting forth it's a wonder that the game has turned out to be as good as it has. You really should be praising them instead of berating them. Sure, call them on their mistakes and keep them focused, but stop ripping into them when something slip by them that would have slipped by anyone working in their situation.
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If you cant deliver on a promised service posted in your public forums, a promis to your custoimer, you will get berated, you have absolty no justification for FAILING to do what you said to do.
FACT: Jack said they deplorable patch notes would end
FACT: he had months
FACT: he FAILED
OPINION: HE SHOULD BE FIRED FOR INCOMPETENCE
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
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If you cant deliver on a promised service posted in your public forums, a promis to your custoimer, you will get berated, you have absolty no justification for FAILING to do what you said to do.
FACT: Jack said they deplorable patch notes would end
FACT: he had months
FACT: he FAILED
OPINION: HE SHOULD BE FIRED FOR INCOMPETENCE
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I think the "fact" that the *live* notes are deplorable is highly subjective. Most of the missed notes on patches have been to test, which I find as acceptable as that's part of the test process.
Still here, even after all this time!
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If you cant deliver on a promised service posted in your public forums, a promis to your custoimer, you will get berated, you have absolty no justification for FAILING to do what you said to do.
FACT: Jack said they deplorable patch notes would end
FACT: he had months
FACT: he FAILED
OPINION: HE SHOULD BE FIRED FOR INCOMPETENCE
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I think the "fact" that the *live* notes are deplorable is highly subjective. Most of the missed notes on patches have been to test, which I find as acceptable as that's part of the test process.
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Agreed, yo.
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If you cant deliver on a promised service posted in your public forums, a promis to your custoimer, you will get berated, you have absolty no justification for FAILING to do what you said to do.
FACT: Jack said they deplorable patch notes would end
FACT: he had months
FACT: he FAILED
OPINION: HE SHOULD BE FIRED FOR INCOMPETENCE
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the "fact" that the *live* notes are deplorable is highly subjective. Most of the missed notes on patches have been to test, which I find as acceptable as that's part of the test process.
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you find it Acceptable that the Tester have to test the game to find out whats changed.
You find it acceptable that the staff is so imcomplent they cant even tell the peopel who volenter to test things what their testing "Bob i want you to test this microwave" "for what" "uh boss ive got cancer" "oh ya that one of the ting we wanted you to test, see our new mictrowaves cause cancer, is the cancer reacting as we expected" "how is it expected to react" "....."
3 days later "its supose to grow at a exponetial rate of 3 inches a day"
if Jack was working at my Job he be FIRED
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
There's a difference.
This isn't anyone's job. There are two community reps: Cuppa and Awry. No one else has to come here and tell us squat.
That they do rocks. That they don't get it right sucks. That they have promised to get it right and not done so sucks. I want it to get better, bad and right now. But it just ain't their damn job.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA