Quick! Before Cuppa can lock it!
Babba Booey Babba Booey Howard Sterns P**is Babba Booey Babba Booey!
*Gets dragged off*
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I bet for every person out there that would like some way to get Isolator on the hero that missed it, there are 40 or 50 that really don't care and have much more inportant things they wouldlike changed. In the whole scheme of things that people want in CoH, getting a badge added is, IMO, insignificant.
[/ QUOTE ]
Making up statistics doesnt really help your argument, but whatever.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am doing the same amount of "making up" of statistics that you have. You claim that there are lots of people who would like this. I am claiming that there are a lot more that don't care. My opinion on the numbers are equally as valid as yours. If you dismiss mine, you need to dismiss yours as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ummm, no, actually.
Ive never made up a statistic in this discussion. A statistic requires an actual number. I have clear evidence, however, that lots of people would like Isolator on their pre-i2 characters. The evidence is that every time a thread like this one begins, it very quickly grows large. Heck, in just the last two days three or four newcomers have chimed in adding their voices to the pro-Isolator side.
The only statistics used came from you, when you pulled "40 or 50" out of thin air. And by saying that your opinion on the numbers are equally as valid as mine, youre making a Burden of Proof logical fallacy. You are the one who made up those numbers, so the burden of proof falls on you.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You will never get Beef-Cake, Mna_Grok, you and I to agree on this issue. We are not going to convience each other. And that is expdentionally more accurate for the ENTIRE player base on most issues.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT.
The most we can hope for now is to keep discussing this issue civily, but I think that we have started down the slope towards modsmack.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. Some people are 100% against it - some are 100% for it - and neither will change their minds. Now it's all up to the Devs. Your voices were heard! Thanks for the feedback on it.
[/ QUOTE ]
heya Cuppa, and thanks for the post, makes us feel good when we know you guys and gals are watching us and care about what we all think 
[B]Leading Badge Holder in the City of Community[/B]
Owner & Operator of...
[URL="http://www.vidiotmaps.com/"]Vidiotmaps.com[/URL] & [URL="http://www.badge-hunter.com/"]Badge-Hunter.com[/URL]
[URL="http://net-warrior.mybrute.com/"][B][SIZE=3][COLOR=darkorange]Challenge My Brute[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][/URL]
[ QUOTE ]
Quick! Before Cuppa can lock it!
Babba Booey Babba Booey Howard Sterns P**is Babba Booey Babba Booey!
*Gets dragged off*
[/ QUOTE ]
LMAO
[ QUOTE ]
[snipped for length]
Completely different scenario here, we are talking about a possible customer looking to commit theft, rather then us asking for a badge we deserve.
Did this customer deserve the pliers? Sure, but does he deserve them for the lower price because he found them in a 99 cent bin? No, why because he may have said they were there to try and get away with a 99 cent deal or some kid placed them there by mistake, as long as the price was on the pliers then the customer was wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Correct, and I agree (as did the manager apparently). And incidentally, I don't believe that there was a price tag on the pliers, they had to find where the pliers actually belonged to price it.
But guess what he was yelling at the manager?
That's why citing the claim that the customer is always right usually at best stagnates your argument. If there's a good reason to get what it is that you want, it should be something past because you're right.
And I think that totally applies here. There are a lot of customers, whose positions you disagree with (and I understand your position, I just disagree completely), but who feel that this change would be wrong. And their "customer is always right" factor (for lack of a better term) is just as important as yours, so it's totally inapplicable to this issue.
The same really goes for the fairness argument, IMO. Which of course is why I think that it not mattering is really the most compelling argument, but overall falls short of the mark of convincing me.
[ QUOTE ]
Agreed. Some people are 100% against it - some are 100% for it - and neither will change their minds. Now it's all up to the Devs. Your voices were heard! Thanks for the feedback on it.
[/ QUOTE ]
THANK YOU, Cuppa.
Having our voices heard on this issue is all that I or anyone else asking for Isolator want. Well, we also want Isolator, naturally! 
And a civil discourse, of course of course.
And JELLY BEANS!! The green gourmet kind that taste like apples!
Oh, and is there any of that coffee left? It looks good too.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh and to clarify. I do not mean on another character created after badges went live. I do not mean deleting and re-creating as this is another form of being a new character. One created after Issue 2. This has been my point over and over again. And this is where we disagree.
[/ QUOTE ]
I beg to differ, we do agree. I dont think any toon created after the 1yr anv deserves that badge, nor any toon after the halloween event, nor any toon created post any event. Isolator is only different in that its placement was in the tutorial. So how do you overcome that, simple... create a new toon. No toon post the 1yr anv will ever have that badge, just like no toon created pre-I2 will have isolator.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah but in all those cases of the events those are created after badge was available to be obtained. That is worth repeating they are created after the badge was available to be obtained. Isolator is different in that characters created before are denied but, the badge itself is still available. Whereas, with those events those created before the event could obtain the badge by participating in the event. But, we have covered this before.
/whereami:
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I bet for every person out there that would like some way to get Isolator on the hero that missed it, there are 40 or 50 that really don't care and have much more inportant things they wouldlike changed. In the whole scheme of things that people want in CoH, getting a badge added is, IMO, insignificant.
[/ QUOTE ]
Making up statistics doesnt really help your argument, but whatever.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am doing the same amount of "making up" of statistics that you have. You claim that there are lots of people who would like this. I am claiming that there are a lot more that don't care. My opinion on the numbers are equally as valid as yours. If you dismiss mine, you need to dismiss yours as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ummm, no, actually.
Ive never made up a statistic in this discussion. A statistic requires an actual number. I have clear evidence, however, that lots of people would like Isolator on their pre-i2 characters. The evidence is that every time a thread like this one begins, it very quickly grows large. Heck, in just the last two days three or four newcomers have chimed in adding their voices to the pro-Isolator side.
The only statistics used came from you, when you pulled "40 or 50" out of thin air. And by saying that your opinion on the numbers are equally as valid as mine, youre making a Burden of Proof logical fallacy. YOU are the one who made up those numbers, so the burden of proof falls on YOU.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have quite a few members in my SG that have said that they really don't care about badges.
Doesn't really bother me whether you believe me or not. *shrug*
Also, the population of people who post in a thread like this is not a representative of the opinions of the population as a whole.
You are falling into the Biased Sample fallacy.
Also note that I am not talking about the set of people who don't want Isolator to be given retroactively...I am talking about people who don't care and would rather the devs do something else. The line between the two is blurred I will admit, but there is a difference.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You will never get Beef-Cake, Mna_Grok, you and I to agree on this issue. We are not going to convience each other. And that is expdentionally more accurate for the ENTIRE player base on most issues.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT.
The most we can hope for now is to keep discussing this issue civily, but I think that we have started down the slope towards modsmack.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. Some people are 100% against it - some are 100% for it - and neither will change their minds. Now it's all up to the Devs. Your voices were heard! Thanks for the feedback on it.
[/ QUOTE ]
*sings and skips*
I got a Dev reply!!
I got a Dev reply!!
I got a Dev reply!!
I got a Dev reply!!
*trips and falls*
I bent my wookie... 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[snipped for length]
Completely different scenario here, we are talking about a possible customer looking to commit theft, rather then us asking for a badge we deserve.
Did this customer deserve the pliers? Sure, but does he deserve them for the lower price because he found them in a 99 cent bin? No, why because he may have said they were there to try and get away with a 99 cent deal or some kid placed them there by mistake, as long as the price was on the pliers then the customer was wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Correct, and I agree (as did the manager apparently). And incidentally, I don't believe that there was a price tag on the pliers, they had to find where the pliers actually belonged to price it.
But guess what he was yelling at the manager?
That's why citing the claim that the customer is always right usually at best stagnates your argument. If there's a good reason to get what it is that you want, it should be something past because you're right.
And I think that totally applies here. There are a lot of customers, whose positions you disagree with (and I understand your position, I just disagree completely), but who feel that this change would be wrong. And their "customer is always right" factor (for lack of a better term) is just as important as yours, so it's totally inapplicable to this issue.
The same really goes for the fairness argument, IMO. Which of course is why I think that it not mattering is really the most compelling argument, but overall falls short of the mark of convincing me.
[/ QUOTE ]
I understand your post and I agree, but in this scenario where pre-i2 heroes never had the chance without deleting their heroes, were never given the chance to earn this badge on their main heroes.
And as Burnin said earlier, no other badge has been introduced to this game that could not be obtained by any hero that already exists.
So why should this badge? I was forced to go through tutorial when I created my hero, I know I defeated/arrested more then 100 contaminated when I was there in Outbreak, hell I may have defeated /arrested more then 200 because I was there with a team of 8 (which were my friends) when we all started this game.
Since then badges were introduced, and again data mining was not going to happen so there fore could not get it, mind you i was level 50 when this happened, so I was not about to reroll.
So, with all of that, I feel myself and many many others who honestly defeated/arrested the (x) contaminated should be given the option to get it since they were denied the reward which everyone gets today.
So whether it convinces you or anyone else, this is what I feel should be done for the pre-i2 heroes as they deserve every right to earn that badge as anyone else.
[B]Leading Badge Holder in the City of Community[/B]
Owner & Operator of...
[URL="http://www.vidiotmaps.com/"]Vidiotmaps.com[/URL] & [URL="http://www.badge-hunter.com/"]Badge-Hunter.com[/URL]
[URL="http://net-warrior.mybrute.com/"][B][SIZE=3][COLOR=darkorange]Challenge My Brute[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][/URL]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You will never get Beef-Cake, Mna_Grok, you and I to agree on this issue. We are not going to convience each other. And that is expdentionally more accurate for the ENTIRE player base on most issues.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT.
The most we can hope for now is to keep discussing this issue civily, but I think that we have started down the slope towards modsmack.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. Some people are 100% against it - some are 100% for it - and neither will change their minds. Now it's all up to the Devs. Your voices were heard! Thanks for the feedback on it.
[/ QUOTE ]
*sings and skips*
I got a Dev reply!!
I got a Dev reply!!
I got a Dev reply!!
I got a Dev reply!!
*trips and falls*
I bent my wookie...
[/ QUOTE ]
OMG! HAHAHA
TOO FUNNY
[B]Leading Badge Holder in the City of Community[/B]
Owner & Operator of...
[URL="http://www.vidiotmaps.com/"]Vidiotmaps.com[/URL] & [URL="http://www.badge-hunter.com/"]Badge-Hunter.com[/URL]
[URL="http://net-warrior.mybrute.com/"][B][SIZE=3][COLOR=darkorange]Challenge My Brute[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][/URL]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, the population of people who post in a thread like this is not a representative of the opinions of the population as a whole.
You are falling into the Biased Sample fallacy.
Also note that I am not talking about the set of people who don't want Isolator to be given retroactively...I am talking about people who don't care and would rather the devs do something else. The line between the two is blurred I will admit, but there is a difference.
[/ QUOTE ]
You are absolutely correct that those posting in this thread do not represent an unbiased sample. Thats why Ive never counted people saying pro or con in this or any other thread on the topic. And Im glad that youve found one of my favorite websites useful.
My only point, in a single line of a longer post, was that it isnt a good idea to just make up numbers like you did. Now if you were to say, more people are apathetic to the Isolator badge than there are asking for it, I would agree with that statement.
But I still stand by my statement that a lot of people would be happy to get Isolator on their pre-i2 characters. I can do that with great confidence, since after all the word lot is slippery and doesnt have a pre-defined meaning, so no one can prove me wrong.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
But I still stand by my statement that a lot of people would be happy to get Isolator on their pre-i2 characters. I can do that with great confidence, since after all the word lot is slippery and doesnt have a pre-defined meaning, so no one can prove me wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hah!! I *can* prove you wrong. I know a guy named Lot. I asked him what he thought a bout this, and do you know what he said??
[ QUOTE ]
A badge?? [censored] would I want a badge for!!! Now stop bothering me you jack[censored]. Can't you see I am a pillar of salt!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Hehehehe 
[ QUOTE ]
*trips and falls*
I bent my wookie...
[/ QUOTE ]
DUUUUDE....
We do NOT want to hear about your "wookie"....
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I still stand by my statement that a lot of people would be happy to get Isolator on their pre-i2 characters. I can do that with great confidence, since after all the word lot is slippery and doesnt have a pre-defined meaning, so no one can prove me wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hah!! I *can* prove you wrong. I know a guy named Lot. I asked him what he thought a bout this, and do you know what he said??
[ QUOTE ]
A badge?? [censored] would I want a badge for!!! Now stop bothering me you jack[censored]. Can't you see I am a pillar of salt!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Hehehehe
[/ QUOTE ]
HAH!
[ QUOTE ]
Ah but in all those cases of the events those are created after badge was available to be obtained. That is worth repeating they are created after the badge was available to be obtained. Isolator is different in that characters created before are denied but, the badge itself is still available. Whereas, with those events those created before the event could obtain the badge by participating in the event. But, we have covered this before.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, yes, and the logic is still weak and still boils down to, "It's different because it's different." And it still boils down to a convenient rationalization for those who believe that they should have an opportunity at all the badges in the game, as older players, but that newer players should not.
The event badges are still in the game. The code hasn't been removed. There's simply no way, at present, for a character to acquire those badges--just as there's no way for your level 50 to acquire Isolator.
The "difference" is invented, and certainly not a particularly valid reason for claiming that one should be awarded and the other should not.
Let me quickly summarize the state of affairs:
Some toons do not have Isolator because it was not available when those toons were created.
Some toons don't have it because the player did not know about the badge when the toon was created.
Some players who have toons in one of those two categories would like to get it for those toons.
Other players don't want those toons to get it. Most common reason seems to be because it "cheapens" the badge. Second most common reason is "you can't always get what you want so stop crying about it you pansies."
My position: I want it on my main toon because he was my first and the badge didn't even exist when he went through Outbreak. But I don't want the rest of you pansies to get it! That would cheapen it for me.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
[ QUOTE ]
And as Burnin said earlier, no other badge has been introduced to this game that could not be obtained by any hero that already exists.
[/ QUOTE ]
And as such, it's a unique badge that only a subset of the population will ever be able to obtain. Just like every event badge. I think that makes these badges way better than any of the other badges in existence.
I'd personally like to see more unique badges put in place, so that there are more badges that are only available to a subset of the population, no matter when you started your character.
-Souvenirs could have badges attached, since you can't view someone's souvenirs now anyway (at least, not the last time I checked).
-Each contact should give a X's Pal/Buddy/Friend/etc. for having that contact's bar all the way filled (or maybe at the second line).
-Unique badge combinations should yield/take away other badges (like say damage taken badges + no debt badges -> lucky badges).
[ QUOTE ]
So whether it convinces you
[/ QUOTE ]
But of course, I think we already determined that we disagree about this way back in the first couple pages.
Here's another way of looking at it:
Any well-run company is going to take the actions that it thinks will be most advantageous to it in the long run. Generally, these actions involve keeping the largest number of customers possible happy--hence the badly-misused addage "The customer is always right."
In this particular case, the Devs have the following facts to consider:
1. A vocal group of players want them to make a certain badge available. This will make them happy.
2. Another, equally vocal group of players do not want them to make that badge available. Making the badge available would make them unhappy.
So: no matter which way the Devs go on this, one group of players will be unhappy and the other will be happy...and most of the playerbase simply won't care one way or the other.
How, then, does it profit them to invest time and energy in making the change? Where's the gain?
Now, I know, you could say "But these are the most loyal players, the ones who have been around since before I2, and therefore their wants should be considered!" There are a number of ways of looking at that, from a business perspective:
1. These players are already hooked. If they weren't, they wouldn't have stuck around this long. Not adding one badge is unlikely to make most of them quit.
2. This game, like most games, has a finite shelf-life; players buy it, play it, enjoy it, and eventually move on. The focus has to be on attracting new players, not retaining older players forever.
[ QUOTE ]
Did this customer deserve the pliers? Sure, but does he deserve them for the lower price because he found them in a 99 cent bin? No, why because he may have said they were there to try and get away with a 99 cent deal or some kid placed them there by mistake, as long as the price was on the pliers then the customer was wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
It depends...
If the pliers were the only pair in there, then no the customer shouldn't get the lesser price.
But if the pliers got stocked there (more than one set), then yes they do get the price, within reason.
The first is someone being lazy and dropping it off somewhere (you, of course, never ever go by the philosphy that the customers are trying to cheat you ).
The second is a store employee making a mistake, then the store gets to pay for it. Where I work we have a five dollar rule - any discrepencies over 5 bucks goes to a manager. Something like the pliers... we probably would of offered the guy 5 bucks off. But not 19.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
Players eventually move on? What!?
My personal Opinion:
Although I think it would be nifty neat to be able to get the Isolator Badge for my characters who missed it, I can play without it. Heck, I'd like to be able to get some of the "Special Event Badges" like the Halloween Badge I missed because I couldn't get off work. But I can live without it. I'd like to run my own private CoH sever or play CoH locally solo when I don't have an internet connection (which is frequent). But I Can't.
The Dev's are aware that there are a LARGE percentage of persons who would like to be able to obtain ALL of the available badges. Let's end the discussion on this thread and just keep bumping it until we get an official Yay / Nay.
And don't forget the long-time players without isolator on their mains because it didn't exist that don't want it to be made available because it cheapens it for the characters that do have it.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I still stand by my statement that a lot of people would be happy to get Isolator on their pre-i2 characters. I can do that with great confidence, since after all the word lot is slippery and doesnt have a pre-defined meaning, so no one can prove me wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hah!! I *can* prove you wrong. I know a guy named Lot. I asked him what he thought a bout this, and do you know what he said??
[ QUOTE ]
A badge?? [censored] would I want a badge for!!! Now stop bothering me you jack[censored]. Can't you see I am a pillar of salt!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Hehehehe
[/ QUOTE ]
Point of contention. If you knew a guy named Lot, he would not be a pillar of salt. That would be his wife. I believe you were talking to the wrong person.
--Rad
/whereami:
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ah but in all those cases of the events those are created after badge was available to be obtained. That is worth repeating they are created after the badge was available to be obtained. Isolator is different in that characters created before are denied but, the badge itself is still available. Whereas, with those events those created before the event could obtain the badge by participating in the event. But, we have covered this before.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, yes, and the logic is still weak and still boils down to, "It's different because it's different." And it still boils down to a convenient rationalization for those who believe that they should have an opportunity at all the badges in the game, as older players, but that newer players should not.
The event badges are still in the game. The code hasn't been removed. There's simply no way, at present, for a character to acquire those badges--just as there's no way for your level 50 to acquire Isolator.
The "difference" is invented, and certainly not a particularly valid reason for claiming that one should be awarded and the other should not.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree.
--Rad
/whereami:
[ QUOTE ]
<snip>
...as long as the price was on the pliers then the customer was wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, I don't see any link between the price being on the pliers saying how much it should cost and the text on the badge saying what you have to do to get the badge.