[ QUOTE ]
In your post (#4996818 - 03/12/06 01:53 AM) you stated:
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Get Isolator on your toons or don't. Paint your house blue or don't. It doesn't affect me. I have not, nor will I EVER say that your particular characters should NEVER be allowed to have this badge, that badge, or some other badge.
You, LiquidX, and a couple of others, however, don't seem to want to extend that same courtesy to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
I read that last phrase as you saying that LiquidX, myself and some others want to keep you from getting Isolator plus any number of other badges.
[/ QUOTE ]
OK, got it now. 
I was only speaking to LiquidX, not you or anyone else. Also, the any number of other badges is not true, as this discussion is only about Isolator.
LiquidX has indeed flat out stated that he does not think that any one toon should be allowed to experience all the game content. That position is what I was responding to when I posted my story about my old neighbor and the blue house. My point there was that if he feels that way, then he is free to have his toons experience as much or as little content as he may want. But it is not reasonable to say that the way he wants to play his toons should extend to mine as well.
Since then, he is now saying that as long as the badge text is changed, he would accept it.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
I read that last phrase as you saying that LiquidX, myself and some others want to keep you from getting Isolator plus any number of other badges.
[/ QUOTE ]
OK, got it now.
I was only speaking to LiquidX, not you or anyone else. Also, the any number of other badges is not true, as this discussion is only about Isolator.
[/ QUOTE ]
OK.
[ QUOTE ]
LiquidX has indeed flat out stated that he does not think that any one toon should be allowed to experience all the game content. That position is what I was responding to when I posted my story about my old neighbor and the blue house. My point there was that if he feels that way, then he is free to have his toons experience as much or as little content as he may want. But it is not reasonable to say that the way he wants to play his toons should extend to mine as well.
Since then, he is now saying that as long as the badge text is changed, he would accept it.
[/ QUOTE ]
A couple of weeks ago (before this thread started) I PMed Statesman about whether or not we were supposed to be able to experience all the content on one character. Here is his reply:
[ QUOTE ]
Ask your friend if there's any other MMP in existence where one can experience "all" the content.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now to me that is quite clear that he doesn't think that one character can experience all the content as well.
[ QUOTE ]
A couple of weeks ago (before this thread started) I PMed Statesman about whether or not we were supposed to be able to experience all the content on one character. Here is his reply:
[ QUOTE ]
Ask your friend if there's any other MMP in existence where one can experience "all" the content.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now to me that is quite clear that he doesn't think that one character can experience all the content as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that's a fine statement if he had put in vastly more content than a single character could take in like most of those "other MMP"'s have. But that's not the case, yet.
Currently the only content that a new CoH character cannot experience in one pass is the Kheld arcs (if not a Kheld), past seasonal events, and removed content (e.g. Calvin Scott TF).
[ QUOTE ]
OK, got it now.
I was only speaking to LiquidX, not you or anyone else. Also, the any number of other badges is not true, as this discussion is only about Isolator.
LiquidX has indeed flat out stated that he does not think that any one toon should be allowed to experience all the game content. That position is what I was responding to when I posted my story about my old neighbor and the blue house. My point there was that if he feels that way, then he is free to have his toons experience as much or as little content as he may want. But it is not reasonable to say that the way he wants to play his toons should extend to mine as well.
Since then, he is now saying that as long as the badge text is changed, he would accept it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was saying it before that post, also. In fact, if you'll read the previous Isolator thread you'll note I specifically stated HERE that it would be an acceptable compromise.
And my comment about not being able to experience all the content was when you asked why I did not like the idea of *FLASHBACK*. When you *asked* me for my opinions on it.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, lets look at the different solutions possible and the downsides:
1) Datamine for those who actually defeated 100 contaminated before Issue 2.
Downside: Requires lots of work for very little payoff, as very few of us actually bothered to smack around that many contaminated.
2) Retroactively grant Isolator to anyone who was here before Issue 2.
Downside: To quote a term thrown around in this discussion, this would be very unfair to those who actually DID the work before the badge was put into outbreak, those who were actually willing to delete their high level characters to get the badge when Issue 2 was released, and to those who have actually done the work to earn it now.
3) Create a new mission that would allow people to earn the badge, or simply toss a bunch of contaminated into a zone.
Disadvantages: This would require resources better used elsewhere for little payoff, and/or would completly nullify the badge and its description.
[/ QUOTE ]
You left mine off:
4) Go-Bad TF for level 50 heroes which sends you to the zig to Breakout as a level 1 villain. You lose everything except your badges and souviners (XP, inf, enhancements, contacts, powers, and security level all go away). Gives long time heroes an instant 50 levels of new content and lots more badges to hunt. Similarly a Go-Good TF for level 50 villains where you are granted level 1 security clearance and sent to Outbreak.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I'll be honest. It didn't occur to me until you mentioned it just now, (Damn sinus infections...) and even then were not really guaranteed that's how the "turncoat" stuff will work.
...But if they DID do it that way, I could live with that.
[ QUOTE ]
Uhh, I know it's fun to think that everyone agrees with you(I do it too),
[/ QUOTE ]
Uhh
I know its fun to put thoughts into other peoples heads, but its patently obvious that not everyone agrees with me.
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but I have to say Tremere has to this point made many more convincing points than you have, IMO.
[/ QUOTE ]
If his arguments are really so convincing then perhaps he should be encouraged to make them without the personal attacks (which only add rancor and heat while making him look really bad)?
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The best argument I've seen for doing this is that it doesn't really matter. I still haven't seen any compelling evidence that it matters enough that it should be implemented despite the fact that it doesn't really matter. I mean, it seems like that argument already precludes it from being worth any dev effort. I'd like to think they're spending their time doing something that does matter enough to do it.
[/ QUOTE ]
If this is the best argument youve seen, then you havent been paying attention. It doesnt really matter is actually such a lame position that holding it up and talking about it borders on the use of a straw man argument.
I and several others have presented much better:
(1) CUSTOMER SERVICE
A large number of people do want this badge on their pre-i2 characters. Allowing us to get this badge will make us happy. Happy customers are loyal customers and more likely to remain customers in the future. The quick growth of threads like this one shows that there is a large demand for the badge.
(2) FAIRNESS
Isolator is unique of all the badges. It is the only badge that has ever been released which could not be obtained by characters in existence at the time it was created. Anyone who entered CoH after i2 can get this badge, but pre-i2 characters cannot. Even those few who actually met the requirements for getting the badge before i2 cannot get the badge.
There are other reasons that have been presented, but these two are the big ones.
---
Now lined up on the negative said we have:
(1) TOO DIFFICULT TO IMPLEMENT
The devs have better things to do with their time. Why bother?
Well, you bother because it would make your customers happy. In any event, this objection has been answered many times over. It would be dead easy to stick a contaminated spawn in Atlas Park or Galaxy City. Heck, in the Snaptooth missions, up on the northwest part of the map, a group of low level monkeys appear and start fighting among themselves. This appears to have been done simply as a joke. If the mission is being made anyway, and it needs to be populated with villains anyway, and if they have time to put in funny monkeys, they can easily add in one or two contaminated. Problem solved. There will be more temporary Pocket D missions. Throw some in there.
(2) YOU CAN GET ISOLATOR IF YOU WANT
Nobody is preventing you from getting Isolator. Just roll another toon.
This one is simplistic almost beyond words. The whole point of the discussion is about getting Isolator on pre-i2 toons. Therefore, the entire argument here is totally irrelevant.
(3) IT DOESNT MATTER
So what if your character doesnt have this badge? It doesnt do anything. Get over it.
Well, it matters to me, and to many other people by all accounts. Besides, as you pointed out, it doesnt matter can go either way. If it doesnt matter, then let us earn it. Badge collecting is a part of the game. Its important to some of us, just like PvP is important to others. Just because it isnt important to you doesnt not somehow prove that it is objectively unimportant.
(4) YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE BUT YOU MISSED IT
I rerolled my main character when badges first came out so that I could get it. You could have done the same, but you missed out.
This one, in my opinion, is just unreasonable. This position says that you must be willing to just throw away hundreds of hours of progress and advancement for the badge. Furthermore, by now this wouldnt be useful for badge collectors to do, as all the special event badges would be lost. There was only about a two month window in which this could have been done before the Halloween badges came along. During that period, the devs were talking about implementing a Flashback System so that older, outleveled content could be experienced. Thus, there was every reason to expect that eventually our pre-i2 characters could get Isolator without rerolling, if we would just be patient. Since then, the devs have scrapped the parts of the flashback system which would have made this possible. So we should lose out because we trusted the devs?
(5) THE BADGE TEXT WOULD BE MESSED UP
It says you began your career on a high note. If you get Isolator at lvl 50, its not the beginning of your career now, is it?
With apologies to LiquidX, this one is just a bit silly. Its easily fixed. Or, like I wrote earlier in this thread, just pretend that you DID kill 100 contaminated right at the start. (The writer of your comic book just glossed over that part to move the plot along.) Its a role-playing game, isnt it?
(6) THE SLIPPERY SLOPE
If you give pre-i2 toons a chance to get Isolator, then to be fair you need to make all special event badges available to everyone, regardless of when they started playing.
This argument would work if we were talking about Celebrant, the 1-year anniversary badge. But were not. As stated above, Isolator is different from any special event badge. Pre-existing characters are able to get any and all special event badges as they come out. But pre-i2 characters are denied Isolator, even though we were there, paying subscription fees, and weve been loyal customers ever since.
(7) PERSONAL ATTACKS
Youre all just a bunch of whiners who want to show off your uber l337 status. Or You dont have it - HA HA get over it!
An ad hominem can be (and has been) used in all of the objections above. But theyre so common that I thought they deserved their own category. In my opinion, such arguments actually support the other side of the debate. After all, if your position is really so weak that you have to resort to tactics like these, then perhaps the opposing side is right.
Damn. I posted a lot more than I wanted to. In any event, I think that sums up the positions of both sides. Im sure someone will let me know if I missed anything.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A couple of weeks ago (before this thread started) I PMed Statesman about whether or not we were supposed to be able to experience all the content on one character. Here is his reply:
[ QUOTE ]
Ask your friend if there's any other MMP in existence where one can experience "all" the content.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now to me that is quite clear that he doesn't think that one character can experience all the content as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that's a fine statement if he had put in vastly more content than a single character could take in like most of those "other MMP"'s have. But that's not the case, yet.
Currently the only content that a new CoH character cannot experience in one pass is the Kheld arcs (if not a Kheld), past seasonal events, and removed content (e.g. Calvin Scott TF).
[/ QUOTE ]
True, but that doesen't mean there are not plans for more "exclusive" style content in the future. In fact, I'd be thrilled if they eventually put in badges that would reflect moral choices made during Story Arcs and Missions, thus showing the "evolution" of your character.
[ QUOTE ]
If this is the best argument youve seen, then you havent been paying attention. It doesnt really matter is actually such a lame position that holding it up and talking about it borders on the use of a straw man argument.
I and several others have presented much better:
(1) CUSTOMER SERVICE
A large number of people do want this badge on their pre-i2 characters. Allowing us to get this badge will make us happy. Happy customers are loyal customers and more likely to remain customers in the future. The quick growth of threads like this one shows that there is a large demand for the badge.
[/ QUOTE ]
You had that chance, all you had to do was reroll at I2, but you and others like you choose NOT to, and now you want your reward.
[ QUOTE ]
(2) FAIRNESS
Isolator is unique of all the badges. It is the only badge that has ever been released which could not be obtained by characters in existence at the time it was created. Anyone who entered CoH after i2 can get this badge, but pre-i2 characters cannot. Even those few who actually met the requirements for getting the badge before i2 cannot get the badge.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fairness? What about whats fair to those of us who DID reroll to obtain Isolator?!?
Both of your "best" arguments are highly flawed. So unless someone wants to come up with a decent explanation as to why those who choose NOT to reroll back in I2 should be allowed to obtain Isolator, I again reiterate... Tough!
EDIT: as you state also "
[ QUOTE ]
(3) IT DOESNT MATTER
So what if your character doesnt have this badge? It doesnt do anything. Get over it.
Well, it matters to me, and to many other people by all accounts. ... Its important to some of us,
[/ QUOTE ]
If it matters to you, and its important to some of you... Why didnt you earn it when you had the chance? Especially if it means so much to you.... seems stupid if something means so much to you and is so important that you'd wait over a yr to claim it
[ QUOTE ]
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Ask your friend if there's any other MMP in existence where one can experience "all" the content.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now to me that is quite clear that he doesn't think that one character can experience all the content as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well that statement may be for the common player.
But I have been through everything in this game with my main. "Everything"
The only thing I'm missing is the Isolator, and this is another reason as to why I personally would like the chance to get it.
Every contact is complete, I have every Souvenir in the game since day 1 up until now.
I even went as far as running Shadow Shard missions over and over again, and for those who don't run the Shadow Shard mission, it is very repetitive and never ending string of missions that has no ending.
There is nothing is this game my main hero has not done, except for collect the badge Isolator.
So yes, you can call me a completist as I do like to enjoy every bit of content in this game, I paid for it why not.
I can understand why he would say you are not intended to experience it all, is because it's a business comment saying they want you to roll alts to go back and do things you missed, hoping to keep you as a paying customer longer. But he did say "Intended" which means not suppose to but, it is possible.
To this day I'm still here and have numerous Alts that have reached 50 and a few that have not, and I plan to stay with this game to the end, as I enjoy it very much but to not award someone what they honestly earned is not a cool thing and I'm hoping in the future it is allowed to go back and get this badge or make a way for the people who missed it another chance to get it.
As for giving the badge the same name with different text, I could live with that. As long as its called "Isolator"
Since most people feel that we should not have this badge because it says "You started your career..."
Then have the badge say ....
"You have continued your career as a hero, by personally keeping on top of the riots of contaminated thugs preventing them from enter Paragon City"
But I would personally like the original badge as I too started my career there and did what everyone else did to earn this badge. I felt cheated when data mining did not exist and therefore I lost the chance to get the reward for doing what others do now.
[B]Leading Badge Holder in the City of Community[/B]
Owner & Operator of...
[URL="http://www.vidiotmaps.com/"]Vidiotmaps.com[/URL] & [URL="http://www.badge-hunter.com/"]Badge-Hunter.com[/URL]
[URL="http://net-warrior.mybrute.com/"][B][SIZE=3][COLOR=darkorange]Challenge My Brute[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][/URL]
[ QUOTE ]
But I have been through everything in this game with my main. "Everything"
[/ QUOTE ]
Impossible, there is no way you have all the arcs completed from Croatoa & Striga let alone all of the temp powers from them. Again, Impossible
You are correct, I could not get the temp powers because I had already past that level range, but I was still able to experience the content. As for Souvenirs, the contacts do not offer them, nor does the TF so I lost nothing there.
I was able to get all the badges even though I outleveled the zone. I was able to complete the TF, I was able to collect "ALL " of the badges.
If I was denied this content because I had passed it, then there would be a entirely different topic on the forums now wouldn't it
[B]Leading Badge Holder in the City of Community[/B]
Owner & Operator of...
[URL="http://www.vidiotmaps.com/"]Vidiotmaps.com[/URL] & [URL="http://www.badge-hunter.com/"]Badge-Hunter.com[/URL]
[URL="http://net-warrior.mybrute.com/"][B][SIZE=3][COLOR=darkorange]Challenge My Brute[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][/URL]
[ QUOTE ]
if I was denied the content because I had passed it, then there would be a entirely different topic on the forums now wouldn't it
[/ QUOTE ]
But you DID pass it... you passed the tutorial on your Main. And now you want to go back and get the reward for something you passed, when it would have been soo easy to just roll a new toon then. But alass you choose NOT to and yet you still want your reward.
I fail to understand what is so tough for you all to grasp... It was a choice that each of you made... To go back and earn isolator or not. Those that chose not to now want their reward, sorry if you get no sympathy from me.
[ QUOTE ]
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if I was denied the content because I had passed it, then there would be a entirely different topic on the forums now wouldn't it
[/ QUOTE ]
But you DID pass it... you passed the tutorial on your Main. And now you want to go back and get the reward for something you passed, when it would have been soo easy to just roll a new toon then. But alass you choose NOT to and yet you still want your reward.
I fail to understand what is so tough for you all to grasp... It was a choice that each of you made... To go back and earn isolator or not. Those that chose not to now want their reward, sorry if you get no sympathy from me.
[/ QUOTE ]
I did not pass up the tutorial on my main. I'm sure you remember that at that time the option to not go to the tutorial was not given.
Tremere, I don't fail to grasp your point. I disagree with it.
--Rad
/whereami:
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if I was denied the content because I had passed it, then there would be a entirely different topic on the forums now wouldn't it
[/ QUOTE ]
But you DID pass it... you passed the tutorial on your Main. And now you want to go back and get the reward for something you passed, when it would have been soo easy to just roll a new toon then. But alass you choose NOT to and yet you still want your reward.
I fail to understand what is so tough for you all to grasp... It was a choice that each of you made... To go back and earn isolator or not. Those that chose not to now want their reward, sorry if you get no sympathy from me.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, actually I did do the content in Outbreak just as everyone is doing now to earn the Isolator, I did not go back because there was future hopes in this badge being in the game later on as I leveled up.
And hey if you want me to delete my character and erase all the time and money and effort I put into that hero, I will gladly do so when Cryptic and or maybe you reimburse me for my time I spent with this character and refund me some money because I was forced to delete my hero to get something I should have rightfully been awarded in the first place.
If you deleted your hero to get a badge, then that was your choice to do so, maybe you have millions of dollars in your pocket and could care less, but me I work for my money and I know the value of my dollar so I'm not about to throw it away. And for a business to make a choice of such nature to even think of telling their customer base to waste their money in which they worked hard to get only to pay it to a company for entertainment to be thrown away is absolutely ridiculous.
[B]Leading Badge Holder in the City of Community[/B]
Owner & Operator of...
[URL="http://www.vidiotmaps.com/"]Vidiotmaps.com[/URL] & [URL="http://www.badge-hunter.com/"]Badge-Hunter.com[/URL]
[URL="http://net-warrior.mybrute.com/"][B][SIZE=3][COLOR=darkorange]Challenge My Brute[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][/URL]
[ QUOTE ]
If this is the best argument youve seen, then you havent been paying attention. It doesnt really matter is actually such a lame position that holding it up and talking about it borders on the use of a straw man argument.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen all the other arguments, I just think they're totally unconvincing. It's the only argument presented that I feel has any weight whatsoever.
[ QUOTE ]
(1) CUSTOMER SERVICE
[/ QUOTE ]
There are a lot more customers that would prefer to see ED or I5 done away with, or any of 1000 other changes that have been made to the game. But I'm glad the devs don't change things just because players ask, because most suggestions (including this one) are pointless and/or bad for the game.
Beyond that, it's quite clear that there's a significant number of people that don't want to see this, and so your customer service point works in their favor just as well.
[ QUOTE ]
(2) FAIRNESS
[/ QUOTE ]
Life is not fair, nor is anything in it, I don't find this to be a convinving reason. We're not even talking about two different powersets here, where one might be performing better than the other, this is just a badge (which, does not matter), that you want and you can't get. Fairness is completely irrelevant.
And again, it's just as unfair to those who did restart their toons to make a special exception for you to get the badge just because you didn't restart your toon like others did. It just doesn't seem fair to you. Afterall, if so many others figured out that that was the only way to get isolator, and managed to do it in time to get the other event badges, why should they lose out on their uniqueness, because you don't think its fair?
[ QUOTE ]
(1) TOO DIFFICULT TO IMPLEMENT
[/ QUOTE ]
The argument is NOT that it would be too difficult to implement, it's that the devs could be working on more important things with their time. This would be an example of one of your straw men.
[ QUOTE ]
(3) IT DOESNT MATTER
So what if your character doesnt have this badge? It doesnt do anything. Get over it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, if something doesn't matter, when does it not matter enough that the devs are justified in saying no?
If you respond to any of this post, answer this question. It's the crux of the issue, to me.
[ QUOTE ]
(5) THE BADGE TEXT WOULD BE MESSED UP
It says you began your career on a high note. If you get Isolator at lvl 50, its not the beginning of your career now, is it?
[/ QUOTE ]
You're glossing over this because you don't want to admit its a completely valid point. Everyone who earned isolator the correct way completed the task as it's stated on the badge, and now you want to change it, just so it can fit your needs.
[ QUOTE ]
(7) PERSONAL ATTACKS
Youre all just a bunch of whiners who want to show off your uber l337 status. Or You dont have it - HA HA get over it!
[/ QUOTE ]
By harping on this, you only make your position look that much lless fortified. If you don't like what someone says to you, ignore it. Going off on them for using what you consider to be personal attacks (although they are generally on topic WRT this thread), just makes you look bad. Respond to an argument if they have one, but trying to tell them how you disapprove of the method in which they argue just makes you look silly.
I have still not seen any argument more convincing than it doesn't matter. You may think that you have made quality arguments to the contrary, but in effect, most of those arguments apply to the people opposed to the change as well.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If this is the best argument youve seen, then you havent been paying attention. It doesnt really matter is actually such a lame position that holding it up and talking about it borders on the use of a straw man argument.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen all the other arguments, I just think they're totally unconvincing. It's the only argument presented that I feel has any weight whatsoever.
[ QUOTE ]
(1) CUSTOMER SERVICE
[/ QUOTE ]
There are a lot more customers that would prefer to see ED or I5 done away with, or any of 1000 other changes that have been made to the game. But I'm glad the devs don't change things just because players ask, because most suggestions (including this one) are pointless and/or bad for the game.
Beyond that, it's quite clear that there's a significant number of people that don't want to see this, and so your customer service point works in their favor just as well.
[ QUOTE ]
(2) FAIRNESS
[/ QUOTE ]
Life is not fair, nor is anything in it, I don't find this to be a convinving reason. We're not even talking about two different powersets here, where one might be performing better than the other, this is just a badge (which, does not matter), that you want and you can't get. Fairness is completely irrelevant.
And again, it's just as unfair to those who did restart their toons to make a special exception for you to get the badge just because you didn't restart your toon like others did. It just doesn't seem fair to you. Afterall, if so many others figured out that that was the only way to get isolator, and managed to do it in time to get the other event badges, why should they lose out on their uniqueness, because you don't think its fair?
[ QUOTE ]
(1) TOO DIFFICULT TO IMPLEMENT
[/ QUOTE ]
The argument is NOT that it would be too difficult to implement, it's that the devs could be working on more important things with their time. This would be an example of one of your straw men.
[ QUOTE ]
(3) IT DOESNT MATTER
So what if your character doesnt have this badge? It doesnt do anything. Get over it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, if something doesn't matter, when does it not matter enough that the devs are justified in saying no?
If you respond to any of this post, answer this question. It's the crux of the issue, to me.
[ QUOTE ]
(5) THE BADGE TEXT WOULD BE MESSED UP
It says you began your career on a high note. If you get Isolator at lvl 50, its not the beginning of your career now, is it?
[/ QUOTE ]
You're glossing over this because you don't want to admit its a completely valid point. Everyone who earned isolator the correct way completed the task as it's stated on the badge, and now you want to change it, just so it can fit your needs.
[ QUOTE ]
(7) PERSONAL ATTACKS
Youre all just a bunch of whiners who want to show off your uber l337 status. Or You dont have it - HA HA get over it!
[/ QUOTE ]
By harping on this, you only make your position look that much lless fortified. If you don't like what someone says to you, ignore it. Going off on them for using what you consider to be personal attacks (although they are generally on topic WRT this thread), just makes you look bad. Respond to an argument if they have one, but trying to tell them how you disapprove of the method in which they argue just makes you look silly.
I have still not seen any argument more convincing than it doesn't matter. You may think that you have made quality arguments to the contrary, but in effect, most of those arguments apply to the people opposed to the change as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT
[ QUOTE ]
Again, if something doesn't matter, when does it not matter enough that the devs are justified in saying no?
If you respond to any of this post, answer this question. It's the crux of the issue, to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter when the badge is removed from the game. Until then, anyone who has an existing character from prior to Issue 2 is denied the opportunity of getting the badge with that character.
Even though others deleted a character and created a character with the same name, they are is still playing a post Issue 2 character.
--Rad
/whereami:
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Again, if something doesn't matter, when does it not matter enough that the devs are justified in saying no?
If you respond to any of this post, answer this question. It's the crux of the issue, to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter when the badge is removed from the game. Until then, anyone who has an existing character from prior to Issue 2 is denied the opportunity of getting the badge with that character.
Even though others deleted a character and created a character with the same name, they are is still playing a post Issue 2 character.
--Rad
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, some of us were smart enough to create a new toon WITHOUT having to delete any of our pre-I2 toons
My I2 toon simply became my namesake & my badge toon heh, what a novel concept.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Again, if something doesn't matter, when does it not matter enough that the devs are justified in saying no?
If you respond to any of this post, answer this question. It's the crux of the issue, to me.
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It doesn't matter when the badge is removed from the game. Until then, anyone who has an existing character from prior to Issue 2 is denied the opportunity of getting the badge with that character.
Even though others deleted a character and created a character with the same name, they are is still playing a post Issue 2 character.
--Rad
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Actually, some of us were smart enough to create a new toon WITHOUT having to delete any of our pre-I2 toons
My I2 toon simply became my namesake & my badge toon heh, what a novel concept.
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Tremere, this is now the about the 5th time you have either stated directly or or implied that you are smarter because you choose to get Isolator. Perhaps your points should not include such a condescending and insulting tone. Rarely, have I seen this persuade someone to another's point of view.
As I said before, I am happy for you. But, this does not convince me that I should be denied it on my pre-issue 2 character.
--Rad
/whereami:
I've been keeping up with the thread, but have not had time to post. I just wanted to pop in quickly and say, GO PRO-ISOLATORS!
Fusion Force
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As I said before, I am happy for you. But, this does not convince me that I should be denied it on my pre-issue 2 character.
--Rad
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It has nothing to do with intelegence... it has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that I made my choice to Earn Isolator, you apparently did not. That was your choice. As with all choices you must live with the consequences. Thats the point. I fully understand that the truth ticks you off and you are upset, but I'll be upset if the devs cave and give you and otehrs a way to obtain something that I worked hard to get.
Somepeople just dont get it.
EDIT: for myself and others like me, our consequence was spending more time lvln up a new toon. Deal
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It has nothing to do with intelegence... it has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that I made my choice to Earn Isolator, you apparently did not. That was your choice. As with all choices you must live with the consequences. Thats the point. I fully understand that the truth ticks you off and you are upset, but I'll be upset if the devs cave and give you and otehrs a way to obtain something that I worked hard to get.
Somepeople just dont get it.
EDIT: for myself and others like me, our consequence was spending more time lvln up a new toon. Deal
[/ QUOTE ]
They were your words. I was pointing them out. I'm not upset. I did not take it personally. It does not make a bit of difference to me if you feel that way. Just wanted to point out something I had noticed about your posts. Take it as you will.
Once I again, I get it. I don't agree with you. I have leveled several toons created before and after the badge system is in place. I also have post issue-2 characters with isolator. But, that does not mean that I will not express my opinion and hope the devs allow pre-issue 2 characters the ability to get this badge.
--Rad
/whereami:
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(1) TOO DIFFICULT TO IMPLEMENT
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The argument is NOT that it would be too difficult to implement, it's that the devs could be working on more important things with their time. This would be an example of one of your straw men.
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Um, no, your response is another straw man example. I already answered this (in the part that you cut out). My answer was that the effort would be trivial. Remember the fighting monkeys? Of course you do. You just dont want to acknowledge the point.
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(3) IT DOESNT MATTER
So what if your character doesnt have this badge? It doesnt do anything. Get over it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, if something doesn't matter, when does it not matter enough that the devs are justified in saying no?
If you respond to any of this post, answer this question. It's the crux of the issue, to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Straw man again. I already answered this (in the part that you cut out). And you also seem to be confused about what *I* am saying. I have never said it doesnt matter so give it to us. Never, never, never once. Go back and re-read what I actually posted please.
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(5) THE BADGE TEXT WOULD BE MESSED UP
It says you began your career on a high note. If you get Isolator at lvl 50, its not the beginning of your career now, is it?
[/ QUOTE ]
You're glossing over this because you don't want to admit its a completely valid point. Everyone who earned isolator the correct way completed the task as it's stated on the badge, and now you want to change it, just so it can fit your needs.
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I didnt gloss over it. I already answered this (yet again, in the part that you cut out).
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(7) PERSONAL ATTACKS
Youre all just a bunch of whiners who want to show off your uber l337 status. Or You dont have it - HA HA get over it!
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By harping on this, you only make your position look that much lless fortified. If you don't like what someone says to you, ignore it. Going off on them for using what you consider to be personal attacks (although they are generally on topic WRT this thread), just makes you look bad. Respond to an argument if they have one, but trying to tell them how you disapprove of the method in which they argue just makes you look silly.
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This was also answered in the part you cut out. It was included for purposes of completeness. Go back and read my post closely please. Youll see it.
FYI, I am ignoring Tremere now. His personal attacks show him to be an individual of little to no consequence who has nothing constructive to add to the discussion. That you would defend his use of personal attacks as valid rhetoric says a lot about you too.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
Shame you have me on ignore because you are obviously ignoring my rebutal to your claims. Here is what you just said...
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[ QUOTE ]
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(3) IT DOESNT MATTER
So what if your character doesnt have this badge? It doesnt do anything. Get over it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, if something doesn't matter, when does it not matter enough that the devs are justified in saying no?
If you respond to any of this post, answer this question. It's the crux of the issue, to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Straw man again. I already answered this (in the part that you cut out). And you also seem to be confused about what *I* am saying. I have never said it doesnt matter so give it to us. Never, never, never once. Go back and re-read what I actually posted please.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, what was it that you posted originally?
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(3) IT DOESNT MATTER
So what if your character doesnt have this badge? It doesnt do anything. Get over it.
Well, it matters to me, and to many other people by all accounts. Besides, as you pointed out, it doesnt matter can go either way. If it doesnt matter, then let us earn it. Badge collecting is a part of the game. Its important to some of us, just like PvP is important to others. Just because it isnt important to you doesnt not somehow prove that it is objectively unimportant.
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Note the bold orange which I added myself... and my analysis of this shortly thereafter....
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If it matters to you, and its important to some of you... Why didnt you earn it when you had the chance?
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Still waiting for a rational answer to this. The only one I've heard so far is that " I didnt want to delete my lvl 50". Well noone said you had to, just create a new toon at I2's release.
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Well, lets look at the different solutions possible and the downsides:
1) Datamine for those who actually defeated 100 contaminated before Issue 2.
Downside: Requires lots of work for very little payoff, as very few of us actually bothered to smack around that many contaminated.
2) Retroactively grant Isolator to anyone who was here before Issue 2.
Downside: To quote a term thrown around in this discussion, this would be very unfair to those who actually DID the work before the badge was put into outbreak, those who were actually willing to delete their high level characters to get the badge when Issue 2 was released, and to those who have actually done the work to earn it now.
3) Create a new mission that would allow people to earn the badge, or simply toss a bunch of contaminated into a zone.
Disadvantages: This would require resources better used elsewhere for little payoff, and/or would completly nullify the badge and its description.
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You left mine off:
4) Go-Bad TF for level 50 heroes which sends you to the zig to Breakout as a level 1 villain. You lose everything except your badges and souviners (XP, inf, enhancements, contacts, powers, and security level all go away). Gives long time heroes an instant 50 levels of new content and lots more badges to hunt. Similarly a Go-Good TF for level 50 villains where you are granted level 1 security clearance and sent to Outbreak.