[ QUOTE ]
just create a new toon at I2's release.
[/ QUOTE ]
If that works for you, then that's great! If your badge collector character was made after Issue 2 (and the introduction of badge) then you had the opportunity to get it. Congratulations. 
Every character I've created since Issue 2 has Isolator.
HOWEVER my main character;
the character I made the first week of release,
the character I still play several times a week,
the character that still has his very first costume
the character that has been respec'd 6 times due to nerfs
and the character that is my main badge collector
does not have Isolator. And currently, he has no way to get Isolator. He was never given a chance to get it, because it wasn't there. And there was no way I was rerolling him because of all the time and levels invested in him already.
My 2nd 50 was also Pre-Issue 2, but he's not my badge collector character, so I don't care about getting it him. My main, Emerald Fusion, is my badge collector character, and I would like to get Isolator on him. It's that simple.
All we (Pro-Isolators) are asking for is a way to do that. Make us jump through as many hoops as you want to get it, just give us the same chance everyone else has had since Issue 2.
I don't understand why anyone (devs/player) would deny any Pre-Issue 2 character a chance from getting Isolator.
The badge text still applies to us "started our career on a high note". We sure did, we took a chance on a game and a company that very few had heard of before, and it paid off. Big Time! Please reward your loyal customers Cryptic!
Fusion Force
I just want the Isolator badge available for my pre-I2 toon. I don't want re-roll, and I'm pretty sure the devs don't want to force me into a situation where I should reroll, or else they wouldn't have added the ability to respec. So far we've had the chance to go back and experience content that our toons have outleveled from the new issues given, which meant that we can get new badges implemented that normally we wouldn't be able to do. The devs seemed fine with this, and it probably was even their intention. Isolator is the only exception, so why can't the devs just let people who never had the chance to get just one chance, like all the post-I2 characters? This would be fair for the toons that got it, because now ALL toons ever created would have the one chance that now only the post-I2 toons have. I apologize if this sounds confusing, I think I'm a little confused myself over my sentence structure...
[ QUOTE ]
And there was no way I was rerolling him because of all the time and levels invested in him already.
[/ QUOTE ]
Like Ive stated over and over and over and over and over again... I'll restate it ONE last time. That was your choice. Time & lvls invested is just a cop out. Noone was standing behind you telling you to not roll a toon and obtain Isolator at I2. You choose NOT to earn Isolator. That was your choice. My choice was to earn it. So, what do you propose I get for my efforts? Its not fair to me that you just be awarded a way to earn Isolator that I had to lvl up a new toon for.
Ok here is a compromise... and should make everyone happy. Give you folks a way to earn Isolator. And I'll gladly take both 
Problem solved. Surely there is no way you can argue with that. I get 2 badges to showcase my desire to roll a new toon around I2 and you folks get your Isolator badge. Problem solved.
[ QUOTE ]
(1) CUSTOMER SERVICE
A large number of people do want this badge on their pre-i2 characters. Allowing us to get this badge will make us happy. Happy customers are loyal customers and more likely to remain customers in the future. The quick growth of threads like this one shows that there is a large demand for the badge.
[/ QUOTE ]
The devs doing something because the customers want it is *not* a valid reason to do something. I bet for every person out there that would like some way to get Isolator on the hero that missed it, there are 40 or 50 that really don't care and have much more inportant things they wouldlike changed. In the whole scheme of things that people want in CoH, getting a badge added is, IMO, insignificant.
[ QUOTE ]
(2) FAIRNESS
Isolator is unique of all the badges. It is the only badge that has ever been released which could not be obtained by characters in existence at the time it was created. Anyone who entered CoH after i2 can get this badge, but pre-i2 characters cannot. Even those few who actually met the requirements for getting the badge before i2 cannot get the badge.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would like to have sympathy for people in this situation, I really would but, in all honesty, I don't. You made your character before the badge was available. Oh well.
[ QUOTE ]
(1) TOO DIFFICULT TO IMPLEMENT
The devs have better things to do with their time. Why bother?
Well, you bother because it would make your customers happy. In any event, this objection has been answered many times over. It would be dead easy to stick a contaminated spawn in Atlas Park or Galaxy City. Heck, in the Snaptooth missions, up on the northwest part of the map, a group of low level monkeys appear and start fighting among themselves. This appears to have been done simply as a joke. If the mission is being made anyway, and it needs to be populated with villains anyway, and if they have time to put in funny monkeys, they can easily add in one or two contaminated. Problem solved. There will be more temporary Pocket D missions. Throw some in there.
[/ QUOTE ]
Like I mentioned above, there are a lot of people who really don't care about the badges and would rather see other things introduced into the game. Going directly by the number of people it would make happy, removing ED seems like the best way to make a lot of people happy, but it really doesn't look like that is going to happen. Adding a mission that gives contaminated, while it seems trivial, would not be. How do you scale the contaminated to toons that have levelled up and have SOs slotted into their 1st level powers and make it a challenge for them while not making it impossible for those with TOs. What level/AT do you scale it for?
[ QUOTE ]
(2) YOU CAN GET ISOLATOR IF YOU WANT
Nobody is preventing you from getting Isolator. Just roll another toon.
This one is simplistic almost beyond words. The whole point of the discussion is about getting Isolator on pre-i2 toons. Therefore, the entire argument here is totally irrelevant.
[/ QUOTE ]
Pre-I2, the badge didn't exist and there was no way for your toon to get the badge. So you are angry that the devs aren't allowing you to get something that you couldn't get when your toon was at the appropriate level for it. To me, that is like trying to get a Sausage and Egg McMuffin at 6PM and throwing a fit about it.
[ QUOTE ]
(3) IT DOESNT MATTER
So what if your character doesnt have this badge? It doesnt do anything. Get over it.
Well, it matters to me, and to many other people by all accounts. Besides, as you pointed out, it doesnt matter can go either way. If it doesnt matter, then let us earn it. Badge collecting is a part of the game. Its important to some of us, just like PvP is important to others. Just because it isnt important to you doesnt not somehow prove that it is objectively unimportant.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly, if it doesn't do anything and is really only a trivial and minor part of the game, we would rather the devs not spend their time in fixing what you percieve as a mistake to be corrected.
[ QUOTE ]
(4) YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE BUT YOU MISSED IT
I rerolled my main character when badges first came out so that I could get it. You could have done the same, but you missed out.
This one, in my opinion, is just unreasonable. This position says that you must be willing to just throw away hundreds of hours of progress and advancement for the badge. Furthermore, by now this wouldnt be useful for badge collectors to do, as all the special event badges would be lost. There was only about a two month window in which this could have been done before the Halloween badges came along. During that period, the devs were talking about implementing a Flashback System so that older, outleveled content could be experienced. Thus, there was every reason to expect that eventually our pre-i2 characters could get Isolator without rerolling, if we would just be patient. Since then, the devs have scrapped the parts of the flashback system which would have made this possible. So we should lose out because we trusted the devs?
[/ QUOTE ]
Note my emphasis in bold in your paragraph above. YOu say ityourself that there was a window in which you could have obtained the Isolator badge on your main badge collector and you wouldn't have lost anything. You made the choice to not-re-roll and must live with the consequences of that decision.
[ QUOTE ]
(5) THE BADGE TEXT WOULD BE MESSED UP
It says you began your career on a high note. If you get Isolator at lvl 50, its not the beginning of your career now, is it?
With apologies to LiquidX, this one is just a bit silly. Its easily fixed. Or, like I wrote earlier in this thread, just pretend that you DID kill 100 contaminated right at the start. (The writer of your comic book just glossed over that part to move the plot along.) Its a role-playing game, isnt it?
[/ QUOTE ]
You are trivializing the concerns of two groups of people here. The people who did delete their badge collectors after I2 came out to get Isolator. They did it the hard way and sacrificed for it, and by your asking for it to be available anytime, you are trivializing the effort they put into it.
The other people are the ones who do RP their hero and feel that the badges represent what their hero went through. The badge states "You began your career...". While you may feel that this is a silly argument, to those people it isn't.
[ QUOTE ]
(7) PERSONAL ATTACKS
Youre all just a bunch of whiners who want to show off your uber l337 status. Or You dont have it - HA HA get over it!
An ad hominem can be (and has been) used in all of the objections above. But theyre so common that I thought they deserved their own category. In my opinion, such arguments actually support the other side of the debate. After all, if your position is really so weak that you have to resort to tactics like these, then perhaps the opposing side is right.
[/ QUOTE ]
They may be an exaggeration of your position, but that does not render them invalid. A fallacy in an debate only means that the reasons supporting the conclusion are weak. You are still required to prove that the argument is completely false. And in this case, since it is clear that you do want the badges, the statements are not completely wrong, are they.
I would love to see the reactions of the many anti-isolator players out there that are badge collectors, if they made all new content including badges that are in lower zones to be made available to all low level heroes or villains. And prevent the higher level hero and or villain from getting these new badges and or content on the next patch.
I bet all of the anti-isolator badge collectors out there would think a little different then what they are thinking now. Because they too would think the choice of the dev team was unacceptable as we do now.
I would love to be given the chance to tell people to deleted all their hard work and start over again and again and again...lol
[B]Leading Badge Holder in the City of Community[/B]
Owner & Operator of...
[URL="http://www.vidiotmaps.com/"]Vidiotmaps.com[/URL] & [URL="http://www.badge-hunter.com/"]Badge-Hunter.com[/URL]
[URL="http://net-warrior.mybrute.com/"][B][SIZE=3][COLOR=darkorange]Challenge My Brute[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][/URL]
[ QUOTE ]
And again, I, (nor do I believe anyone else was) was not arguing that it couldn't be trivial, but no matter how trivial it is, it's still going to be taking away from things that DO matter, and that is what this point is meant to address. You are turning it into an argument that it is not, that it would be difficult. Straw man.
[/ QUOTE ]
And again, this was all covered in the part of my post that you conveniently deleted. Here, let me hold your hand as I walk you through it. Ready? Here we go:
A new mission will be created for Pocket D. This was done very recently, and it will be done again. The devs have already said that there will be more temporary missions coming out of Pocket D in the future. So are you with me still? This new content from Pocket D will happen one way or the other. You got that? Now when a new mission is created, it needs to be populated by villains for us to fight. So at some point in the future the new Pocket D mission will need to have villains added to it when it is created. Am I going too fast here? Now, how are these villains added to a mission? Someone sits at a computer and creates a spawn point on the mission map. They give that spawn point certain characteristics like villain type, level, and number of villains spawned.
OK, not heres where it gets reeeeally complicated
see if you can keep up
OK, you ready? Here it is: It does not take ANY MORE EFFORT to make the villain mob contaminated than it does to make them Nemesis or Arachnos or any other villain type in the game! (Whew! That sure was a long sentence! Sorry about that!)
So to sum up:
New content will be added one way or the other.
Villains will be part of that new content.
Those villains could be contaminated.
Total EXTRA EFFORT required: Exactly ZERO
Do you get it now?
(Of course you get it. You got it before. But you clearly just refuse to acknowledge that your objection was answered. You will surely come up with some other bizarre way to twist my words around so you can keep arguing. Or, more likely, you will just delete my above words and pretend they dont exist, like you did earlier today with my longer post.)
[ QUOTE ]
When did I defend his use of personal attacks? Oh, that's right, I didn't, I merely stated that his points were not invalidated by them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is defending his use of personal attacks. The points you admire so much are almost nothing but crude ad hominems or lame justifications of crude ad hominims. So when you say his points are not invalidated, youre supporting his use of ad hominims.
[ QUOTE ]
And please, spell it out, what's it say about me?
[/ QUOTE ]
It means that you are very comfortable placing yourself in the same camp as him. And it says that you could really use a good course in rhetoric.
And it means that Im also done responding to you. Youve made it abundantly clear that you only read what you want to read, and you think that crass insults are perfectly fine in a discussion between adults.
So. You want the last word? Knock yourself out. My points have been made, many times over.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(1) CUSTOMER SERVICE
A large number of people do want this badge on their pre-i2 characters. Allowing us to get this badge will make us happy. Happy customers are loyal customers and more likely to remain customers in the future. The quick growth of threads like this one shows that there is a large demand for the badge.
[/ QUOTE ]
The devs doing something because the customers want it is *not* a valid reason to do something.
[/ QUOTE ]
A restaurant that had such an attitude would not stay in business long. Making customers happy is the first, last and always the most important part of any business model.
[ QUOTE ]
I bet for every person out there that would like some way to get Isolator on the hero that missed it, there are 40 or 50 that really don't care and have much more inportant things they wouldlike changed. In the whole scheme of things that people want in CoH, getting a badge added is, IMO, insignificant.
[/ QUOTE ]
Making up statistics doesnt really help your argument, but whatever.
Some people in the game want other things, sure. For example, in the PvP zones there was a problem of villains and heroes camping their opponents hospitals. So the devs listened to the complaints and made the hospitals more secure. Now to me, I could not have cared less about hospital security in PvP zones, but other people did. And those other people get what they were asking for. I would rather the devs have spent their time on wings and trench coats. To me, the hospital problem was insignificant. There will always be something that one group wants that some other groups thinks is not worth the effort.
Because the customers want it is not an invalid reason to do something, you know.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And again, I, (nor do I believe anyone else was) was not arguing that it couldn't be trivial, but no matter how trivial it is, it's still going to be taking away from things that DO matter, and that is what this point is meant to address. You are turning it into an argument that it is not, that it would be difficult. Straw man.
[/ QUOTE ]
And again, this was all covered in the part of my post that you conveniently deleted. Here, let me hold your hand as I walk you through it. Ready? Here we go:
A new mission will be created for Pocket D. This was done very recently, and it will be done again. The devs have already said that there will be more temporary missions coming out of Pocket D in the future. So are you with me still? This new content from Pocket D will happen one way or the other. You got that? Now when a new mission is created, it needs to be populated by villains for us to fight. So at some point in the future the new Pocket D mission will need to have villains added to it when it is created. Am I going too fast here? Now, how are these villains added to a mission? Someone sits at a computer and creates a spawn point on the mission map. They give that spawn point certain characteristics like villain type, level, and number of villains spawned.
OK, not heres where it gets reeeeally complicated
see if you can keep up
OK, you ready? Here it is: It does not take ANY MORE EFFORT to make the villain mob contaminated than it does to make them Nemesis or Arachnos or any other villain type in the game! (Whew! That sure was a long sentence! Sorry about that!)
So to sum up:
New content will be added one way or the other.
Villains will be part of that new content.
Those villains could be contaminated.
Do you get it now?
(Of course you get it. You got it before. But you clearly just refuse to acknowledge that your objection was answered. You will surely come up with some other bizarre way to twist my words around so you can keep arguing. Or, more likely, you will just delete my above words and pretend they dont exist, like you did earlier today with my longer post.)
[/ QUOTE ]
I certainly don't want to be accused of deleting any of your precious post, as that would totally invalidate any point I had, right?
But as pointed out by Mna Grok (sorry if I misspell that, going off memory), level 1 contaminated (the only contaminated that exist) do not scale.
If they didn't add in new powers, and new balancing for the higher level contaminated, then it wouldn't be a real fight.
So, in order to add in higher level contaminated, they do need to design a lot more content.
Or they could just put in level 1s, and have unbalanced gameplay.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When did I defend his use of personal attacks? Oh, that's right, I didn't, I merely stated that his points were not invalidated by them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is defending his use of personal attacks. The points you admire so much are almost nothing but crude ad hominems or lame justifications of crude ad hominims. So when you say his points are not invalidated, youre supporting his use of ad hominims.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, that's not how it works at all. There's two seperate parts to his post. The parts which you consider to be ad hominem, and the point he is making. *YOU* have a complete inability to seperate an ad hominem attack from the point that's being made, and I find that really sad.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And please, spell it out, what's it say about me?
[/ QUOTE ]
It means that you are very comfortable placing yourself in the same camp as him. And it says that you could really use a good course in rhetoric.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I thought it was pretty obvious from the start that I'm in his camp of people who don't think heroes that have exited outbreak deserve a chance at isolator. You're in the same camp with some people who have degenerated into some pretty poor form themselves, and yet I do not judge you for agreeing with them.
I find it humorous that you think that I need a course in rhetoric. You can't tell what arguments are applicable to what side. You can't see that your own arguments apply equally well against you. And what's further, is you seem to think that harping on ad hominem attacks at all is somehow scoring you points, when that only serves to make you look petty (which is the main reason I bothered responding to your holier-than-thou style posts). Or you come up with some crazy specific scheme like the one at the top of this post, which totally and conveniently ignores about 100 relevant facts.
[ QUOTE ]
And it means that Im also done responding to you. Youve made it abundantly clear that you only read what you want to read, and you think that crass insults are perfectly fine in a discussion between adults.
[/ QUOTE ]
I never said I think they're fine, which is why I make an effort not to use them. However, if you can't get past them, I'm not sure that you're an adult to begin with.
[ QUOTE ]
So. You want the last word? Knock yourself out. My points have been made, many times over.
[/ QUOTE ]
And refuted twice as many times.
Have fun taking a ride on your high horse!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If this is the best argument youve seen, then you havent been paying attention. It doesnt really matter is actually such a lame position that holding it up and talking about it borders on the use of a straw man argument.
I and several others have presented much better:
(1) CUSTOMER SERVICE
A large number of people do want this badge on their pre-i2 characters. Allowing us to get this badge will make us happy. Happy customers are loyal customers and more likely to remain customers in the future. The quick growth of threads like this one shows that there is a large demand for the badge.
[/ QUOTE ]
You had that chance, all you had to do was reroll at I2, but you and others like you choose NOT to, and now you want your reward.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have been following this thread from the beginning and have read every post. It amazes me that this particular argument against implementing isolator post-tutorial keeps popping up.
This in no way addresses the issue at all.
The biggest issue here is that pre issue 2 characters cannot get isolator.
You keep stating that we CHOSE not to roll characters after I2 to get the badge. Guess what? I have made many characters after issue 2. Many of those characters have the badge, some do not. I CHOSE not to bother with some.
The issue is not about denying me the badge, it's about denying my character/s the badge. How does rolling/re rolling any character after issue 2 address the fact that those characters made before issue 2, cannot and will not ever get this badge?
This argument is just as, if not more so, an unreasonable suggestion as asking players who want the V.I.P. badge to shell out another 50 bucks for the Special DvD Edition of CoH and add the code to thier pre-existing account. Players complained about this as well. It was a new badge, created for new players, that they could not get unless they wanted to do something, many felt, was completely unacceptable.
The developers listened to the players then, and an acceptable compromise was introduced. The CoH Hero Gear kit was made available a few months later at a much more reasonable price.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(1) CUSTOMER SERVICE
A large number of people do want this badge on their pre-i2 characters. Allowing us to get this badge will make us happy. Happy customers are loyal customers and more likely to remain customers in the future. The quick growth of threads like this one shows that there is a large demand for the badge.
[/ QUOTE ]
The devs doing something because the customers want it is *not* a valid reason to do something.
[/ QUOTE ]
A restaurant that had such an attitude would not stay in business long. Making customers happy is the first, last and always the most important part of any business model.
[/ QUOTE ]
However, sometimes you have to do things the customers may not like in order to provide better service or to attract new customers. What good are the "loyal customers" if your not making enough money to keep your buisness running? Sometimes as a buisness, you HAVE to say no, even if the customer may not like it.
[ QUOTE ]
I would love to see the reactions of the many anti-isolator players out there that are badge collectors, if they made all new content including badges that are in lower zones to be made available to all low level heroes or villains. And prevent the higher level hero and or villain from getting these new badges and or content on the next patch.
I bet all of the anti-isolator badge collectors out there would think a little different then what they are thinking now. Because they too would think the choice of the dev team was unacceptable as we do now.
I would love to be given the chance to tell people to deleted all their hard work and start over again and again and again...lol
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, no. No I wouldn't. Especially since my stance also means *I* don't get Isolator either.
[ QUOTE ]
Pre-I2, the badge didn't exist and there was no way for your toon to get the badge. So you are angry that the devs aren't allowing you to get something that you couldn't get when your toon was at the appropriate level for it. To me, that is like trying to get a Sausage and Egg McMuffin at 6PM and throwing a fit about it.
[/ QUOTE ]
HAHA! Thanks for the laugh. That was a funny analogy. This is not sarcasm. I thought it was funny. Text of course is hard to tell, so thought I would clarify.
However, I do feel obligated to reply in kind. In that same situation, all I would need to do to get my Sausage and Egg McMuffin, would be to wait until it is served. I would not need to leave and comeback (The equivalent of re-rolling in this analogy). I could call friends and family in to get theirs but, that does not help with mine (Like getting the badge on another character). All I would need to do is wait. And after they did begin to sell breakfast, I would simply walk up to the counter and order one. They would not refuse me because I was in the building prior to when they were sold. All I am asking is "Is it time for me to get a Sausage and Egg McMuffin, yet?"
--Rad
EDIT: To fix typos and clarify.
/whereami:
[ QUOTE ]
I certainly don't want to be accused of deleting any of your precious post, as that would totally invalidate any point I had, right?
But as pointed out by Mna Grok (sorry if I misspell that, going off memory), level 1 contaminated (the only contaminated that exist) do not scale.
If they didn't add in new powers, and new balancing for the higher level contaminated, then it wouldn't be a real fight.
So, in order to add in higher level contaminated, they do need to design a lot more content.
Or they could just put in level 1s, and have unbalanced gameplay.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually they do exist under the moniker of Infected. They are in a high level portal mission. Their appearance is identical, as is their attacks. They are already scaled for level, TOs to SOs and for ATs.
--Rad
/whereami:
[ QUOTE ]
OK, not heres where it gets reeeeally complicated
see if you can keep up
OK, you ready? Here it is: It does not take ANY MORE EFFORT to make the villain mob contaminated than it does to make them Nemesis or Arachnos or any other villain type in the game! (Whew! That sure was a long sentence! Sorry about that!)
So to sum up:
New content will be added one way or the other.
Villains will be part of that new content.
Those villains could be contaminated.
Total EXTRA EFFORT required: Exactly ZERO
Do you get it now?
(Of course you get it. You got it before. But you clearly just refuse to acknowledge that your objection was answered. You will surely come up with some other bizarre way to twist my words around so you can keep arguing. Or, more likely, you will just delete my above words and pretend they dont exist, like you did earlier today with my longer post.)
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure it matters whether or not the devs put Contaminated in another mission...Yes, Isolator is only available during Outbreak, because despite it being a kill # badge, its also a story badge, since Outbreak itself is a miniature story arc.
So, what's that mean? Perhaps it shouldn't have been a badge to start with, perhaps a "contaminated eyeball" or something should have been a "souvineer" instead.
Does this solve you not getting it? Nope...but perhaps its part of the justification...I dunno, but it seems plausible.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(1) CUSTOMER SERVICE
A large number of people do want this badge on their pre-i2 characters. Allowing us to get this badge will make us happy. Happy customers are loyal customers and more likely to remain customers in the future. The quick growth of threads like this one shows that there is a large demand for the badge.
[/ QUOTE ]
The devs doing something because the customers want it is *not* a valid reason to do something.
[/ QUOTE ]
A restaurant that had such an attitude would not stay in business long. Making customers happy is the first, last and always the most important part of any business model.
[/ QUOTE ]
But there has to be a vision in which the business operates. They need to try to keep the customers happy, but, first and foremost, they need to follow the plan that they have to grow their business. Any extensive reading of the forums will show that the population of a MMORPG will, if you take all the things that people want the devs to do, the devs would have to impliment everything under the sun, and many contradictory items.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I bet for every person out there that would like some way to get Isolator on the hero that missed it, there are 40 or 50 that really don't care and have much more inportant things they wouldlike changed. In the whole scheme of things that people want in CoH, getting a badge added is, IMO, insignificant.
[/ QUOTE ]
Making up statistics doesnt really help your argument, but whatever.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am doing the same amount of "making up" of statistics that you have. You claim that there are lots of people who would like this. I am claiming that there are a lot more that don't care. My opinion on the numbers are equally as valid as yours. If you dismiss mine, you need to dismiss yours as well.
[ QUOTE ]
Some people in the game want other things, sure. For example, in the PvP zones there was a problem of villains and heroes camping their opponents hospitals. So the devs listened to the complaints and made the hospitals more secure. Now to me, I could not have cared less about hospital security in PvP zones, but other people did. And those other people get what they were asking for. I would rather the devs have spent their time on wings and trench coats. To me, the hospital problem was insignificant. There will always be something that one group wants that some other groups thinks is not worth the effort.
Because the customers want it is not an invalid reason to do something, you know.
[/ QUOTE ]
But as I mentioned above, it is not always a valid reason to do something either.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pre-I2, the badge didn't exist and there was no way for your toon to get the badge. So you are angry that the devs aren't allowing you to get something that you couldn't get when your toon was at the appropriate level for it. To me, that is like trying to get a Sausage and Egg McMuffin at 6PM and throwing a fit about it.
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HAHA! Thanks for the laugh. That was a funny analogy. This is not sarcasm. I thought it was funny. Text of course is hard to tell, so thought I would clarify.
However, I do feel obligated to reply in kind. In that same situation, all I would need to do to get my Sausage and Egg McMuffin, would be to wait until it is served. I would not need to leave and comeback (The equivalent of re-rolling in this analogy). I could call friends and family in to get theirs but, that does not help with mine (Like getting the badge on another character). All I would need to do is wait. And after they did begin to sell breakfast, I would simply walk up to the counter and order one. They would not refuse me because I was in the building prior to when they were sold. All I am asking is "Is it time for me to get a Sausage and Egg McMuffin, yet?"
--Rad
EDIT: To fix typos and clarify.
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And to complete your analogy, each day is starting over again. So by getting it the next day, you are re-rolling.
Or at least that is my point of view.
In the end, there are two points of view to this discussion, and the chances that they will meet are slim to none. I would like to thank those on both sides that have stayed civil.
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Pre-I2, the badge didn't exist and there was no way for your toon to get the badge. So you are angry that the devs aren't allowing you to get something that you couldn't get when your toon was at the appropriate level for it. To me, that is like trying to get a Sausage and Egg McMuffin at 6PM and throwing a fit about it.
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HAHA! Thanks for the laugh. That was a funny analogy. This is not sarcasm. I thought it was funny. Text of course is hard to tell, so thought I would clarify.
However, I do feel obligated to reply in kind. In that same situation, all I would need to do to get my Sausage and Egg McMuffin, would be to wait until it is served. I would not need to leave and comeback (The equivalent of re-rolling in this analogy). I could call friends and family in to get theirs but, that does not help with mine (Like getting the badge on another character). All I would need to do is wait. And after they did begin to sell breakfast, I would simply walk up to the counter and order one. They would not refuse me because I was in the building prior to when they were sold. All I am asking is "Is it time for me to get a Sausage and Egg McMuffin, yet?"
--Rad
EDIT: To fix typos and clarify.
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And to complete your analogy, each day is starting over again. So by getting it the next day, you are re-rolling.
Or at least that is my point of view.
In the end, there are two points of view to this discussion, and the chances that they will meet are slim to none. I would like to thank those on both sides that have stayed civil.
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Nope. It is a year later and I am still in this place. Because I have not re-rolled my character. Sure I've called in friends and family. But, me? I'm still waiting for my Sausage and Egg McMuffin. I'm tired and hungry. 
--Rad
/whereami:
Jumping in on the Egg McMuffin analagy here.
It doesn't quite work for me either. In theory, I can come back to McDonalds any time I want (during breakfast hours) and get an Egg McMuffin. McDonalds is telling me, however, that since I ate breakfast there once prior to 1973, when the Egg McMuffin was introduced, that I am no longer allowed back in thier restaraunt to purchase one.
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Jumping in on the Egg McMuffin analagy here.
It doesn't quite work for me either. In theory, I can come back to McDonalds any time I want (during breakfast hours) and get an Egg McMuffin. McDonalds is telling me, however, that since I ate breakfast there once prior to 1973, when the Egg McMuffin was introduced, that I am no longer allowed back in thier restaraunt to purchase one.
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Ummm, no. That is quite an exaggeration there.
To switch it around, it is the following:
You buy a regular hamburger and start eating it. You get a couple of bites in and then see that they have started putting cheese on them as well. You, liking cheese, want to have cheese on your hamburger, so you go back to the counter and ask for cheese. Unfortunately, they say no because you have already started eating your hamburger. However, you can get a new hamburger with cheese (let's call it a cheeseburger for lack of a better term ) and enjoy that.
However, in the time between buying your burger and buying the cheeburger, they have run out of some condiments, so if you get the new cheeseburger, you won't have access to all of the same condiments as you had on your burger.
PS. Apologies for the previous unclear analogy, I am still recovering from my daughters 1st bday party. See pictures in the cake link in my sig.
PPS. Why yes, I am trolling for compliments on my cute daughter. 
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Jumping in on the Egg McMuffin analagy here.
It doesn't quite work for me either. In theory, I can come back to McDonalds any time I want (during breakfast hours) and get an Egg McMuffin. McDonalds is telling me, however, that since I ate breakfast there once prior to 1973, when the Egg McMuffin was introduced, that I am no longer allowed back in thier restaraunt to purchase one.
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Ummm, no. That is quite an exaggeration there.
To switch it around, it is the following:
You buy a regular hamburger and start eating it. You get a couple of bites in and then see that they have started putting cheese on them as well. You, liking cheese, want to have cheese on your hamburger, so you go back to the counter and ask for cheese. Unfortunately, they say no because you have already started eating your hamburger. However, you can get a new hamburger with cheese (let's call it a cheeseburger for lack of a better term ) and enjoy that.
However, in the time between buying your burger and buying the cheeburger, they have run out of some condiments, so if you get the new cheeseburger, you won't have access to all of the same condiments as you had on your burger.
PS. Apologies for the previous unclear analogy, I am still recovering from my daughters 1st bday party. See pictures in the cake link in my sig.
PPS. Why yes, I am trolling for compliments on my cute daughter.
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Yumm hamburgers. I said I was hungry. Anywho...
All I would have to do is get the cheese burger and apply said cheese to previous hamburger. So now I have a hamburger + cheese + previous condiments. I am more then willing to do the same and move Isolator from another character to my collector. 
Oh and linky no worky on the sig. 
--Rad
/whereami:
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All I would have to do is get the cheese burger and apply said cheese to previous hamburger. So now I have a hamburger + cheese + previous condiments. I am more then willing to do the same and move Isolator from another character to my collector.
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Hmmm, that wouldn't be a bad idea, as long as if you moved the badge, you lose the badge on the old character and it got noted in the new badge on the other character that the badge was transferred...
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Oh and linky no worky on the sig.
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Stupid Photobucket site is down for maintenance, and I don't have direct links to the pictures ATM.
Edit - Working now.
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(1) CUSTOMER SERVICE
A large number of people do want this badge on their pre-i2 characters. Allowing us to get this badge will make us happy. Happy customers are loyal customers and more likely to remain customers in the future. The quick growth of threads like this one shows that there is a large demand for the badge.
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The devs doing something because the customers want it is *not* a valid reason to do something.
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A restaurant that had such an attitude would not stay in business long. Making customers happy is the first, last and always the most important part of any business model.
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But there has to be a vision in which the business operates. They need to try to keep the customers happy, but, first and foremost, they need to follow the plan that they have to grow their business. Any extensive reading of the forums will show that the population of a MMORPG will, if you take all the things that people want the devs to do, the devs would have to impliment everything under the sun, and many contradictory items.
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People that are for Isolator being introduced keep harking on the fact that its customer service. Well I have a question for these ppl. What did you do when....
1. The nerfed Regen into oblivion.
2. The nerfed Fire Tanks (esp Burn)
3. They introduced Supression
4. Introduced ED
5. All but stopped Dreck Farming
6. All but stopped Kraken Farming
Sure there are individuals who are still upset over any # of these changes (and many more) but they have learned to accept it and moved on. Its no different from Isolator.
Why not make a thread saying that the customer base wants ED removed and since its customer satisfaction they should do it!!! Why havent the devs removed ED since its customer satisfaction? Answer that.
There are numerous examples as to why sometimes a business must not pay attention to customer desires and instead take its own course of action. Did ED ruin this game? Absolutely not. Will not introducing a way to obtain Isolator ruin this game? Absolutely Not.
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Stupid Photobucket site is down for maintenance, and I don't have direct links to the pictures ATM.
Edit - Working now.
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She is indeed a cutie. Just look at those chocolate covers cheeks. How could you not think otherwise?
--Rad
/whereami:
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Will not introducing a way to obtain Isolator ruin this game? Absolutely Not.
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It can also be said that, will introducing a way to obtain Isolator ruin the game? Absolutely Not.
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Um, no, your response is another straw man example. I already answered this (in the part that you cut out). My answer was that the effort would be trivial. Remember the fighting monkeys? Of course you do. You just dont want to acknowledge the point.
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And again, I, (nor do I believe anyone else was) was not arguing that it couldn't be trivial, but no matter how trivial it is, it's still going to be taking away from things that DO matter, and that is what this point is meant to address. You are turning it into an argument that it is not, that it would be difficult. Straw man.
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(3) IT DOESNT MATTER
So what if your character doesnt have this badge? It doesnt do anything. Get over it.
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Again, if something doesn't matter, when does it not matter enough that the devs are justified in saying no?
If you respond to any of this post, answer this question. It's the crux of the issue, to me.
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Straw man again. I already answered this (in the part that you cut out). And you also seem to be confused about what *I* am saying. I have never said it doesnt matter so give it to us. Never, never, never once. Go back and re-read what I actually posted please.
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Yet, in the grand scheme of things, most (maybe not you, but you were talking about all the arguments being presented) people who want this realize that this doesn't really matter, go read most of the rest of the thread if you think that I'm straw manning, I didn't bring up the argument, until it was brought up in favor of the change. Since this is the only argument I feel has any merit, what *I* want to know, is what I have been asking, which is when does it not matter enough to be justified in saying no to?
It *IS* objectively unimportant though (since you didn't read my previous point on the matter I guess).
The importance of a matter directly correlates to 2 things. One, whether the matter is affecting the contractual obligations of the EULA (which essentially means, access to the servers). The second (which is the only one really applicable here), is how many people care about it.
In the whole playerbase, theres a couple hundred, maybe a couple thousand that would like to have the badge. But there's things they care more about. There are other issues that are orders of magnitude more imporant than this. The devs only have so much time in the day, and no matter how trivial a change is, it must be planned, analyzed, tested, and documented. Quite simply, of all the things that the devs could spend their time on, it does not in any significant way matter.
This logic applies to a great deal of other issues this game has, not just this one, but it's still quite objective. Costume clipping issues, texturing issues, misspellings, etc, are all equally as unimportant as having isolator on your toon.
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I didnt gloss over it. I already answered this (yet again, in the part that you cut out).
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You "answered" it, but that doesn't mean you're right about it being silly. Just because *YOU* don't think it's a valid concern, doesn't mean it isn't. Just like getting isolator on pre-I2 characters.
Retconning is not something most people like, and to do it for something as menial as this is more "silly" than the point itself, which I do not believe is silly.
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This was also answered in the part you cut out. It was included for purposes of completeness. Go back and read my post closely please. Youll see it.
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I read the rest of your post, I read all the parts I cut out, I cut them out cause it wasn't necessary to double my post length by including your entire post when anyone who wants is perfectly capable of going and reading it for themselves, through the magic of the internet.
As far as purposes of completeness, you have brought up the issue more than anyone else has, so it's mostly your point.
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FYI, I am ignoring Tremere now. His personal attacks show him to be an individual of little to no consequence who has nothing constructive to add to the discussion. That you would defend his use of personal attacks as valid rhetoric says a lot about you too.
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Oh no, I'm hurt. Really.
Wait a tic. When did I defend his use of personal attacks? Oh, that's right, I didn't, I merely stated that his points were not invalidated by them.
And please, spell it out, what's it say about me? That I can look past his insults and see that he's making a lot more sense than you?
What's that about ad hominem? I think you should stop worrying about ad hominem, and straw man, and look up double standard and hypocrite.